We just replaced the original aluminum spreader brackets with the Catalina Direct stainless steel bracket with through bolts. After getting it all back together, we rigged the boat. All the stays tightened up fine, except the forward lowers. Those are incredibly loose. So loose, in fact, that we are resisting sailing until we get them fixed. We tried to buy new (shorter) turnbuckles to take up the slack, but apparently 1/4 inch turnbuckles aren't made any shorter (per both CD and West Marine). After a lengthy conversation, CD recommended removing the forward lowers and measuring them and then they could assess what went wrong. (I suppose moving up the spreader brackets by re-drilling at least one hole is an option, but I'd like to consider other alternatives before getting to that point). We aren't trying to get the boat to racing spec, just to be able to sail it. Has anyone experienced anything similar? Is there a way to safely shorten the shrouds? Or, is there something else we could use (equivalent to a turnbuckle) that would take up the slack? (An couple of additional data points. At the end of last season the shrouds would get loose, but we could still tighten them sufficiently to sail, so the only change has been the new spreader brackets. And, what is incredibly odd, is that the aft lowers did tighten up ok so, if the spreader brackets are off, it can't be by much. Also, the spreaders are still perpendicular to the mast in the new brackets. We didn't adjust them on the upper shrouds at all).
Spreader bracket replacement and shroud problem
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This is a tough one, sight unseen. You can shorten the stay, if you have the room to do it. The shrouds would not change, nor the fore stay, or aft, as they connect to the masthead, and little you do with a spreader bracket would change that. I am curious as too why the aft lowers will tighten, and the fore will not. Have you tried to loosen the forestay, taking up on the aft?
You may well end up with new shrouds, or at least the front two. You of course know that you would have to take them to a rigger to get them crimped right. I believe I would go the course of making the stays/shrouds fit, before I put more holes in the mast.
But that's just me..
You may well end up with new shrouds, or at least the front two. You of course know that you would have to take them to a rigger to get them crimped right. I believe I would go the course of making the stays/shrouds fit, before I put more holes in the mast.
But that's just me..
Thanks. Good questions. I didn't think to add this detail. We checked and the fore and aft lowers are correct (ie not switched). We tagged them with tape before we did the brackets, and then didn't remove it until after we rigged. Then, after this happened, we rechecked.
We tried different combinations of loosening and tightening to see if we could even out the slack, but the best solution overall was this. We could take up the slack a little more when we played with the fore and aft stay, but then the mast was out of vertical...
If I take off the forward lowers to have them shortened, without taking down the mast, how much risk am I taking? The boat is in a well protected slip with very little tide or wave activity. I suppose I'd have to have them off, maybe one at a time, for a couple of days each. I will have to do some research to find someone to shorten them. Alternatively, i thought about measuring the forward lowers, then buying a new set, have them shortened, and then replacing them so they are only off for an hour or so. (I don't know their age, but the existing ones are probably pretty old, if not original.)
And, yes, I agree, I really don't want to drill anymore holes in the mast.
We tried different combinations of loosening and tightening to see if we could even out the slack, but the best solution overall was this. We could take up the slack a little more when we played with the fore and aft stay, but then the mast was out of vertical...
If I take off the forward lowers to have them shortened, without taking down the mast, how much risk am I taking? The boat is in a well protected slip with very little tide or wave activity. I suppose I'd have to have them off, maybe one at a time, for a couple of days each. I will have to do some research to find someone to shorten them. Alternatively, i thought about measuring the forward lowers, then buying a new set, have them shortened, and then replacing them so they are only off for an hour or so. (I don't know their age, but the existing ones are probably pretty old, if not original.)
And, yes, I agree, I really don't want to drill anymore holes in the mast.
Check em out..
Thank you, also. I really appreciate all the help. This was really an unforeseen problem, and perplexing. All this advice has given us several good ways to attack it.
I have not seen the brackets. Are the new brackets symmetrical in shape? Could they be on the wrong sides? Are you sure about the mast rake?
This really sounds odd to Me. But, again I haven't seen it. Pictures?
This really sounds odd to Me. But, again I haven't seen it. Pictures?
I agree about checking mast rake. Mast should lean aft a few degrees. See boat manual for spec. Also, wire rope does stretch over time, could be a combination of both.
By the way, I bought a brand new set of shrouds and stays from good ol' Catalina Direct last season, one forward stay was so short that I had to add a shackle on the end of it to rig the boat. Sailed with it last season and intend to measure it this year and send back if too short.
By the way, I bought a brand new set of shrouds and stays from good ol' Catalina Direct last season, one forward stay was so short that I had to add a shackle on the end of it to rig the boat. Sailed with it last season and intend to measure it this year and send back if too short.
Shim under mast base
Shrouds tend to stretch rather than shrink over the years. The cabin roof can collapse in the area of the mast step bracket, 1/4 inch can make a big difference if you add in the stretch of the cables.
If the cabin top has not compressed and no repairs needed, then add a 1/4 inch aluminum plate under the mast step thus making the mast taller, this will give you 1/8 inch additional movement at each end of all the turnbuckles.
Shrouds tend to stretch rather than shrink over the years. The cabin roof can collapse in the area of the mast step bracket, 1/4 inch can make a big difference if you add in the stretch of the cables.
If the cabin top has not compressed and no repairs needed, then add a 1/4 inch aluminum plate under the mast step thus making the mast taller, this will give you 1/8 inch additional movement at each end of all the turnbuckles.
I haven't checked the mast rake, so I will do so. I talked to riggingonly.com and there is a product "sta-loc", navtec makes something similiar, so that one can shorten the shroud without a rigger and a crimping tool. So, after i check the mast rake, and adjust if needed, that's what i'm considering.
One thing I noticed in looking at all the C22s in the marina, is that the spreaders with the new brackets all tilt up a little bit. The only boat with horizontal spreaders is a boat with original spreader brackets. Would that possibly contribute to the problem? I will try and post a picture. The cabin top isn't compressed as far as I can tell so I will look into the 1/4 plate idea also.
One thing I noticed in looking at all the C22s in the marina, is that the spreaders with the new brackets all tilt up a little bit. The only boat with horizontal spreaders is a boat with original spreader brackets. Would that possibly contribute to the problem? I will try and post a picture. The cabin top isn't compressed as far as I can tell so I will look into the 1/4 plate idea also.
The spreaders should tilt upward a bit regardless of the old or new brackets. The idea is to have the spreader create an equal angle to the upper shroud both above and below the spreader. I too felt you may have the forward and aft lowers in reverse, or the mast not raked aft enough. Also, on older boats which are raced, many put a 1" thick piece of material under the mast step. This also as already suggested would give you more adjustment.
THis is very true of the C22 boats. IF your's isn't angled up a bit, then it's not right but I don't think that this would make a very big difference in shroud length for one set of the lowers only. I would check the mast rake as already mentioned. Sitting in the water with no one aboard, our boat has a rake that makes the mast angle back noticeably. I'd like to think that our pointing is good enough. We can get a separation of about 95 degs.
I hate to question your installation, but is it possible that you installed the new brackets lower than they should have been installed?
It's possible that you got lucky with some of the lowers having enough thread to compensate, with the other already being on the long side and bottoming out before taking up the extra slack.
Double check the bracket location measurement, at least then you'll know if that is the cause or not.
If not I would next guess that you've inadvertently swapped the fore and aft lowers. The aft lowers would be longer, all other things being equal.
It's possible that you got lucky with some of the lowers having enough thread to compensate, with the other already being on the long side and bottoming out before taking up the extra slack.
Double check the bracket location measurement, at least then you'll know if that is the cause or not.
If not I would next guess that you've inadvertently swapped the fore and aft lowers. The aft lowers would be longer, all other things being equal.
I have a new style but apparently there is a difference in the lengths of the lowers according to my Owner's manual. On mine, the forward lowers are 1 1/2 " shorter than the aft lowers. Is it possible that the brackets or the lower shrouds were reversed?????
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I just read this little tip that applies to you. Thought I'd share:
COMPRESSION POST SUPPORTS. Some old style C-22’s have an additional weak spot that appears after the shrouds and speader brackets are reinforced. The weak spot appears where the compression post attaches to the top of the keel trunk. The post can actually punch through the fiberglass surface putting an additional load on your deck.
Source: http://www.catalina27.org/Fleet4/Tech.htm
COMPRESSION POST SUPPORTS. Some old style C-22’s have an additional weak spot that appears after the shrouds and speader brackets are reinforced. The weak spot appears where the compression post attaches to the top of the keel trunk. The post can actually punch through the fiberglass surface putting an additional load on your deck.
Source: http://www.catalina27.org/Fleet4/Tech.htm
jfrench,
I'm wondering if this applies as it's referring to "reinforced" shroud fittings. "... shroud deck fittings to the "new style" fittings and added aluminum backing plates to spread the load."
This includes replacing other parts of the original old style standing rigging besides the spreader brackets. I've see where there are added supports connecting the deck fittings for the lower shrouds to the bulkhead with a turnbuckle and also reinforcing the bulkheads and chainplates so that the stays and shrouds can be set rather tight on the loos tension gauge. When this is done, it can have a strong pull downward on the mast and cause this failure. I would think that this would show when the mast is down because then the compression post is going to be a bit loose. Another similar issue can come from a soft cabin top. It's a sandwich of fiberglass over plywood and if there is any water leaking in, the wood can rot.
One quick way to tell is to look at the mast step on the cabin top. There should not be any sag in this area. If the compression post has weakened it definitely will show a sag.
The North sails tensioning guide is what I use, it goes something like this: swing keel: set rake to 8" from the mast to perpendicular at the boom using your main halyard and a weight as a plumb bob, adjust forestay to get desired rake. Set upper shrouds to 28 using a loos guage, measuring from side to side to keep the mast in column(use the main halyard and check at rail to make sure it is the same). Set aft shrouds to 24, forward shrouds to 24 checking to make sure mast is in column, rake is still set, and small amount of aft prebrend at spreaders.
I set my shrouds 3 weeks ago, and they have stretched considerable since.
hope this helps.
Paul
I set my shrouds 3 weeks ago, and they have stretched considerable since.
hope this helps.
Paul
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