Why does everyone I speak to seem to be anti-spinnaker. I am just learning how to sail, and it is sort of troubling for me. Whenever I bring up the spinnaker people roll their eyes. And, when I asked one instructor about spinnakers - he said that learning the spinnaker was 'advanced' and possibly 'years' before I'd 'want' to learn to sail one (perhaps he's a bad teacher??); and the other instructor flat out said he didn't own one - so I won't be learning from either of those instructors how to fly one. So, if they don't use the spinnaker - why don't they? They say it's "complicated", but how tough could it be? Is it truly an unlikeable sail? Does it really cause that many problems? Or is it that they just don't know what they're doing??? Seems to me that the fun in sailing would be to charge down wind as fast as you can and then spend the rest of the day tacking and jibing upwind (with some wine & cheese) until you get home. And, if that's not what you do, what is it that you do out there all day long anyway?
Spinnakers - unlikeable?
- Thread starter Mary and Joseph
- Start date
- Status
Though I have limited experience with spinnakers myself, I think I can offer some general insights. Spinnakers are fun. They offer specific challenges that your other sails don't. They add spice and speed to the downwind runs which are otherwise our "break out the snacks and beverages" leg of the trip. They are particularly a challenge to launch and retrieve smoothly, and they can get you into special trouble in heavy wind. They are very difficult to deploy when single-handing. They require dedicated rigging. All that being said, you sound like the kind of person that will want to learn to use a spinnaker. My advice is to learn from and practice with someone who is experienced even though details and method will vary from sailor to sailor and boat to boat.
Have fun.
Clint
Have fun.
Clint
I'd like to consider that a Spinnaker is really a big muscle. Sailing most efficiency requires a bit of finnesse and constant skill. The person that wins a race may be the one that makes the least mistakes that slow their boat.
The spinnaker is kinda advanced and may require more than one assistant. It can get you into trouble under certain situations and so it's much more safe and educational to learn the finer techniques of main/foresail adjustments. As far as I'm concerned, the Spinnaker is good for heading DDW but that isn't the fastest point of sail. With a sloop rig, there is actually more excitement heading more upwind (close hauled) or on a beam reach if you want a faster boat speed with less heel.
The spinnaker is kinda advanced and may require more than one assistant. It can get you into trouble under certain situations and so it's much more safe and educational to learn the finer techniques of main/foresail adjustments. As far as I'm concerned, the Spinnaker is good for heading DDW but that isn't the fastest point of sail. With a sloop rig, there is actually more excitement heading more upwind (close hauled) or on a beam reach if you want a faster boat speed with less heel.
Not to quibble . . .
but everything I've seen and read suggests that even a spinnaker isn't at it's best DDW. If you watch a windward/leeward race, nobody goes DDW, they'll all be at maybe 30 degrees off the wind, then jibe toward the leeward mark when the angle is right.
That said, I agree, you need to learn the basics before you take on a spinnaker or A sail. They're big, powerful, and in the right conditions they'll knock your boat over. I've not personally seen a knockdown but I have seen a couple of experienced racers go off the course with a flyer . . .
I've got a loaner C22 gennaker that I'm trying to learn and it's supposed to be good for about 140 to maybe 90 degrees apparent. The one time we successfully launched it in light winds you could really feel the acceleration. Unfortunately, 5 minutes later when we tried to jibe we found out we'd run the port sheet on the wrong side of the forestay so that was the end of that attempt.
but everything I've seen and read suggests that even a spinnaker isn't at it's best DDW. If you watch a windward/leeward race, nobody goes DDW, they'll all be at maybe 30 degrees off the wind, then jibe toward the leeward mark when the angle is right.
That said, I agree, you need to learn the basics before you take on a spinnaker or A sail. They're big, powerful, and in the right conditions they'll knock your boat over. I've not personally seen a knockdown but I have seen a couple of experienced racers go off the course with a flyer . . .
I've got a loaner C22 gennaker that I'm trying to learn and it's supposed to be good for about 140 to maybe 90 degrees apparent. The one time we successfully launched it in light winds you could really feel the acceleration. Unfortunately, 5 minutes later when we tried to jibe we found out we'd run the port sheet on the wrong side of the forestay so that was the end of that attempt.
Yes, wouldn't this be because running DDW decreases the apparent wind far more than 30 degs off?
With limited crew, an asymmetric spinnaker is much easier to fly. They handle more like a Genoa and don't have the extra poles that make a 'real' spinnaker a challenge. With an asymmetric - you can always throw off the sheet if must be for your own safety - though it could damage the sail. I don't use a conventional spinnaker - I don't have a skilled crew enough of the time - my family is not up for it. I want the asym - but this years "explaining" of expenses to the Admiral did not allow for that mod. On a Catamaran, an asym is a real hoot - feels as fast as a Ferrari at 300kph:dance:. On a monohull, less so, but still faster dw than a Genny. Either type of spin is a really good way to spend a couple of BOATs.
For the C22: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?category=92
If new to sailing, yeah, I'd wait a while before doing this. Get in trouble and get out of it a few times first - not that you would try to get into trouble... Looking down at the tip of the mast in a thunderstorm microburst is an interesting experience
. 0-40 in 30 sec - the wind that is.
OC
For the C22: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?category=92
If new to sailing, yeah, I'd wait a while before doing this. Get in trouble and get out of it a few times first - not that you would try to get into trouble... Looking down at the tip of the mast in a thunderstorm microburst is an interesting experience
. 0-40 in 30 sec - the wind that is.OC
My wife and I came up with a little different idea for an off wind sail. We have a 150 1.5oz drifter that we made from Sail-rite. It has a radial cut and we use it alot. However we wanted a more powerful sail to use off the wind. I, like many others, did not want to go the spinnaker path. I thought that we could get a larger drifter with more draft, and have it hank on just like our 150. We talked to Sail-rite, and came up with a sail that we call a Spin- drifter. It has a much deeper draft than a drifter and is about 190 sq. ft. We made it from 3/4 oz nylon, and pole it out with our wisker pole that is stored on the front of the mast. This makes using the pole a snap. When we sail with it we drop the main to make things really easy. When the wind is up allitle, we really move with this sail. It is good from ddw to about 120 degrees. It could be even larger but we had it designed so the tack was above the bow pulpit. This way you can see under it, which is very nice. The only extra rigging needed is a down haul for the whisker pole, and the topping lift for the pole is used to store the pole on the front of the mast. With the five hanks on the luff of the sail, you can not foul the sail on the forestay like can happen with a spinnaker. Just another thought.
Dale
Dale
I think the anti-spinnaker crowd have never actually flown one. We did it for years on club race nights and had a blast. Only time you get into trouble if you try to fly it in too strong wind conditions. But it is fun watching the cockpit fill up with water standing ( dry ) at a almost horizontal mast ( not quite but it adds to the excitment of the story )
I think people shy away from spinnakers, because you need min. 3-4 people to fly one and become a great husband / wife fight when he tries with just the two of them.
Full spinnaker, requires a pole and all the rigging. You need enough hands on lines to get the pole up, spin. halyard up & sheets set without twisting the sail.
Asymetrical spins are easier to set and with a sleeve, very easy to set. Downside to A-spin is not usuable ddw. But, don't be shy, try one. Just don't try to do your first set in 20 knots.....
( not quite but it adds to the excitment of the story )I think people shy away from spinnakers, because you need min. 3-4 people to fly one and become a great husband / wife fight when he tries with just the two of them.
Full spinnaker, requires a pole and all the rigging. You need enough hands on lines to get the pole up, spin. halyard up & sheets set without twisting the sail.
Asymetrical spins are easier to set and with a sleeve, very easy to set. Downside to A-spin is not usuable ddw. But, don't be shy, try one. Just don't try to do your first set in 20 knots.....
I have a sym that I use fairly often. I don't (currently) race the boat, but often use the chute for weekend cruising. If you are trying to get from point A to point B for a weekend away, and it happens to be close to or exactly DDW, it's going to be a very slow and boring trip without the right sails.
Yes they are faster 30 deg off than DDW because of the increase in apparent.
Yes they are harder to fly and take longer to rig than a asym, but have better down wind performance than the asym.
I normally fly my spinnaker with just myself and one person at the helm (I have a chute scoop spinnaker sock, which makes a HUGE difference), but it doesn't take me 5-10 minutes to get everything rigged and ready to launch the chute.
I would encourage you to crew with someone who has one first (symmetrical, the asym is not that hard, other than rigging it's much like a large genoa), there is no reason you shouldn't learn to fly them and be comfortable with them, many people will pick the asym for their boats because they are easier and cheaper to rig (no pole), but everyone should be familiar with how to properly fly both.
Yes they are faster 30 deg off than DDW because of the increase in apparent.
Yes they are harder to fly and take longer to rig than a asym, but have better down wind performance than the asym.
I normally fly my spinnaker with just myself and one person at the helm (I have a chute scoop spinnaker sock, which makes a HUGE difference), but it doesn't take me 5-10 minutes to get everything rigged and ready to launch the chute.
I would encourage you to crew with someone who has one first (symmetrical, the asym is not that hard, other than rigging it's much like a large genoa), there is no reason you shouldn't learn to fly them and be comfortable with them, many people will pick the asym for their boats because they are easier and cheaper to rig (no pole), but everyone should be familiar with how to properly fly both.
Try this.
Read my alternative to flying a spinnaker in the post;
Anyone have the forward stay up as well as a furlow headsail
right now on page 3 of this forum.
Read my alternative to flying a spinnaker in the post;
Anyone have the forward stay up as well as a furlow headsail
right now on page 3 of this forum.
All that aside, I too was poo pooed, but much startled was my sailing club to see me in my C22 flying past the clubhouse, solo, flying the spinnaker, wrongly I was told later, but what the hell. Note: you can breach and sink a C22 with a spinnaker, not me, but someone on my lake certainly did.
Shipwreck, how does one sink a sailboat by flying the spinnaker? Does it just pull it too fast and the bow go under?
Most all C-22s have no flotation. If the hatches open or the companionway boards aren't in place and the boat lays down, it may sink.
So, with a Spinnaker flying and the wind shifts appreciably, it can do a broach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(sailing)
"Broaching most typically happens when a boat is on a broad reach with spinnaker set and there is an overpowering weather helm.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(sailing)#cite_note-colgate-0 This may be due to excessive heeling, swell that causes the rudder to be partially lifted out of the water, or because the stem digs in to a wave causing a strong lateral force. The boat will come quickly across the wind with too much sail set."
Some boats may be able to do a pitch-pole where the wind causes the bow to dig into the water and the stern to rise over but I've never heard of this happening with a C-22. More often with a catamaran.
So, with a Spinnaker flying and the wind shifts appreciably, it can do a broach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(sailing)
"Broaching most typically happens when a boat is on a broad reach with spinnaker set and there is an overpowering weather helm.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(sailing)#cite_note-colgate-0 This may be due to excessive heeling, swell that causes the rudder to be partially lifted out of the water, or because the stem digs in to a wave causing a strong lateral force. The boat will come quickly across the wind with too much sail set."
Some boats may be able to do a pitch-pole where the wind causes the bow to dig into the water and the stern to rise over but I've never heard of this happening with a C-22. More often with a catamaran.
Bilbo said it. A gung ho overachiever sent one to the bottom of Grapevine lake a few years back during a race, leaving about two feet of mast protruding from the water. Picture was in one of the sailing magazines with name of boat. After raising the name was changed to protect resale value.
I'll bet if this guy wants to play around with a spinnaker he can find someone to go out with him and make it happen. No, he doesn't need to go out this early with one solo, in fact, I'd start with just a genoa and learn from that.
I'll bet if this guy wants to play around with a spinnaker he can find someone to go out with him and make it happen. No, he doesn't need to go out this early with one solo, in fact, I'd start with just a genoa and learn from that.
With a good friend I tried to sail the bottom of my C22 in a quest for big wind and speed. We used a batch of head sails. I had a 80%, a 110, 150, a 1.5oz drifter and a symetrical spinnaker. That said , I would recommed a 1.5oz hank-on drifter. That sail is somewhere in the range of a 150 to 160% and you will flat haul the mail.
Yes, you can roll a C22 on her side and sink her with a spinnaker unless you really know how to handle and trim your spinnaker.
I don't mean at all to put down your abilities but by your posting about "how to sink a C22". I worry that until you have more time and ability you are just not really ready.
As Paphman said, his purpose built spin-drift works very well. When sailing down wind you need to practice the jibe/jibe approach and the required sail trim. Then try using a 1.5 drifter. There are big numbers of C22's packing symetrical spinnakers in turtle bags rotting away because the owner frightened himself and crew broaching because they wern't ready skill wise. Sadly, out of our marina an 18 year old kid died after the boat his dad and friend were sailing broached and sank. The cause was inexperence flying a symetrical spinnaker and the resulting broach.
So yes, I am questening your ability at this time. This is dangerous stuff done wrong. Join a racing team in your area. This is the best way to get the experence you need to move into the more difficult sails. Usually it is fairly easy to find a team that can use another hand. That also includes your wife.
Good luck, Ray
Yes, you can roll a C22 on her side and sink her with a spinnaker unless you really know how to handle and trim your spinnaker.
I don't mean at all to put down your abilities but by your posting about "how to sink a C22". I worry that until you have more time and ability you are just not really ready.
As Paphman said, his purpose built spin-drift works very well. When sailing down wind you need to practice the jibe/jibe approach and the required sail trim. Then try using a 1.5 drifter. There are big numbers of C22's packing symetrical spinnakers in turtle bags rotting away because the owner frightened himself and crew broaching because they wern't ready skill wise. Sadly, out of our marina an 18 year old kid died after the boat his dad and friend were sailing broached and sank. The cause was inexperence flying a symetrical spinnaker and the resulting broach.
So yes, I am questening your ability at this time. This is dangerous stuff done wrong. Join a racing team in your area. This is the best way to get the experence you need to move into the more difficult sails. Usually it is fairly easy to find a team that can use another hand. That also includes your wife.
Good luck, Ray
That is very sad to hear that someone could die like that. I am sorry to hear that. 'Tis true, I need lessons; and I have an instructor, who's teaching me on my C22. Course, he doesn't own a spinnaker, and neither do I, so learning to fly one is definitely some distance in the future. I won't be investing in one until I am a confident skipper. But, the Bay here is full of good sailors and no one flies spinnakers - I didn't see a single one all last year or this season either - so they must know something I haven't discovered, yet. So, I wondered if people elsewhere do - or is it truly a sail no one likes. I think they are exciting sails to see. And, let's face it, the prettiest of the sails, too, with all the bold colors and flying out in front of the bow. It is a show stopper. My Barnegat Bay is long and narrow and lays generally in a Northeast /Southwest direction. It is shallow (under 4') all along the eastern shore for nearly the full length. The wind blows from the SSW from about May to October. I would have thought a spinnaker would be a natural fit, here. But, it is a rare sighting here. Maybe its NJ. Sometimes NJ is a bit different from the rest of the world. Dunno.
Anyway, with a little luck (and cooperation from Mother Nature) today is the day that my Cat22 gets it's hull into the water. I'm pretty excited. I bottom painted it Thursday all by myself (what a PITA) and it needs it's mast stepped and rigging tuned and the mainsail put on and then I am ready to get it home to its new dock.
Anyway, with a little luck (and cooperation from Mother Nature) today is the day that my Cat22 gets it's hull into the water. I'm pretty excited. I bottom painted it Thursday all by myself (what a PITA) and it needs it's mast stepped and rigging tuned and the mainsail put on and then I am ready to get it home to its new dock.
Out here on Long Island Sound in the summer, it's fairly uncommon to not see at least one boat somewhere on the horizon flying a spinnaker. Even most of the dinghy racing leagues have a race night where they fly spinnakers. I fly mine probably on average, somewhere around 25% of the time I go out. I decide what course I want to be on, and then raise the most appropriate sail in my inventory, then adjust course slightly for the optimal performance (i.e. 20-30 deg off DDW instead of DDW). Last time we were out I probably saw 25-30 spinnakers, but then again there was a J-120 race going on
- Status