All this talk of tinned and un-tinned wire has me wondering why soldering is not reccomended for wiring on boats. Truthfully, I don't trust crimp connectors, so I solder everything, but I also am a freshwater boater, and in 30+ years of sailing, I've never had a connection go bad except a few crimped ones). In fact, a friend who I'd wired his boat seven years ago, just told me the lights were still working great on the trailer he dunks twice a weekend. But I've heard recently that you shouldn't solder anything on a boat due to corrosion. I'm sure this must be a salt water issue. What's the story? Is there anything to this? Thanks, Steve
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Steve, You can't get corrosion without water.
So if your soldered connections are sealed to keep them dry they are durable. Ask any plumber that installs submersible pumps. They slip on the connector ,solder and apply heat shrink and install the pump in 200 feet of water.
So if your soldered connections are sealed to keep them dry they are durable. Ask any plumber that installs submersible pumps. They slip on the connector ,solder and apply heat shrink and install the pump in 200 feet of water.
Vibration fatigue
I believe the problem with soldering wire on a boat has more to do with the fatigue from vibration than it does with corrosion. Same reason that wiring is not soldered in automobiles and why we use stranded rather than solid wire.
I believe the problem with soldering wire on a boat has more to do with the fatigue from vibration than it does with corrosion. Same reason that wiring is not soldered in automobiles and why we use stranded rather than solid wire.
Supported runs of wire or tubing do not suffer from the work
hardening effects of vibration. Prior to the use of solid state electronic devises all electronic equipment was wired with discrete components and stranded hook-up wire. Much of this equipment was installed in aircraft with reciprocating engines. Vibration was never a cause of failure of these systems. To make certain that the equipment could endure the vibration it was tested on shaker tables to simulate the conditions that would be expected in service.
hardening effects of vibration. Prior to the use of solid state electronic devises all electronic equipment was wired with discrete components and stranded hook-up wire. Much of this equipment was installed in aircraft with reciprocating engines. Vibration was never a cause of failure of these systems. To make certain that the equipment could endure the vibration it was tested on shaker tables to simulate the conditions that would be expected in service.
Steve, where did you read this info about soldering not reccomended?
It seems to me soldering keeps corrosion out. I can understand how Practical Sailor might conclude untinned wire is just as good as tinned wire, but I cant see anyone choosing a crimped connection over a soldered connection in a harsh boat environment. I think crimped connections are used in cars (and boats) because its cheaper. I think stranded wire is used instead of solid wire because its more flexable and less likely to fatigue and break. I dont buy the vibration thing at all. I think a crimp is far more likely to fail under vibration than a soldered joint.
It seems to me soldering keeps corrosion out. I can understand how Practical Sailor might conclude untinned wire is just as good as tinned wire, but I cant see anyone choosing a crimped connection over a soldered connection in a harsh boat environment. I think crimped connections are used in cars (and boats) because its cheaper. I think stranded wire is used instead of solid wire because its more flexable and less likely to fatigue and break. I dont buy the vibration thing at all. I think a crimp is far more likely to fail under vibration than a soldered joint.
Don't solder wires because of fatigue failure
A friend of mine had a few tours with the Navy as a technician in electronics and radar and then worked for the Coast Guard as a civilian and he said "don't solder wires" and the reason was because of fatigue failure. Another boat owner and electronics technician guy who works at the Keyport torpedo center nearby who has helped me with wiring and electronics items on my boat says the same thing. Those are pretty good recommendations for me. These guys are experts. I'm not going to argue with Navy and Coast Guard expertise and their reasons why or why not, I've got too many other issues to deal with myself, but this is what they've told me. Remember, diesels SHAKE and VIBRATE. The vibration goes to everywhere. If there is a wire that is unsupported enough that it can vibrate then it is susceptible to fatigue failure. Also, check any solder joint and see what happens when you bend the wire near the joint. You'll see there is a distinct point where the stranded wire turns from being flexible to stiff and hard and that's where your failure will occur.
A friend of mine had a few tours with the Navy as a technician in electronics and radar and then worked for the Coast Guard as a civilian and he said "don't solder wires" and the reason was because of fatigue failure. Another boat owner and electronics technician guy who works at the Keyport torpedo center nearby who has helped me with wiring and electronics items on my boat says the same thing. Those are pretty good recommendations for me. These guys are experts. I'm not going to argue with Navy and Coast Guard expertise and their reasons why or why not, I've got too many other issues to deal with myself, but this is what they've told me. Remember, diesels SHAKE and VIBRATE. The vibration goes to everywhere. If there is a wire that is unsupported enough that it can vibrate then it is susceptible to fatigue failure. Also, check any solder joint and see what happens when you bend the wire near the joint. You'll see there is a distinct point where the stranded wire turns from being flexible to stiff and hard and that's where your failure will occur.
The arguments concerning the loss of flexibilty in
soldered joints doesn't hold up in good construction. No where in an electrical devise is the connection expected to be subject to any strain or stress. It is not good practice to have an unsupport wire run ending at a connection point. All appliance cords are run through a strain relief connector. The power cord on you tools has a heavy strain relief devise where the power cord enters the housing. The UL Knot was devised to keep the strain off the connections. Wire ties are made so that multiple conductors can be bundled together for support and anchoring. Prior to the nylon cable ties we laced the cables with flat cordage.
soldered joints doesn't hold up in good construction. No where in an electrical devise is the connection expected to be subject to any strain or stress. It is not good practice to have an unsupport wire run ending at a connection point. All appliance cords are run through a strain relief connector. The power cord on you tools has a heavy strain relief devise where the power cord enters the housing. The UL Knot was devised to keep the strain off the connections. Wire ties are made so that multiple conductors can be bundled together for support and anchoring. Prior to the nylon cable ties we laced the cables with flat cordage.
AYBC standards
In the AYBC standards only a battery terminal can be soldered. The issue is stranded wire becomes a single strand when the solder is applied. If crimped to standard they shoulod not come loose.
In the AYBC standards only a battery terminal can be soldered. The issue is stranded wire becomes a single strand when the solder is applied. If crimped to standard they shoulod not come loose.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think properly crimped connection is often Mil-Spec
So I agree with John Nantz. I know that its almost counterintuitive but Properly Crimped (aka with the perfect tool & crimps doing the job) is supposed to be superior to soldering in most application. Though I am sure there are some Mil-Spec applications that call for soldering. When the military does things cost is rarely a factor and they will do what is "best" not the cheapest. Also I am not 100% sure but I think ABYC does not recommend soldering only. Actually the say -> ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit”. Though I don't anyone here was planning on only soldering without a crimp. Which leads to the next question. How about Crimping them soldering? Well that should definitely help with a poorly crimped connector, but from what I know a really really good crimp should become "gas tight" . That means the wire within the crimp should form a "gas tight" seal between the strands and the connector. Solder will not flow into this area so it should not enhance the connection mechanically or electrically. The reality is that a poorly done crimp is probably worse 'connection wise' than a poorly done solder so your mileage may vary
So I agree with John Nantz. I know that its almost counterintuitive but Properly Crimped (aka with the perfect tool & crimps doing the job) is supposed to be superior to soldering in most application. Though I am sure there are some Mil-Spec applications that call for soldering. When the military does things cost is rarely a factor and they will do what is "best" not the cheapest. Also I am not 100% sure but I think ABYC does not recommend soldering only. Actually the say -> ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit”. Though I don't anyone here was planning on only soldering without a crimp. Which leads to the next question. How about Crimping them soldering? Well that should definitely help with a poorly crimped connector, but from what I know a really really good crimp should become "gas tight" . That means the wire within the crimp should form a "gas tight" seal between the strands and the connector. Solder will not flow into this area so it should not enhance the connection mechanically or electrically. The reality is that a poorly done crimp is probably worse 'connection wise' than a poorly done solder so your mileage may vary
MaineSail, As I was reading your post I was remembering the
instruction I received in the Air Force and in industry. The wire whether it be for the end of a resistor, capacitor or just plain hook-up wire must be mechanically secure before it is soldered. A properly made soldered joint is a bitch to take apart. Wires are spliced with a western union type splice and soldered and the heat shrink applied. Bu as you say most people don't know how to solder. ABYC takes this into account and knows that a 150 dollar tool will always make a good crimp.
instruction I received in the Air Force and in industry. The wire whether it be for the end of a resistor, capacitor or just plain hook-up wire must be mechanically secure before it is soldered. A properly made soldered joint is a bitch to take apart. Wires are spliced with a western union type splice and soldered and the heat shrink applied. Bu as you say most people don't know how to solder. ABYC takes this into account and knows that a 150 dollar tool will always make a good crimp.
Even non-soldered..
Ross even non-soldered connections with multi-strand wire still need to be supported. At least 25% of the time I spent wiring was zip tying and securing the wires! ABYC even has this in E-11 so it's not just for a soldered connection. The solder joint that failed on my boat, causing this most recent re-wire, was only 12" before the first zip tie yet it still broke due to fatigue. Perhaps if you solder you may want to put strain relief AT the solder joint!! BTW Ross most well drillers I know don't solder they use StaCons and they are crimped (used to rep a line of well pipe).. I found one more wire today, speaker grade, that had FIVE splices in it's 12 foot length. The bad part was they were Western Union splices wrapped with electrical tape only. No solder and no crimp! It's no wonder that red night vision light was not working!!
Ross even non-soldered connections with multi-strand wire still need to be supported. At least 25% of the time I spent wiring was zip tying and securing the wires! ABYC even has this in E-11 so it's not just for a soldered connection. The solder joint that failed on my boat, causing this most recent re-wire, was only 12" before the first zip tie yet it still broke due to fatigue. Perhaps if you solder you may want to put strain relief AT the solder joint!! BTW Ross most well drillers I know don't solder they use StaCons and they are crimped (used to rep a line of well pipe).. I found one more wire today, speaker grade, that had FIVE splices in it's 12 foot length. The bad part was they were Western Union splices wrapped with electrical tape only. No solder and no crimp! It's no wonder that red night vision light was not working!!
Crimps are corrosion magnets
I have seen enough crimp-only connections that were the entry point for corrosion. The water wicks in and turns the wire green. Given enough time the crimped lug and the wire becomes an open circuit. I think using a little rosin core solder after crimping and then some adhesive lined shrink tubing prevents this.
I have seen enough crimp-only connections that were the entry point for corrosion. The water wicks in and turns the wire green. Given enough time the crimped lug and the wire becomes an open circuit. I think using a little rosin core solder after crimping and then some adhesive lined shrink tubing prevents this.
Mainesail re read my number 6 post concerning
cable supports ,strain relief, and bundled cables you and I are talking about the same needs but with different words that will get us to the same place. When we laced cables the lacing was continuous and closely spaced. When we finished on military radios we applied moisture and fungus proof varnish.
cable supports ,strain relief, and bundled cables you and I are talking about the same needs but with different words that will get us to the same place. When we laced cables the lacing was continuous and closely spaced. When we finished on military radios we applied moisture and fungus proof varnish.
Set Screw Connections for Shorepower Receptacles
First, with regard to the comment by Bay Sailor that terminals are corrosion magnets, if everything is sealed then there should be no problem. One boat I went on for a survey was very interesting. It was a Hunter 40.5 that was in charter for a while in the San Juans but was being sold in Portland, OR. It had a recent new cabin sole. Well, that's understandable because it made the boat look better. But upon further inspection it was found that ALL the wires within a few inches above the cabin sole were stiff. And this included the salon as well as the engine compartment. But above this level they were flexible. Hmmmm..... why should this be? Well, my guess is there was standing water up to this level which got inside the insulation and into the wires. The moral of the story is it pays to ensure the terminals on the wires are watertight. Needless to say it would take a lot of time and money to rewire all the wires that had a corrosion problem. Heat shrink and liquid electrical tape can do the job of keepting water out. While the use of solder may seem like a solution to block the flow of wire down the wire I still would not use it because of my greater concern about creation of a fatigue point. To save cost, Ancor (and other marine grade) heat shrink can be bought in large quantities which is what I do. By the way, a fringe benefit of using heat shrink is that it provides a bit of strain-relief and helps prevent that sudden stiffness you get with solder. SHOREPOWER RECEPTACLES The typical 30a shore power receptacle uses set screws but one of the problems with this is, again, diesel engine vibration. Getting the wires anchored right near the back side of the receptacle is difficult it seems that these screws are easily subject to becoming loose. Vibration is one problem but I think the soft copper wire is another. It looses its resistance to the set screw over time. It's a good idea to visit this connection once in a while to ensure the screws still have a solid set.
First, with regard to the comment by Bay Sailor that terminals are corrosion magnets, if everything is sealed then there should be no problem. One boat I went on for a survey was very interesting. It was a Hunter 40.5 that was in charter for a while in the San Juans but was being sold in Portland, OR. It had a recent new cabin sole. Well, that's understandable because it made the boat look better. But upon further inspection it was found that ALL the wires within a few inches above the cabin sole were stiff. And this included the salon as well as the engine compartment. But above this level they were flexible. Hmmmm..... why should this be? Well, my guess is there was standing water up to this level which got inside the insulation and into the wires. The moral of the story is it pays to ensure the terminals on the wires are watertight. Needless to say it would take a lot of time and money to rewire all the wires that had a corrosion problem. Heat shrink and liquid electrical tape can do the job of keepting water out. While the use of solder may seem like a solution to block the flow of wire down the wire I still would not use it because of my greater concern about creation of a fatigue point. To save cost, Ancor (and other marine grade) heat shrink can be bought in large quantities which is what I do. By the way, a fringe benefit of using heat shrink is that it provides a bit of strain-relief and helps prevent that sudden stiffness you get with solder. SHOREPOWER RECEPTACLES The typical 30a shore power receptacle uses set screws but one of the problems with this is, again, diesel engine vibration. Getting the wires anchored right near the back side of the receptacle is difficult it seems that these screws are easily subject to becoming loose. Vibration is one problem but I think the soft copper wire is another. It looses its resistance to the set screw over time. It's a good idea to visit this connection once in a while to ensure the screws still have a solid set.
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