So, What's With Catamarans?

[Rick D]

Just puzzled here. There obviously is huge interest in cats. All you have to do is see the mass-market sail mag's. What I don't understand as a west coast sailor is how they sell them to the larger market. Specifically, there are few slips which will accommodate them, many yards can't haul them, and there are just so many end-ties available. My marina has lots of double slips for cats but few takers, which of itself amazes me. Of course, slip fees are based upon a square foot measurement, so essentially, it's double the cost. Is it different on the right coast? Are mooring fields less crowded? Are there fewer fingers in slips to afford more flexibility? There must be a lot being built; where do they go???

 

[centerline]

my opinion doesnt really count or matter cuz I am not a fan of large sailing cats, (although the small hobies are a lot of fun) and dont care where they go or wonder about it

I think the sailing cats are better suited for low latitude waters, and they do excel in that area around the globe. there are lots of places besides the west coat, that can take a much higher volume of boats than we even have room for, and im sure the builders have found, that as the hype continues to grow, pushing advertising in the areas that normally arent so friendly to that type of craft, still pays off because they know that not everyone who buys a new boat is going to sail it in the ocean... or sail it at all for that matter.
I know of a couple of multimillion dollar boats that have never left the dock in the years since they were new(less than ten years old each)... but a lot of entertaining goes on in them.

just because you see something being pushed in your local sailing magazine, doesnt mean anything more than "we are willing to take your money if you want one of our boats, where ever you are"...

 

[RECESS]

In the Gulf Coast there is no lack of slips to hold them. We pay $285 for our Pearson 323. Our friends that have a Endeavor 30 Cat pay $300 for their slip that is much wider. There are also many mooring fields available all around Florida.

 

[25yearslater]

Like all things sailing there are always trends that tend to come and go. I am sure your remember the winged keel Rick. I don't know of any being currently manufactured. I would hazard a guess that the America's Cup has sparked the latest trend in cats much like the fashion industry has all it's trends. The drawback I have seen with cats of some size is cabin size and arrangement. Unless one is willing to shell out huge money they remain tight and limited in their usable space. I am waiting to see if the kanting keel becomes all the rage. For the vast majority the monohull fixed keel sailboat isn't glamourous or sexy but they are like the girl or guy you eventually marry. They get the job done reliably and make wonderful companions.

 

[shemandr]

In our area there are a few Gemini cats we see on the water. And one trimaran I can think of. I'm hard pressed to name any others of a cruising variety. We had a Gunboat in one of our Whitebread Regattas. It didn't do very well. It came from out of the area. There's an assortment of off the beach cats but we have a hard time mustering enough to form a division for racing. It's like …well... herding cats!

 

[RECESS]

One of the drawbacks of a cruising cat is they do not point into the wind at all. They are also slow compared to the cats that fly a hull. The banging of water against the center is a terrible sound. They are comfortable with friends that don't sail as they do not heel. It seems like if you are going to do some extended cruising you better make sure the engine is in great shape, as you are going to use it a lot.

All that said, my wife wants one.

 

[thinwater]

Another one of those threads. And you all are hysterical.

Rick. Look at a map. Yes, the east coast is obviously full of bay and inlets. No, I have never paid more for a slip or mooring. No, I have never been on a waiting list and never found a town without transient slips. I have anchored in 3-5 feet of water many times, when the center of the anchorage was full of monos and most boats had to go elsewhere; there is lots of shallows in the Chesapeake. at least in my area, finger piers are rare; boats are between 4 pilings, and wide slips are reasonably common (I pay $100/mo. for 45 x 20 slip).

Centerline. I sail all winter. Dock queens are about the owner, not the boat. There are both monohulls and cats that are designed to be dock queens!... though I'll admit there are more cats like that. On the other hand, I have cat friends that left home years ago.

Recess. I seriously doubt you could stay with me to windward. 8 knots at 45 degrees (over ground) true is common for me, on autopilot kicking back. I don't pound... ever. While there are cats that don't go to windward, that is a design choice, not a characteristic. Remember, charter cats are built for poor monohull sailors that don't know how to gauge wind (I'm not implying you don't, I'm implying they spec moron-proof boats); many are under canvassed and over-dodgered.

Yes, they are priced high, in some cases too high. On the other hand, they have more room and often more speed, and are best compared to a mono ~ 3-5 feet longer. Some are very high quality, some are not, and the market does not always know the difference. If my PDQ 32/34 was compared to a high quality 36-37, they would be very similar in many regards. I generally find I go to windward with 38- to 40-foot monos.

Yes, there are compromises. The east cost abounds with shallow water. Cats excel at anchor; one deck, open living, no up-and-down the ladder (bad with poor knees). The rig is smaller for the same speed and accommodation, making them physically easier to sail. They have a nasty quick motion in chop. There are 2 engines to maintain (but one is always working!). Although they can handle a blow, seamanship is different and not as well understood (it helps a lot if you learned on a beach cat). You are more likely to be on a bulkhead than between pilings. Capsize is possible, but generally requires multiple blunders. I cruised a 27'/1200 pound performance cat thousands of miles with a 10 year old for crew; we kept her on her feet through prudence, made speed no mono could touch, and went places no keel would dare.

And yet I have no prejudice against monos and would cruise one in a heartbeat. Just different rules and different seamanship.

 

[Jackdaw]

We have a few Fountaine-Pajots at our marina. The are beautiful boats. One was bought new, and the other out of charter. They are VERY expensive to move over land. Most are built in France or South Africa, and most come to the new world on their own bottoms. Lot in charter in the BVIs, so they will naturally spread from there as the fleets mature.

 

[RECESS]

Another one of those threads. And you all are hysterical.



Recess. I seriously doubt you could stay with me to windward. 8 knots at 45 degrees (over ground) true is common for me, on autopilot kicking back. I don't pound... ever. While there are cats that don't go to windward, that is a design choice, not a characteristic. Remember, charter cats are built for poor monohull sailors that don't know how to gauge wind (I'm not implying you don't, I'm implying they spec moron-proof boats); many are under canvassed and over-dodgered.

.

I sail out of Panama City. There are several Geminis and Endeavors in the 30 foot range. When we all sail to Shell Island the wind is usually coming straight in through the jetties. Both the Endeavors and Geminis have to fall pretty far off the wind on their tacks. They are not good at sailing up wind because they have to fall so far off of it. One of the sailors is a good friend and has been sailing a long time. He can only get as close as his rig will allow him to do. I am sure their are much better performance catamarans but I think the Gemini and Endeavor are pretty close to the average cruising cat. I see a lot more Geminis and Endeavors in Florida than other brands. There are some smoking fast monohulls too, but they do not represent the average 30 foot monohull out there. Most of the Geminis and Endeavors have a completely enclosed cockpit, it almost like having a 1/3 more living space. I honestly never thought how having all that canvas effects speed, but I am sure it slows them down now that you mention over dodgered.

I think everything in sailing is a compromise. My wife would give up our Pearson in a second to move into a Gemini or Endeavor catamaran. Our Pearson sails at 7 knots hull speed. faster on favorable tides.

 

[thinwater]

I sail out of Panama City. There are several Geminis and Endeavors in the 30 foot range. When we all sail to Shell Island the wind is usually coming straight in through the jetties. Both the Endeavors and Geminis have to fall pretty far off the wind on their tacks. They are not good at sailing up wind because they have to fall so far off of it. One of the sailors is a good friend and has been sailing a long time. He can only get as close as his rig will allow him to do. I am sure their are much better performance catamarans but I think the Gemini and Endeavor are pretty close to the average cruising cat. I see a lot more Geminis and Endeavors in Florida than other brands. There are some smoking fast monohulls too, but they do not represent the average 30 foot monohull out there. Most of the Geminis and Endeavors have a completely enclosed cockpit, it almost like having a 1/3 more living space. I honestly never thought how having all that canvas effects speed, but I am sure it slows them down now that you mention over dodgered.

I think everything in sailing is a compromise. My wife would give up our Pearson in a second to move into a Gemini or Endeavor catamaran. Our Pearson sails at 7 knots hull speed. faster on favorable tides.

While Geminis and Endeavors are common, I would not call them average. Both are built to a price point and to meet specific needs.

Little clearance. They are both badd for pounding. A PD

 

[thinwater]

I sail out of Panama City. There are several Geminis and Endeavors in the 30 foot range. When we all sail to Shell Island the wind is usually coming straight in through the jetties. Both the Endeavors and Geminis have to fall pretty far off the wind on their tacks. They are not good at sailing up wind because they have to fall so far off of it. One of the sailors is a good friend and has been sailing a long time. He can only get as close as his rig will allow him to do. I am sure their are much better performance catamarans but I think the Gemini and Endeavor are pretty close to the average cruising cat. I see a lot more Geminis and Endeavors in Florida than other brands. There are some smoking fast monohulls too, but they do not represent the average 30 foot monohull out there. Most of the Geminis and Endeavors have a completely enclosed cockpit, it almost like having a 1/3 more living space. I honestly never thought how having all that canvas effects speed, but I am sure it slows them down now that you mention over dodgered.

I think everything in sailing is a compromise. My wife would give up our Pearson in a second to move into a Gemini or Endeavor catamaran. Our Pearson sails at 7 knots hull speed. faster on favorable tides.

Though Gemini and Endevor are common, they are not average and they are built to a price point and a particular set of compromises.

Pounding. Both are low to the water and pound. A PDQ has triple the clearance. Why? Gemini values 6'5" headroom on the bridge deck too much, IMHO. Can have everything on a small cat.

Windward. Envdevors have tiny keels. Geminis are good to windward... on smooth water. As soon as they pound, not so much. Also, sailing a boat with LAR keels requires a different touch than with a deeper keel; gotta keep it moving, though you do not have to fall off so much. Sail balance is also important. They may just not have it figured out, as it is more difficult to learn than monohull windward sailing.

Beam. Both are rather narrow, which hinders their ability to press hard. A compromise to make more slips available.

Good boats, within their limits. The Gemini, particularly, packs a lot of speed, range (one went around the world), and livability in a small package. I wish they had more clearance and better helm visibility (I hate that part), but they've got many good points.

Consider some other brands, in your search. And your going to love a 15 knot top end! You'll like the shallow draft as well.

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2013/10/pdq-3234-tacks-through-less-than-90.html

 

[RECESS]

Great info thanks. A friend that vacations in the BVI and charters Cats told to me to stay clear of the Lagoons that come off the charter fleets. Any thoughts on that? There seems to be quite a few that go up for sale. My friends says they cut corners with the Lagoons in production and he is cautious as to how they will would up long term. He said there are bulkhead separation with too many of them.

 

[capta]

Most of the cats are just used as condos on the water and couldn't sail their way out of a paper bag. They are excellent for what they are designed for, but if you want a sailing cat, you are going to find it a completely different animal.
There are literally hundreds (perhaps thousands) of bareboat and term charter cats down here in the Antilles. Most motor between anchorages and I've heard tell that the charter fleets are encouraging owners to invest in power cats as sailing just isn't why most folks on vacation charter cats.
Just like monohulls, the manufacturers of cats for the bareboat industry do not put the same quality, care and equipment into those boats as they would a private construction. For instance, an ex-bareboat 50' Bene with the 4 cabin layout, after completing it's charter contract, can be had for as little as 50k. One would think it a lot of boat for the money, but most likely it will be a nightmare boat owner/operator experience.
This is NOT a criticism of all cats, or any cat for that matter, just the observations of someone who sees 10 to 20 cats underway every day. There are 10 in the anchorage right now, but only one, a Catana I believe, is a sailing cat.

 

[Tom J]

Leave it to the Left Coast to charge by the square foot. I worked as a dock master at a marina in Massachusetts, and we charged only by the linear foot. Once, we had a 70' catamaran tied to our face dock. She had a 35' beam and almost blocked the channel to the yacht club. Made a few people unhappy, but she was quite a boat to see!

 

[Rick D]

Learned Something...

...I guess I just had some regional cranial blockage. I had no idea the SE USA had so much available slippage and moorage compatible with catamarans. Certainly, the shallow draft would be an advantage. I am impressed with the Hunter-built Geminis. Nice fit and finish, twin engines etc. I wonder if they will point as high with the stub keels. Regardless, given the vacancies in SoCal marinas, the impossibility of building new ones, the layout of current marinas, there isn't a likelihood of a big cat presence around here.

 

[rfrye1]

Interesting post. We try to do a bareboat "somewhere" every year or two as an excuse to travel around the world. Always get a 40 footish cat and share with friends. I have to admit the living space is awesome. Having sundowners with good friends in some little foreign harbor is pretty cool. But as skipper having to park (med moor) that's 42'x22' in a 10-15 kt cross wind, when the quay is already packed, and of course there is 10,000 people watching...... Of course you say "but you have Twin engines"!
One time in Croatia, the linkage pin on the starboard eng transmission fell off and the transmission was "stuck" in forward. All find and good until I entered the very small harbor and started to back into the quay. Every time I accelerated in starboard reverse, it went forward. My brain was having a really hard time trying to figure out why the boat wasn't doing what I was telling it to do. Of course my crew was looking at me like I had completely lost my mind, and they were ALL TELLING ME WHAT TO DO. After what seemed like an hour (10 min?)I figured it out and with the help of others get her in. I crawled down into the eng compartment and there was the linkage pin laying there undone. I still have nightmares about almost crashing this $500k cat into the cement quay!

Bob

 

[Salty]

I tell you what, if you don't like cats, don't take your wife on one. I made that mistake a few years ago. I bareboat charter a lagoon 380 in the BVI. After that charter, the admiral said that was the most enjoyable and comfortable charter doesn’t want to go back to monohull chartering. How do you compare tacking up the drake channel in 15 knots with a stake on the grill and having dinner on the table? I have to admit I agreed with her it was also my coolest charter and I wasn’t a fan of cats going in. I think cats are much better when sailing with the family and friends because we are not on top of each other and have much more privacy than a mono.
If I have to keep my boat in the Caribbean or the tropical climates I will definitely choose a cat over a monohull. I don’t see a cat as a workable option here in the northeast where we spend most of the season on the hard with huge winter storage fees.