Stainless Steel Question

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Mar 28, 2005
182
Oday 272 Baltimore
Okay, here's a lame question, but until yesterday I thought I knew a difference between stainless and "non-stainless" steel. One of my (smaller) winter projects was to sort my misc. hardware into a sort of compartmented box to make it easier to find the right part on the boat. I came across a bunch of screws that I was not sure about. I had the bright idea of using a magnet to check what was stainless and what was not. You guessed it, much of what I thought was stainless was attracted by the magnet. This includes some cotter pins still packaged and labeled "stainless steel." So, I now know that there must be varying degrees of iron in stainless. Is there another way to tell what is safe to use in a marine environment? Will the parts attracted by the magnet eventually rust? Any advice appreciated!
 
Mar 1, 2004
351
Catalina 387 Cedar Mills-Lake Texhoma
The Stainless Catch-all

Lou, as you have discovered, there are various grades of stainless steel. You will have to look up their mil specs to see what the different grades are. Some will rust and some will not. Your magnetic test is a good indicater of the ones that rust, but even some of the others will corrode if they cannot interact with oxygen to form a barrier. This is why you shouldn't put tape around a stainless steel part. But we do this all the time with our rigging.
 
S

Scott

All steel is made with iron.

Jim is right that stainless steel has to interact with oxygen to form a non-corrosive barrier. Stainless steel cotter pins need to be checked frequently for signs of corrosion, particularly when they are wrapped in tape to prevent abrasion. You don't indicate what other types of "parts" you are concerned about.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Lou , Stainless steel is generally

listed as 200 ,300 or 400 series. Within each series there are seveal alloys each with different properties and costs. It would take a short course in metallurgy to explain the subtle differences but suffice to say the 300 series are non-magnetic (usually) and more resistant to salt water corrosion than the others. Most of your sharp cutlery is going to be 400 series. Cotters are usually out where you can see them and bear little or no strain.
 
Mar 28, 2005
182
Oday 272 Baltimore
Thanks for the response guys!

(thought I already posted a follow-up, but it did not appear) The hardware is a mixture of nuts, bolts, washers, screws, machine screws, clevis pins, etc., etc. You know, general mixed stuff! I thought I'd be smart and weed out the non-stainless, but, unless I leave it out in the rain and see what develops, I guess not...
 

abe

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Jan 2, 2007
736
- - channel islands
Lou, one other thing if it says MADE IN CHINA...

...well it will rust because you never really know what you are going to get.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
don't buy from the magnetic source

Your magnet test is a good one. I am going to try it with my supply of stainless stuff. Find a new source for those cotter pins and be sure to yearly inspect your fittings.
 
T

Tom S

Ah yes. What exactly IS Stainless Steel

The definition “Stainless Steels”, are those ferrous alloys that contain a minimum of 12% chromium for corrosion resistance.That leaves the definition of SS fairly wide open. The "Austenitic" grades are those alloys which are commonly in use for stainless applications. The austenitic grades are not magnetic. The most common austenitic alloys are iron-chromium-nickel steels and are widely known as the 300 series (what we usually use is 304 ande 316 SS for Marine Applications) The "Martensitic" grades were developed in order to provide a group of stainless alloys that would be corrosion resistant and hardenable by heat treating. The martensitic grades are straight chromium steels containing no nickel. They are magnetic and can be hardened by heat treating. The martensitic grades are mainly used where hardness, strength, and wear resistance are required. (e.g. 410 & 416 series) The "Ferritic" grades have been developed to provide a group of stainless steel to resist corrosion and oxidation, while being highly resistant to stress corrosion cracking. These steels are magnetic but cannot be hardened or strengthened by heat treatment. They can be cold worked and softened by annealing. As a group, they are more corrosive resistant than the martensitic grades, but generally inferior to the austenitic grades. Like martensitic grades, these are straight chromium steels with no nickel. They are used for decorative trim, sinks, and automotive applications, particularly exhaust systems. (e.g. 409 & 430) Here is a link to discussion on this http://www.sppusa.com/reference/white_paper/wp_ss.html So what does this all mean? Well, unless it says 304 or 316 SS then it might be one of the other alloys, but that does not mean its bad it just means that its different. All the different "types" are specifically engineered for a different purpose, for instance one might need to have a greater strength or on the other end of the spectrum a greater need to resist corrosion (e.g. medical grade Stainless Steel). Normally one will note that very corrosion proof SS is typically very brittle (high chromium) and not necessarily ideal in a marine environment where strength is important. From another site on Marine Stainless Steel and its uses "Because there are so many misconceptions about stainless steel (a misleading term in itself, though not as bad as ‘inox’) it’s probably worth momentarily delving into the technicalities. As well as iron and carbon, stainless steels include a number of alloying elements. Of these the most important is chromium (Cr.). If there is more than 12% in the alloy, a complete layer of chromium oxide surrounds the metal. This layer, the ‘passive’ film, is resistant to most things and will self-repair in the presence of oxygen. Chromium-only stainless steels tend to be brittle, so about half as much nickel (Ni) is added to create a more usable material. 304 stainless (or A2) is one of the more commonly available and includes 18% Cr and 10% Ni. If you have a stainless sink or exhaust pipe it’s likely to be 304 and, as anyone who’s ever tried cleaning a sink or pulpit will know, is somewhat prone to attack from the organic acids generated by food, fingerprints and other pollutants. The chemical and food industries alleviate these problems by adding a dash of Molybdenum (Mo). Thus 316 stainless (or A4) typically comprises 17% Cr, 11% Ni, 2 % Mo and is widely used to store and transport some very aggressive substances. So, you might think that this is the perfect stuff to use as a fastener in or through wood, and from the sole perspective of chemical attack you’d be right. But we need to reconsider the environment in which the fastener is doing its job. Imagine a bolt, nail or screw fastening a plank to a frame underwater. The head, at or near the surface, will be oxygenated enough to maintain its passive film. The shank, buried deep in the structure, is likely to be starved of oxygen but will be surrounded by various acids and chlorides. In these circumstances, the passive film may break such that the stainless becomes ‘active’. This has two effects: firstly, look back at the galvanic series and you’ll see that the difference between active and passive electropotentials in 304, and to a lesser extent in 316, is enough to cause galvanic corrosion. Like brass, stainless can form its own galvanic couple. Secondly, without the oxide layer, the stainless will corrode about as fast as steel. The upshot is that stainless fasteners below the water-line - irrespective of the grade - may be no better than mild steel. Above the water-line (more oxygen and less electrolyte) such fastenings are fine, but unless you value the extra lustre of 316, there’s little point in paying for it." http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/metals.htm One other thing most people will notice is that 304 and 316 Marine Grade SS prices are increasing . I have heard the reason is mostly due to the price of "nickel" which has quadripled in the past few years (316 is up to 14% nickel)
 
Nov 13, 2005
59
- - miami
316L hardware

After you go thought all of your hardware save all that you think is s.s. Now you have a pile of hardware that you think is OK to use. But there is no Guaranty that the good pile is of a type of s.s. that wont rust the best grade of hardware is none as 316L s.s. Save your self a headache to come, with rust. Throw them out and buy L s.s. when you need them.
 
T

Tom S

Here is an even better link explaining Marine SS

Its a bit more concise. http://www.bosunsupplies.com/StainlessInfo2.cfm One thing to take away is that 316 keeps its "Stainless" properties better, but 304 is stronger and has better wear resistance.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Well someone delivered a short

course in metallurgy. ;)
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
302/304 vs 316

The two alloys most often used in rigging wire are 302/304 and 316. As Tom's post indicates these are in the same "family" of alloys. 304 is magnetic, 316 is not. 304 wire is about 15% stronger than 316 but it is not as tarnish and corrosion resistant. 316 is considered "Tropical Wire". Other than being a geeky type thing to know, it can make a difference when rigging a boat. 20-30 years ago 304 alloy was used in most rigs, when going cruising to the tropics, 316 wire was used and in many cases warrants one size larger wire. The quality of 304 has varied in the last 10 years or so, particularly in wire coming from Asia. The 316 seems to be fine. If a piece of Stainless comes from Asia and is magnetic, It's kind of a crap shoot as to what alloy it really is. If it is advertised as 316 and is non-magnetic, it is probably okay. Loos Wire (USA) has been uniform high quality over the years but has been 20% more expensive at the wholesale level. If you specify Loos for your rigging, expect to pay a premium price for it. When I was in the states, Home Depot SS fasteners did not hold up well, I suspect it was who knows what alloy, the fasteners that Ace Hardware sold seemed to be 316. After 6 months in temperate SF Bay, it was easy to id the HD fasteners ... they were rusty. This was 10 years ago now and things may have changed. I wouldn't toss the magnetic fasteners, I'd separate them. Look for rolled rather than cut threads and give them a weather test. After a few months, toss the rusty ones and save the good ones for jobs where they won't be seen. No point in tossing perfectly good 304 out with the garbage. :)
 
Mar 28, 2005
182
Oday 272 Baltimore
Wow! What an education!!!

Thanks so much all for such a thorough discussion of SS! I've sure learned plenty. I hope the quiz will be open book.
 
Jun 7, 2004
383
Schock 35 Seattle
Carbon

Tom S. gave an excellent overview above and I agree with Moody except 302/304 are non-magnetic. Two factors not discussed above are: 1. Carbon content. All steel is iron and carbon with the carbon usually not exceeding 1%. So 302 is .10% max., 304 is .08% max. etc. This low carbon content reduces the amount of carbon that precipitates into the grain boundaries of the material when welded and results in brittle weak material. More carbon (up to about 1% generally adds strength) This is where the 400 series materials come into play. They have high carbon content making them strong, but more brittle (less tough) than the 300 series. These are excellent materials to use in knives that must be strong and sharp. 440C is used in scissors for example. The lower carbon 300 series will have lower tensile strengths than the 400 series (400 series can be twice as strong); will be less brittle; will have higher corrosion resistance; and will be weldable. 2. Cold working: Since the 300 series cannot be heat-treated they must be cold worked to increase strength. This can result in improved tensile strengths by up to 2X or so, although ductility suffers. How much reduction a wire experiences when it is pulled through a die, or a piece is forged, or a sheet rolled, etc. will affect the strength. Casting is the weakest and most brittle form of metal and should not be used except for decoration. Stainless is a bad name for these materials. In fact, in the airplane business the same alloys are called "Corrosion Resisting Steels". When I choose a "stainless" part for my boat I look for how much strength, how much toughness (opposite of brittle), how much corrosion resistance is needed for the application. I avoid cast materials and stamped materials in favor of forged materials. 300 series if corrosion is important. 400 if strength is required (like a knife). If it is Chinese I reject it since I won't wager my expensive (relatively) boat against a two-bit component. When I can't really tell how that fastener was made--cold rolled vs. cut threads, etc. I rely on name brand US or Canadian stuff to do the job. Now if you want real corrosion resistance and strength look to alloy 6Al-4V titanium which has corrosion resistance similar to glass.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
some of the qualities of cast steels are

changed by heat treatment. Furthermore ductility and strength are relative terms. Remember all welds are castings but that is not to imply that they will fly apart at a slight provocation. All alloy steels are stronger than unalloyed steels and the content of chromium, nickel, molybdenum and manganese have profound influence on strength. Carbon influences the harden-ability of steel. Chrominum and nickel affect the corrosion restitance. Molybdenum and manganese affect the toughness of the steel
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
Define magnetic ... :)

A magnet will "stick" to 302/304 wire and not to 316. That's how we tell the difference in the shop. It's not stuck like to mild steel, but you can feel the difference when you hold a strong magnet to the wire. I can't feel the magnet pull when held to 316, I can definately feel the "pull" when I check 302/304. When I walk areound and check rigging wire on the boats in a marina, I sometimes play a game and try to guess what alloy the wire is by sight, 302/304 usually shows stains and looks a bit dull compared to 316. I use the magnet test to score myself. Randy
 
Sep 19, 2006
643
SCHOCK santana27' lake pleasant,az
TEST?????

hey no sh#% on the open book guys i learned more about SS tonight than i have 6yrs of welding thanx again kudo's to all you SS junkies
 
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