Starbrite waterproofing - caution

Tim R. · Oct 8, 2013

I think Sunbrella only recommends 303 High Tech Fabric Guard. I have used it many times and have even gotten some on the glass with no ill effects.

thinwater · Oct 8, 2013

Guan said:
Hi:
just to caution those 'who would be using this product.
I waterproofed my dodger sunbrella top with this product following all instructions and after a month noticed all windows are 40% opaque!
this can be only caused by the rain run off from the top as no product got on them.
contacted sunbrite for solutions n they say I did not completely cover all other surfaces as directions.
There were No such instructions n I checked again on their website n on the gallon can.
also I cannot keep covering the windows!

any advice re windows will be greatly appreciated.

;
Which product? They make several.

What window material?

I've been testing many and there are a few that are not safe near vinyl, but Starbrite w/PTFE tested safe.

I have spoken to Strataglass and O'Sulivan and they do NOT recomend or aprove any canvas treatments for use near windows.

MrBill_FLL · Oct 8, 2013

pics of the windows?

on the 'glass' try some Meguiar's Clear Plastic Cleaner #17 & #18 polish.

its worked on convertible rear windows, and bell cockpits .

capta · Oct 9, 2013

We used that product 15 months ago and are about to redo our bimini with it again.
Not had any problems and it worked very well, but we rolled it on and had no overspray.
I did notice the warnings on the gallon size, however, so I guess your container label was defective.

RichH · Oct 9, 2013

thinwater said:
I have spoken to Strataglass and O'Sulivan and they do NOT recomend or aprove any canvas treatments for use near windows.

What they dont tell you is that the 303 applied to a mainsail cover will slowly 'release' from the fabric and over time will damage a Strataglass window(s) of a dodger; probably is carried to the dodger by 'drips' of rain, etc. water. Even newly born Sunbrella will do this also, only slower surface destruction to the Strataglass.

Rick D · Oct 9, 2013

Hey, Rich H...

RichH said:
What they dont tell you is that the 303 applied to a mainsail cover will slowly 'release' from the fabric and over time will damage a Strataglass window(s) of a dodger; probably is carried to the dodger by 'drips' of rain, etc. water. Even newly born Sunbrella will do this also, only slower surface destruction to the Strataglass.

Is that unique to Stataglass or generally to clear flexible PVC's? I have had Strataglass in the dodger for 10 years. It's starting to have some minor issues but still very serviceable. OTOH, the previous PVC (good quality) was 10 years old too, but NOT serviceable. I keep them covered, but according to the manufacturer, it isn't necessary nor always desireable.

RichH · Oct 9, 2013

Rick -
I dont know. I built my last dodger with Strataglass and after a year noticed the degradation right under the drip line of my mainsail cover ... pretty obvious of what was happening. After a few years more, I coated the mainsail cover with 303 ... the degradation enhanced further over the next year. You use Strataglass because of its near perfect optical clarity; I now have visual distortion in 'just' that drip zone.

Bill Roosa · Oct 10, 2013

Not a solution for this problem but a way to avoid it compleaetly. When you purchase or make a dodger/bimini use the slightly more expensive water PROOF sumbrella with the coating on the back. Absolutely water proof for life. I think that if you factor in the cost of yearly treatments, window fixes.... the lower cost option is the more expensive sumbrella. A lot less hassle also.

thinwater · Oct 10, 2013

A few thoughts:

* I've had Sunbrella covers on my Strataglass skylights for 16 years and they are like new. On the other hand, the uncovered windows have ben replaced 2x. Thus, I can't see this damage as being inherant to Sunbrella.

* The additive run-off from the cover when compared to atmospheric run-off is very minor, I would think. I've tested samples of Strataglass, Regalite and O'Sea imerersed in these treatments for days and not seem damage, except for one (not one that has been mentioned) and that damage was within a few minutes. Additionally, I'm nearly certain the damage was solvent related, which has no relavance to long-term damage. I wonder if the damage is related to bird poop or a power plant. But there could be water repellant run-off to. I've always feared the stuff for that reason.

* If the drip was a problem, why not install some manner of awning to deflect it?

* Water proof materials are generally not used because of problems with condensation and mildew. Additionally, the coating will wear off at frame contact. Cost is not a factor.

* To cover or not to cover. I started using non-contact awnings a few years ago, and just the savings in bird poop cleaning were WELL worth the time. When I'm ready to sail the window is CLEAN! I would be careful about cover that flap against the PVC.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2013/09/to-cover-or-not-to-cover.html

Tim R. · Oct 10, 2013

RichH said:
Rick -
I dont know. I built my last dodger with Strataglass and after a year noticed the degradation right under the drip line of my mainsail cover ... pretty obvious of what was happening. After a few years more, I coated the mainsail cover with 303 ... the degradation enhanced further over the next year. You use Strataglass because of its near perfect optical clarity; I now have visual distortion in 'just' that drip zone.

I had a new center panel made from Strataglass and a new mainsail cover from Sunbrella in 2010. After 3 7 month seasons the Stataglass still looks like new with no distortion or degradation where the mainsail cover drips on it. Each of the last 2 seasons I have retreated my dodger top with 303 and also have not noticed any degradation where the runoff streams down our regular eisenglass panels.

RichH · Oct 10, 2013

thinwater said:
A few thoughts:

* I've had Sunbrella covers on my Strataglass skylights for 16 years and they are like new. On the other hand, the uncovered windows have ben replaced 2x. Thus, I can't see this damage as being inherant to Sunbrella.

* The additive run-off from the cover when compared to atmospheric run-off is very minor, I would think. I've tested samples of Strataglass, Regalite and O'Sea imerersed in these treatments for days and not seem damage, except for one (not one that has been mentioned) and that damage was within a few minutes. Additionally, I'm nearly certain the damage was solvent related, which has no relavance to long-term damage. I wonder if the damage is related to bird poop or a power plant. But there could be water repellant run-off to. I've always feared the stuff for that reason.

* If the drip was a problem, why not install some manner of awning to deflect it?

* Water proof materials are generally not used because of problems with condensation and mildew. Additionally, the coating will wear off at frame contact. Cost is not a factor.

* To cover or not to cover. I started using non-contact awnings a few years ago, and just the savings in bird poop cleaning were WELL worth the time. When I'm ready to sail the window is CLEAN! I would be careful about cover that flap against the PVC.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2013/09/to-cover-or-not-to-cover.html

As another poster stated Glen Raven Mills is offering a newer version of Sunbrella which is coated on one side. This is to replace the Fluorocarbon based waterproofing materials that just about everyone in that industry has very grave suspicions and environmental concerns. Such Fluorocarbon chemicals are probably THE most stable synthesized chemicals ever compounded by man and no one can therefore predict that far into the future what will happen. 3M was the most prolific manufacturer of these; but, about ten years ago ceased their manufacture (Scotchguard, etc.) because of these grave environmental concerns.

Covering clear vinyl with Sunbrella, etc. is probably a good and efficacious means to protect -- it simply prevents WATER from coming in contact. In all probability what's happening w/r to surface distortion of the vinyl - is the Fluorocarbons are very slightly soluble in water, the water being the transfer agent to the vinyl directly below, and the fluorocarbon is additively becoming attached to the vinyl and additively softening the surface of the vinyl or accelerating the 'molding aide' (dioctylphalate, etc.) compounds in the vinyl to come to the surface of the vinyl. These fluorocarbon waterproofing agents are only slightly attached to the surface of the polyester fabric, not chemically 'fixed'.
There is definitely a change going on when viewed under microscopy or SurfScan (incident light reflection measurement); but, not happening to that which has no fluorocarbon treatment 'above' it.
That the manufacturers of such clear vinyl window materials now also give warnings about reactivity to fluorocarbon waterproofing compounds in close proximity - seems to be something that should be followed.

The ultimate problem is entropy - the entire universe is winding down and someday will stop entirely. I have positive indications that this is happening to my StrataGlass.

Chris Patterson · Oct 10, 2013

Man. I love to read Richs' posts, that is always some info that is incredibly relevant.
Which actually answered a private question I had for years. I one time coated an outdoor hat with Scotchguard, and years later still repelled water. Then a couple of years ago sprayed a jacket with it, and the first time it rained on it I about drowned. Utterly useless. Worthless in every sense of the word. It was truly the difference between night and day. I wouldn't give five dollars for a tanker truckload of it now. Amazing what you'll learn here. In short, I know what I WOULDN'T put on it.
Hope I didn't sidetrack this..

thinwater · Oct 10, 2013

Entropy comments are too often accurate... and depressing. Keep them to yourself. I'm more comfortable with denial.

I've spoken with technical reps at both Stratglass and O'Sulivan Films and they have NOT researched this issue as much as you would expect; I suppose they see it as a user maintenance issue. Their study focuses on UV, aging in general, and short term effects of solvent products. The reason, of course, is that the marine industry is not their bread and butter (automobiles and computers).

They will say "more Imar," and I will add more non-contact covers, since the first ones worked so well.