I have a Catalina 30 - 1988. The macerator pump failed and needed replaced. In the process, I discovered that the waste tank has dried solid matter in it. Aparantly it sat as a sludge and dried. It is now about 2" thick across the bottom of the holding tank. I tried to remove the holding tank to put in a replacement, but the tank is actually larger than the opening in the settee. Question - what can I use to dissolve the sludge to clean out the holding tank? The tank is plastic. Also, please respond by email to me at lmk0001@yahoo.com. Thank you. Lee
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John Visser
re: email response request
Hey, I'd like to know the answer too! (That's what forums are for, eh?) jv
Hey, I'd like to know the answer too! (That's what forums are for, eh?) jv
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Peggie Hall/Headmistress
Removing sludge...
If it's turned to "concrete," there's nothing you can put in the tank dissolve it...but if it's still sludge, just keep flooding the bottom of the tank with water through the deck pumpout fitting to stir it up, pumping or dumping, till you've flushed it all out. To prevent sludge from accumulating, flush your tank the same way after every 4 or 5 pumps/dumps.
If it's turned to "concrete," there's nothing you can put in the tank dissolve it...but if it's still sludge, just keep flooding the bottom of the tank with water through the deck pumpout fitting to stir it up, pumping or dumping, till you've flushed it all out. To prevent sludge from accumulating, flush your tank the same way after every 4 or 5 pumps/dumps.
Why not try Muratic Acid?
Lee: Why not try muratic acid? You can get it at a pool supply store. It will disolve most anything but plastics. It is very corrosive on metals. Generally used in urinals to disolve urine build up. What do you have to loose?
Lee: Why not try muratic acid? You can get it at a pool supply store. It will disolve most anything but plastics. It is very corrosive on metals. Generally used in urinals to disolve urine build up. What do you have to loose?
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
It doesn't work
Sludge in a holding tank is a combination of paper, waste and holding tank chemical residue (which is a good reason NOT to use chemical products). Muriatic acid would dissolve any mineral buildup, but it won't disolve the chemicals that hold the sludge together--at least not in any concentration it would be safe to flush down the toilet. Besides, if the sludge hasn't hardened, it can be flushed out with water. Like most things, prevention is easier than cure.
Sludge in a holding tank is a combination of paper, waste and holding tank chemical residue (which is a good reason NOT to use chemical products). Muriatic acid would dissolve any mineral buildup, but it won't disolve the chemicals that hold the sludge together--at least not in any concentration it would be safe to flush down the toilet. Besides, if the sludge hasn't hardened, it can be flushed out with water. Like most things, prevention is easier than cure.
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Bob Camarena
Access Port?
Do you have an access port in your tank? I installed a 4" screw-in, water-tight port on mine. It wouldn't be pleasant, but if you had one, you could break up the crud and remove it through the port.
Do you have an access port in your tank? I installed a 4" screw-in, water-tight port on mine. It wouldn't be pleasant, but if you had one, you could break up the crud and remove it through the port.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Sounds easy enough...but--
The tanks on many boats, especially on sailboats, are so inaccessible as to make an inspection port useless...you'd have to take something apart to gain access to the tank every time you wanted to to use it after you install it. At the risk of harping on a one-note song...the best cure is prevention. Flush the tank out on a regular basis.
The tanks on many boats, especially on sailboats, are so inaccessible as to make an inspection port useless...you'd have to take something apart to gain access to the tank every time you wanted to to use it after you install it. At the risk of harping on a one-note song...the best cure is prevention. Flush the tank out on a regular basis.
Peggie, what is the answer to Lees' question?
Peggie: We now are convinced that Lee should have prevented this by flushing out the tank. He cannot get the tank out of the enclosure. You indicate that acid is not going to work. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT IS GOING TO WORK? WHAT CAN HE USE TO GET THE CRAP OUT OF HIS TANK? DYNAMITE? PS: muratic acid will eat concrete.
Peggie: We now are convinced that Lee should have prevented this by flushing out the tank. He cannot get the tank out of the enclosure. You indicate that acid is not going to work. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT IS GOING TO WORK? WHAT CAN HE USE TO GET THE CRAP OUT OF HIS TANK? DYNAMITE? PS: muratic acid will eat concrete.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Read my first reply, Steve...
If it's turned to "concrete," he's stuck with it unless he wants to replace the tank. If it's still "mud," it can be stirred up and flushed out. Yes, muriatic acid will eat concrete...but any solution of it that will, will also eat other parts of the plumbing. A 12% solution is about as strong as can be used, but that's not strong enough to dissolve hardened holding tank sludge. In 15 years, I've been asked this question often enough to have tried HARD to find anything that will dissolve hardened holding sludge. If there were anything--at least anything that's safe to use, I THINK I'd have found it by now.
If it's turned to "concrete," he's stuck with it unless he wants to replace the tank. If it's still "mud," it can be stirred up and flushed out. Yes, muriatic acid will eat concrete...but any solution of it that will, will also eat other parts of the plumbing. A 12% solution is about as strong as can be used, but that's not strong enough to dissolve hardened holding tank sludge. In 15 years, I've been asked this question often enough to have tried HARD to find anything that will dissolve hardened holding sludge. If there were anything--at least anything that's safe to use, I THINK I'd have found it by now.
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Doug T.
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Peggie Hall/Headmistress
Yep...
And for as long as I owned Peal Products, I looked for that product to add to our own line. Couldn't find anything that didn't either also dissolve the plumbing, or wasn't so toxic or otherwise dangerous that it wasn't safe to retail...or both. And I continue to look... But it seems that some problems can ONLY be prevented, not cured.
And for as long as I owned Peal Products, I looked for that product to add to our own line. Couldn't find anything that didn't either also dissolve the plumbing, or wasn't so toxic or otherwise dangerous that it wasn't safe to retail...or both. And I continue to look... But it seems that some problems can ONLY be prevented, not cured.
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Bob Howie
Unfortunately...
and to be honest and fair, Peggie -- this time -- is just about 100% right about "concrete" sludge in the bottom of a holding tank (I can't believe I'm actually not only agreeing with her, but validating what she is saying!! Sheeeesh!!) However, to be fair, in more than 30 years in the family business of running the largest private campground on the Miss. Gulf Coast, I've seen the problem innumerable times. It's true; if sludge in a holding tank hardens, there's little hope of salvaging the tank. It was always a helluva lot easier to replace the tank than try to "unload" the old one. She's also right (sigh!) in saying that there's really not anything out there that will dissolve hardened sludge. To answer the main question about how to get the tank out of the space, ever hear of a jig saw? You're gonna have to enlargen the hole to remove the tank, install the new tank and then epoxy some "rabbetts" around the edges of the enlargened hole and cut a larger cover board. Not all that hard actually. The idea about installing a 4" access port in the top of the existing tank is a good idea, too, and it's what I did on mine just as a precaution. Again, it's not all that hard and takes only about 30 minutes to cut and install the port and about 24 hrs for the 3M 5200 to cure. It's a worthwhile project, especially if you don't like the idea of replacing your existing tank. Just get you a hole saw, a watertight inspection port, a tube of 5200, three clamps and go to work. Peggie's also right (here I go again) in that holding tanks require more periodic maintenance than just pumping them out. One might also consider NOT using toilet paper in them. Use TP, then put it in a sealable plastic bag and dispose of it in the trash (if at sea and beyond the appropriate limits, overboard! Bet that'll set the Tree-Huggers off!!) I'll disagree with Peggie's comment, tho, about the muriatic acid not affecting the "chemical" in the holding tank than she inferred binds the sludge and toilet paper. Holding tank chemical -- of which I am a proponent -- has no adhesive, binding qualities in and of itself. It's the sludge and it's actual weight and the fact it dries as a solid that albeit "glues" itself together that causes sludge to become a solid per se. Drop by my former city's treatment plant there, Peggie, and I'll give you a quick tour of belt presses and drying pits! And, just a recommendation to you, too, Peggie. Look, in a sense, you've taken some hits from folks -- probably me, included -- not so much critical of your expertise, experience and knowledge of marine sanitation...which, actually, in this particular area you're more often right than wrong...but your delivery! Sometimes, it just kinda comes across you think the rest of us don't know much and maybe we don't, but nobody likes having that pointed out to them!!! Least of all me; hell, I know I don't know all the answers. You must know something about what you're doing and you must be doing something right because, heck, none of us have ever sold our businesses to a much larger marine supplier such as Raritan! I read all the comments you made and you were pretty much, as we say in flying, "dead nuts" on the ball. But, hey, Peggie, how about more about how to solve the problems we all encounter rather than tell us what we did wrong that got us to this point? Sure, you seem to have some pretty acute diagnostic skills as to what caused the problem, but what most folks are looking for here is how to solve the problem...'cuz they probably got a good idea of how to prevent it in the future...and that's where your experience is of the most value. With Olive Branch extended, Bob
and to be honest and fair, Peggie -- this time -- is just about 100% right about "concrete" sludge in the bottom of a holding tank (I can't believe I'm actually not only agreeing with her, but validating what she is saying!! Sheeeesh!!) However, to be fair, in more than 30 years in the family business of running the largest private campground on the Miss. Gulf Coast, I've seen the problem innumerable times. It's true; if sludge in a holding tank hardens, there's little hope of salvaging the tank. It was always a helluva lot easier to replace the tank than try to "unload" the old one. She's also right (sigh!) in saying that there's really not anything out there that will dissolve hardened sludge. To answer the main question about how to get the tank out of the space, ever hear of a jig saw? You're gonna have to enlargen the hole to remove the tank, install the new tank and then epoxy some "rabbetts" around the edges of the enlargened hole and cut a larger cover board. Not all that hard actually. The idea about installing a 4" access port in the top of the existing tank is a good idea, too, and it's what I did on mine just as a precaution. Again, it's not all that hard and takes only about 30 minutes to cut and install the port and about 24 hrs for the 3M 5200 to cure. It's a worthwhile project, especially if you don't like the idea of replacing your existing tank. Just get you a hole saw, a watertight inspection port, a tube of 5200, three clamps and go to work. Peggie's also right (here I go again) in that holding tanks require more periodic maintenance than just pumping them out. One might also consider NOT using toilet paper in them. Use TP, then put it in a sealable plastic bag and dispose of it in the trash (if at sea and beyond the appropriate limits, overboard! Bet that'll set the Tree-Huggers off!!) I'll disagree with Peggie's comment, tho, about the muriatic acid not affecting the "chemical" in the holding tank than she inferred binds the sludge and toilet paper. Holding tank chemical -- of which I am a proponent -- has no adhesive, binding qualities in and of itself. It's the sludge and it's actual weight and the fact it dries as a solid that albeit "glues" itself together that causes sludge to become a solid per se. Drop by my former city's treatment plant there, Peggie, and I'll give you a quick tour of belt presses and drying pits! And, just a recommendation to you, too, Peggie. Look, in a sense, you've taken some hits from folks -- probably me, included -- not so much critical of your expertise, experience and knowledge of marine sanitation...which, actually, in this particular area you're more often right than wrong...but your delivery! Sometimes, it just kinda comes across you think the rest of us don't know much and maybe we don't, but nobody likes having that pointed out to them!!! Least of all me; hell, I know I don't know all the answers. You must know something about what you're doing and you must be doing something right because, heck, none of us have ever sold our businesses to a much larger marine supplier such as Raritan! I read all the comments you made and you were pretty much, as we say in flying, "dead nuts" on the ball. But, hey, Peggie, how about more about how to solve the problems we all encounter rather than tell us what we did wrong that got us to this point? Sure, you seem to have some pretty acute diagnostic skills as to what caused the problem, but what most folks are looking for here is how to solve the problem...'cuz they probably got a good idea of how to prevent it in the future...and that's where your experience is of the most value. With Olive Branch extended, Bob
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
It's not "attitude"...
it's lack of time to type long thoughtful replies. For the past couple of years I've had plenty of time to spend online...But after moving to Little Rock, I discovered I had to get out the house and get a life--the only people I knew were over 80--my dad and his friends--so I went out got myself a job in an office. My time online now is in quick breaks. In the evenings, I try to catch up with any questions I've missed, but even then I'm trying to sandwich it in between laundry and other household chores, and often when I'm tired. I could wait till the weekends, but I know people are looking for fairly quick replies that they can use on the weekend after they ask the questions, so I try to provide answers as quickly as I can. I apologize that my "cut to the chase" approach seems a bit curt and short...but it's not that I mean to be. I'm just trying to cram as much as I can into as few words as I can. It's just either that or quit participating altogether.
it's lack of time to type long thoughtful replies. For the past couple of years I've had plenty of time to spend online...But after moving to Little Rock, I discovered I had to get out the house and get a life--the only people I knew were over 80--my dad and his friends--so I went out got myself a job in an office. My time online now is in quick breaks. In the evenings, I try to catch up with any questions I've missed, but even then I'm trying to sandwich it in between laundry and other household chores, and often when I'm tired. I could wait till the weekends, but I know people are looking for fairly quick replies that they can use on the weekend after they ask the questions, so I try to provide answers as quickly as I can. I apologize that my "cut to the chase" approach seems a bit curt and short...but it's not that I mean to be. I'm just trying to cram as much as I can into as few words as I can. It's just either that or quit participating altogether.
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Chris Gonzales
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Bob Howie
Hey, Peg, quitting isn't the answer
Well, Peggie, perception is often more important than reality and while everyone can relate to hard days provoking "cut to the chase" responses -- try sitting in a jet 10 hrs. running across country in bad weather and see how short those answers and comments can get! -- no one really cares when they are just looking for answers, not criticisms. Y'know, the best thing about these forums is that a lot of people can get together, ask for help and get some pretty darn good advice which most of the time offers more than one solution, more than one perspective and avenue for achieving that solution. I don't know who cooked these things up, but they did a pretty darn good job, I think, and what makes it better still is that we even kinda get to "know" one another, warts and all. No one is asking you to quit participating, Peggie, because you actually do have some pretty good ideas from time to time. Just knock the edges off a bit from time to time and if you've had a bad day, well, just relax a bit. The world isn't going to go to hell if Peggie Hall can't offer a comment or two on every sanitation problem that comes down the pike and the more positive the response and the more fact-filled the response, hell, the more benefit to all of us it would be.
Well, Peggie, perception is often more important than reality and while everyone can relate to hard days provoking "cut to the chase" responses -- try sitting in a jet 10 hrs. running across country in bad weather and see how short those answers and comments can get! -- no one really cares when they are just looking for answers, not criticisms. Y'know, the best thing about these forums is that a lot of people can get together, ask for help and get some pretty darn good advice which most of the time offers more than one solution, more than one perspective and avenue for achieving that solution. I don't know who cooked these things up, but they did a pretty darn good job, I think, and what makes it better still is that we even kinda get to "know" one another, warts and all. No one is asking you to quit participating, Peggie, because you actually do have some pretty good ideas from time to time. Just knock the edges off a bit from time to time and if you've had a bad day, well, just relax a bit. The world isn't going to go to hell if Peggie Hall can't offer a comment or two on every sanitation problem that comes down the pike and the more positive the response and the more fact-filled the response, hell, the more benefit to all of us it would be.
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Daniel Jonas
Long days
Its been a really long several days, and I'm not done yet, so I'll cut to the chase....Thanks Peggy for all your participation! Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Its been a really long several days, and I'm not done yet, so I'll cut to the chase....Thanks Peggy for all your participation! Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
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John J
Peggy
Like you, I don't have the time I used to. But having been on and off this site for the last few years, I just want to say thank you for all your participation. The good bad and ugly. I have learned one hell of a lot from your replies, and am glad you are here. Thanks again John J
Like you, I don't have the time I used to. But having been on and off this site for the last few years, I just want to say thank you for all your participation. The good bad and ugly. I have learned one hell of a lot from your replies, and am glad you are here. Thanks again John J
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Andy Howard
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Charlie T
Hey Peg, the newbie needs you!
I'm new to this game, and the past two months have been thoroughly enjoyable and educational listening to Peggy's opinions. Her knowledge is immense and she's so willing to share. She's a blessing, so let's not beat her up. Hang in there Peggy!
I'm new to this game, and the past two months have been thoroughly enjoyable and educational listening to Peggy's opinions. Her knowledge is immense and she's so willing to share. She's a blessing, so let's not beat her up. Hang in there Peggy!
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Bob
Peggie
I don't care what Howie says (it's a joke, really), I just ordered some KO and CP to use for the first time. If this clears up my August, hot and humid, vent odors, then you are numero uno in my book. May even put you on my xmas list!! Thanks for always looking for new and exciting ways to solve our problems!! Always interested in your thoughts and opinions!! Bob S/V "Never Say Never"
I don't care what Howie says (it's a joke, really), I just ordered some KO and CP to use for the first time. If this clears up my August, hot and humid, vent odors, then you are numero uno in my book. May even put you on my xmas list!! Thanks for always looking for new and exciting ways to solve our problems!! Always interested in your thoughts and opinions!! Bob S/V "Never Say Never"
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