I've been sailing smaller boats for years. A 14' O'Day Javelin for 12 years and a Hunter 170 for the last 2 years. Last week, I bareboated a Beneteau 352 in the British Virgin Islands for a week with my wife and daughter. That 35-foot boat was easier to handle than my 170. We had plenty of wind in the BVI, too. My experience sailing smaller boats was the perfect preparation for sailing the bigger boat, I am pleased to say. Bigger boats are more forgiving than smaller boats. If you make a small mistake in a small boat, you swim. If you make a small mistake in a big boat, no one knows. The moral being, don't let anyone make you feel small because you sail a small boat. If you can sail the small boats well, the big ones are a cinch.
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Agreed - They teach Sailing Skills, or else <grin>
Had a Hobie 18. Lots easier to turtle it than the 340 <grin>. The smaller boats really teach sailing skills and one learns quickly or gets very wet. Besides, they really are a lot of fun.
Had a Hobie 18. Lots easier to turtle it than the 340 <grin>. The smaller boats really teach sailing skills and one learns quickly or gets very wet. Besides, they really are a lot of fun.
Here! Here!
I agree with you. I sailed a sunfish before moving to a Catalina 25 and now a Hunter L37. I did a lot of swimming with that sunfish. Bigger boats are more foregiving, but they are also a greater thrill for me.
I agree with you. I sailed a sunfish before moving to a Catalina 25 and now a Hunter L37. I did a lot of swimming with that sunfish. Bigger boats are more foregiving, but they are also a greater thrill for me.
1 difference....
The difficulty with larger boats tends to occur on the mooring side of the breakwater. Nudge the dock or another boat with a small boat and you get a thud. With a large boat something usually goes crunch. Thuds require rubbing compound while crunches require checks.
The difficulty with larger boats tends to occur on the mooring side of the breakwater. Nudge the dock or another boat with a small boat and you get a thud. With a large boat something usually goes crunch. Thuds require rubbing compound while crunches require checks.
You got my vote!
That is so true! I recently sailed a 40 ft keelboat in trade winds and deep blue water and the skills learned on smaller boats definitely paid off! It was great not having to hike out in the puffs!! Just stay away from the dock. Peter S/V Raven
That is so true! I recently sailed a 40 ft keelboat in trade winds and deep blue water and the skills learned on smaller boats definitely paid off! It was great not having to hike out in the puffs!! Just stay away from the dock. Peter S/V Raven
BVI
I would like to hear more about the BVI trip!! Like, who did you charter from?, what certification did you need?, how was the trip?, stops?, anchoring?, food?, cost?, worth another trip?, etc. I am interested for next February!
I would like to hear more about the BVI trip!! Like, who did you charter from?, what certification did you need?, how was the trip?, stops?, anchoring?, food?, cost?, worth another trip?, etc. I am interested for next February!
To Joe Baker...
...Check www.bviwelcome.com and click onto the TravelTalk link. There's always talk about trips, charters, companies, etc. You can even post a message if you don't get anything here. Good Luck.
...Check www.bviwelcome.com and click onto the TravelTalk link. There's always talk about trips, charters, companies, etc. You can even post a message if you don't get anything here. Good Luck.
Small relative to what?
I'd agree that "smaller boats are not small. On my favorite puddle, boats in the 23' - 24' range are average, so my h23 is a midsized boat for inland lake sailing. Certainly I'd hate to try trailering a 30' or larger boat anywhere. Not too long ago a post asked what was the all-time best Hunter design. Responses suggested boats in the mid-high 30' range were favored. That's great for saltwater or the great lakes. But what about the rest of us? I'm close enough to the coast that I could sail there, but I'd rather have a 30 minute drive than an hour and a quarter. Looking at addresses on postings, it seems a lot of us "smaller" boat owners don't even have the option of going to big water. I would agree with and extend Michael's thesis. "Smaller" boats take as much or more skill to sail, and what's important isn't the size of your boat, but whether its appropriate for where you are and what you're doing: hopefully having fun sailing instead of playing "keeping up with the Jones." Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
I'd agree that "smaller boats are not small. On my favorite puddle, boats in the 23' - 24' range are average, so my h23 is a midsized boat for inland lake sailing. Certainly I'd hate to try trailering a 30' or larger boat anywhere. Not too long ago a post asked what was the all-time best Hunter design. Responses suggested boats in the mid-high 30' range were favored. That's great for saltwater or the great lakes. But what about the rest of us? I'm close enough to the coast that I could sail there, but I'd rather have a 30 minute drive than an hour and a quarter. Looking at addresses on postings, it seems a lot of us "smaller" boat owners don't even have the option of going to big water. I would agree with and extend Michael's thesis. "Smaller" boats take as much or more skill to sail, and what's important isn't the size of your boat, but whether its appropriate for where you are and what you're doing: hopefully having fun sailing instead of playing "keeping up with the Jones." Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Bigger is Better ????????
As an owner (key word here, not a mortgagee) of a h23 I know my sailing skills have developed through the feel of the boat via the tiller and the seat of your pants (Fender board and all). Learning to sail in a small boat is one of the best ways to learn/improve skills. Racing on a small boat will really improve skills and increase the confidence level greatly. You learn to recognize the lifters and the headers quickly, and what to do with them. On a smaller boat sail trim adjustments respond faster and readjustments can be made without big losses in position. Most people sail in light air. We all appreciate a 2500 pound boat with 260 sq feet of sail on light air days. We just scoot around those 12,000 # boats that are trying to fly the 170 just to make it move. When skills are developed in the small boat, and the kids have graduated from U of Florida or Syracuse, or Harvard or where ever they went, then you can go to the 35-40 footer and go cruising in the Bahamas or down into the BVI on your own boat at your own pace. Something to think about. Hey, Peter in Orlando, hook up that h23 with wheels and come on down sometime. Also, there is a group up in Cherokee Lake Tennessee that is trying to put together a Hunter only regatta. 23-25 footers. Cherokee Lake Sailing Club would like to host. Dick Vance is registered on this site and it was through his post that I heard about it. Sounds like a great idea to me.
As an owner (key word here, not a mortgagee) of a h23 I know my sailing skills have developed through the feel of the boat via the tiller and the seat of your pants (Fender board and all). Learning to sail in a small boat is one of the best ways to learn/improve skills. Racing on a small boat will really improve skills and increase the confidence level greatly. You learn to recognize the lifters and the headers quickly, and what to do with them. On a smaller boat sail trim adjustments respond faster and readjustments can be made without big losses in position. Most people sail in light air. We all appreciate a 2500 pound boat with 260 sq feet of sail on light air days. We just scoot around those 12,000 # boats that are trying to fly the 170 just to make it move. When skills are developed in the small boat, and the kids have graduated from U of Florida or Syracuse, or Harvard or where ever they went, then you can go to the 35-40 footer and go cruising in the Bahamas or down into the BVI on your own boat at your own pace. Something to think about. Hey, Peter in Orlando, hook up that h23 with wheels and come on down sometime. Also, there is a group up in Cherokee Lake Tennessee that is trying to put together a Hunter only regatta. 23-25 footers. Cherokee Lake Sailing Club would like to host. Dick Vance is registered on this site and it was through his post that I heard about it. Sounds like a great idea to me.
formula
The amount of the invoice increases geometrically in relation to the length of the waterline.
The amount of the invoice increases geometrically in relation to the length of the waterline.
To Joe Baker: Chartering overseas
It has been my experience that the emphasis on certification is an American thing, probably because of legal and liability issues. When I chartered in Antigua, I found that they were much more concerned with hands-on skills than certifications. With an ASA Basic Keelboat cert. and a two-hour check ride with their skipper, I was cleared for a 40 foot boat. The charter base manager told me about one guy whose resume had nothing but Hobie cats. After the check ride they cleared him for a 50 ft Beneteau. I should also add that Antigua is trickier sailing than the BVI. Aas far as cost goes, if you can manage to stay out of the winter high season, prices comes down considerably. Usually they are closeto half the winter rates, and some places even throw in extra days for free. With satellite weather forecasting, chartering even during the hurricane season is not a major deal. As far as sailing, it's entirely up to you. Go where you want, how you want, when you want. About the only thing they discourage is night sailing and crossing open water without telling them first. Be frank and open and they will try to accomodate you as much as possible. Remember, this is there business. Peter S/V Raven
It has been my experience that the emphasis on certification is an American thing, probably because of legal and liability issues. When I chartered in Antigua, I found that they were much more concerned with hands-on skills than certifications. With an ASA Basic Keelboat cert. and a two-hour check ride with their skipper, I was cleared for a 40 foot boat. The charter base manager told me about one guy whose resume had nothing but Hobie cats. After the check ride they cleared him for a 50 ft Beneteau. I should also add that Antigua is trickier sailing than the BVI. Aas far as cost goes, if you can manage to stay out of the winter high season, prices comes down considerably. Usually they are closeto half the winter rates, and some places even throw in extra days for free. With satellite weather forecasting, chartering even during the hurricane season is not a major deal. As far as sailing, it's entirely up to you. Go where you want, how you want, when you want. About the only thing they discourage is night sailing and crossing open water without telling them first. Be frank and open and they will try to accomodate you as much as possible. Remember, this is there business. Peter S/V Raven
charter checkout
I have to say that a "ASA Basic Keelboat cert. and a two-hour check ride with their skipper" is, by far, the most careful checkout policy I have ever heard of at an overseas charter base. Some times I wonder if they really even read a resume...
I have to say that a "ASA Basic Keelboat cert. and a two-hour check ride with their skipper" is, by far, the most careful checkout policy I have ever heard of at an overseas charter base. Some times I wonder if they really even read a resume...
To Joe Baker, and anyone else
I chartered in the BVI with the Moorings. A bit more expensive than some, but well worth it for a first chartering. Everything worked, the briefing on boat operation and the cruising area was great. I had taken a 3 day bareboat cruising course and passed the bareboat cruising, basic cruising and keelboat tests from USSailing. I don't think it was necessary. I will charter again next march, and from The Moorings. Write to me at michael@cplplaw.com for further questions.
I chartered in the BVI with the Moorings. A bit more expensive than some, but well worth it for a first chartering. Everything worked, the briefing on boat operation and the cruising area was great. I had taken a 3 day bareboat cruising course and passed the bareboat cruising, basic cruising and keelboat tests from USSailing. I don't think it was necessary. I will charter again next march, and from The Moorings. Write to me at michael@cplplaw.com for further questions.
No two hour check out
When I first chartered with the Moorings in the BVIs in the early 1990s, I had owned and sailed Catalina 25 for 5 years, owned Hunter 30 for about a year: I had no other credentials or certification. Boat was turned over to me without concern on their part. Since then I have chartered 5 more times with them without any additional requests on their part. Think they can make some appraisel by what you ask during the boat briefing. Things that are of interest to them: how many on the boat are capable of skippering the boat. If only one, what happens when he/she is disabled?
When I first chartered with the Moorings in the BVIs in the early 1990s, I had owned and sailed Catalina 25 for 5 years, owned Hunter 30 for about a year: I had no other credentials or certification. Boat was turned over to me without concern on their part. Since then I have chartered 5 more times with them without any additional requests on their part. Think they can make some appraisel by what you ask during the boat briefing. Things that are of interest to them: how many on the boat are capable of skippering the boat. If only one, what happens when he/she is disabled?
Not Just Sailing Skills
As far as charter checkouts are concerned, I am always amazed the checkout does not include testing basic navigation abilities. We often sail in the Florida keys, where sandbars, reefs and wrecks pose quite a threat to the saftey of both boat and boaters. Prior to purchasing our 460 I chartered from a couple of agencies, both of whom checked my resume and sailing abilities, but neither of which verified that I knew how to read a basic chart! George Lamb Blacksheep
As far as charter checkouts are concerned, I am always amazed the checkout does not include testing basic navigation abilities. We often sail in the Florida keys, where sandbars, reefs and wrecks pose quite a threat to the saftey of both boat and boaters. Prior to purchasing our 460 I chartered from a couple of agencies, both of whom checked my resume and sailing abilities, but neither of which verified that I knew how to read a basic chart! George Lamb Blacksheep
I hate to admit this
I had always dreamed of learning to sail and chartering in the BVI. In '91, I talked Bly into taking a series of basic sailing classes with me, got into a timeshare on an Islander 32, read stacks of books on basic sailing and nav, practiced anchoring, docking, etc. like a madman, then booked my Moorings 38 with less (way less) than one year's experience. I took a few liberties with my sailing resume and nodded knowingly, in the right places, during the checkout, and nobody batted an eye. We did OK. Well, mostly. We used the lunch hook (a little Bruce) the first night... and dragged a #50 CQR to shore as a stern tie (duh!). And we tried to "adjust" the bimini with disasterous consequences, but otherwise, we didn't crash any docks or harm the boat in any way. Actually, it was a heck of a lot easier than sailing in Puget Sound!
I had always dreamed of learning to sail and chartering in the BVI. In '91, I talked Bly into taking a series of basic sailing classes with me, got into a timeshare on an Islander 32, read stacks of books on basic sailing and nav, practiced anchoring, docking, etc. like a madman, then booked my Moorings 38 with less (way less) than one year's experience. I took a few liberties with my sailing resume and nodded knowingly, in the right places, during the checkout, and nobody batted an eye. We did OK. Well, mostly. We used the lunch hook (a little Bruce) the first night... and dragged a #50 CQR to shore as a stern tie (duh!). And we tried to "adjust" the bimini with disasterous consequences, but otherwise, we didn't crash any docks or harm the boat in any way. Actually, it was a heck of a lot easier than sailing in Puget Sound!
On my last charter...
...with TMM in the BVI they gave a very thorough chart briefing. They also did a thorough boat checkout and then a checkout sail (1 hour) on the Beneteau 38 that we had. They also made me take it out and in to the dock during this time. Another time (with another company) all they did was a chart briefing and sent us off on an older Moorings 51. The boat was a disaster, but we weren't. Now I've chartered with the Moorings 3 times before on larger and smaller boats and they were never that thorough on checking qualifications. I didn't have any problems with taking the checkout sail with TMM, but having to sit thru a chart briefing for the 5th time was kind of boring. Especially when you're in a hurry to get to the Willie T.
...with TMM in the BVI they gave a very thorough chart briefing. They also did a thorough boat checkout and then a checkout sail (1 hour) on the Beneteau 38 that we had. They also made me take it out and in to the dock during this time. Another time (with another company) all they did was a chart briefing and sent us off on an older Moorings 51. The boat was a disaster, but we weren't. Now I've chartered with the Moorings 3 times before on larger and smaller boats and they were never that thorough on checking qualifications. I didn't have any problems with taking the checkout sail with TMM, but having to sit thru a chart briefing for the 5th time was kind of boring. Especially when you're in a hurry to get to the Willie T.
My own bonehead move
I found out after two frustrating hours of checking circuit breakers, fuses and wiring that the electric windlass on a Beneteau won't work unless the engine is running. I was trying to sail away from the anchorage like I often do in my "small" boat. Duhhhh!! During the check ride, I pointed out to the skipper that the transmission shift lever on the dinghy outboard was missing, so we had to go back. I lost about half a day waiting for a new motor. Otherwise, the charter company was great. It was also kind of cool to use a chart created by Don Street. I will definitely be going back to Antigua, because they will let you go to Guadeloupe, St. Marten, St. Kitts, Nevis, Barbuda, Redonda, etc. etc. I like to get off the beaten track and all of these places are less than six hours sailing away. Peter S/V Raven
I found out after two frustrating hours of checking circuit breakers, fuses and wiring that the electric windlass on a Beneteau won't work unless the engine is running. I was trying to sail away from the anchorage like I often do in my "small" boat. Duhhhh!! During the check ride, I pointed out to the skipper that the transmission shift lever on the dinghy outboard was missing, so we had to go back. I lost about half a day waiting for a new motor. Otherwise, the charter company was great. It was also kind of cool to use a chart created by Don Street. I will definitely be going back to Antigua, because they will let you go to Guadeloupe, St. Marten, St. Kitts, Nevis, Barbuda, Redonda, etc. etc. I like to get off the beaten track and all of these places are less than six hours sailing away. Peter S/V Raven
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