I was just wondering if my 1978 25 would sink if given the chance as I can't find any built in flotation aside from the (I assume) foam core cabin roof which I really don't think would hold her at the surface. It seens that the flotation would be required of the manufacturer. Otherwise I'm thinking about adding some flotation.
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David Foster
Cabin is Flotation
What is the contingency that makes you worry about the hull sinking? If you are on the boat, you can easily address any flooding event long before the hull loses its bouyancy. Boats like the h25 have survived the most extreme conditions, protecting the crew in the cabin, even through a 360 degree roll. (Since the capsize sceen of the h27 is less than 2, you can expect her to recover if inverted.) Getting pooped by a following sea if the hatch boards are not in place would dump some water over the bridge deck into the cabin, but the amount of water would not endanger the boat. Of course, you should have the hatch boards in place if conditions degrade. A more likely flooding scenario is the failure of a thru-hull fitting, or the hose attached to it. The typical h25 has 3 or 4 through hulls: 1. Speedo. 2. Depth transducer. 3. Sink drain. 4. Engine cooling intake. (If you have an inboard.) You can get a set of conical plugs at a marine store. Tie one of the right size to each through hull fitting - ready to knock into place if the fitting fails. Carry another set in a convenient location in the main cabin. Carry an extra pump and buckets to assist your bilge pump if flooding does occur. By the way, the thick, solid fiberglass (7/8ths of an inch on the bottom of our h27 hull), and solid grid at the bottom of your hull make it as close to indestructible as possible. We now know that boats designed in the 70's were seriously overbuilt considering the strength of the materials used. Modern cruising sailboat hulls are much lighter, and still have an excellent safety record. The real danger of you boat sinking is at the dock or mooring while you are away. Shutting off the through hull valves when you leave the boat, and having a good electric bilge pump (with shore power backup if available) are the reasonable precautions here. These strategies let most of us sleep easy at night. In many disasters where the crew does abandon the boat, the hull is later found floating, or washed up on shore. If you still want the assurance of positive flotation, then you should consider enclosing space, rather than foam. My calculations are that you would need around 70 cubic feet of enclosed air to float 4,400 pounds. That would take most of the storage and dead space in the hull, but I suppose it could be done. Before you set out on that course, though, I strongly recommend you learn how the strategies described above keep our boats afloat in all kinds of conditions. David Lady Lillie
What is the contingency that makes you worry about the hull sinking? If you are on the boat, you can easily address any flooding event long before the hull loses its bouyancy. Boats like the h25 have survived the most extreme conditions, protecting the crew in the cabin, even through a 360 degree roll. (Since the capsize sceen of the h27 is less than 2, you can expect her to recover if inverted.) Getting pooped by a following sea if the hatch boards are not in place would dump some water over the bridge deck into the cabin, but the amount of water would not endanger the boat. Of course, you should have the hatch boards in place if conditions degrade. A more likely flooding scenario is the failure of a thru-hull fitting, or the hose attached to it. The typical h25 has 3 or 4 through hulls: 1. Speedo. 2. Depth transducer. 3. Sink drain. 4. Engine cooling intake. (If you have an inboard.) You can get a set of conical plugs at a marine store. Tie one of the right size to each through hull fitting - ready to knock into place if the fitting fails. Carry another set in a convenient location in the main cabin. Carry an extra pump and buckets to assist your bilge pump if flooding does occur. By the way, the thick, solid fiberglass (7/8ths of an inch on the bottom of our h27 hull), and solid grid at the bottom of your hull make it as close to indestructible as possible. We now know that boats designed in the 70's were seriously overbuilt considering the strength of the materials used. Modern cruising sailboat hulls are much lighter, and still have an excellent safety record. The real danger of you boat sinking is at the dock or mooring while you are away. Shutting off the through hull valves when you leave the boat, and having a good electric bilge pump (with shore power backup if available) are the reasonable precautions here. These strategies let most of us sleep easy at night. In many disasters where the crew does abandon the boat, the hull is later found floating, or washed up on shore. If you still want the assurance of positive flotation, then you should consider enclosing space, rather than foam. My calculations are that you would need around 70 cubic feet of enclosed air to float 4,400 pounds. That would take most of the storage and dead space in the hull, but I suppose it could be done. Before you set out on that course, though, I strongly recommend you learn how the strategies described above keep our boats afloat in all kinds of conditions. David Lady Lillie
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Stu Sauer
Other precautions required
My first boat was a '78 hunter 25 and it was a wonderful boat to learn to sail. Although it was a shoal draft and was kind of tender, we survived a near knock down with sails in the water during a Cheapeake line squall. Now, if that or most coastal cruising boats were to roll, there is typically nothing to keep the hatch boards from falling out and the sail and lazerette hatches closed or watertight. On my 28.5, although we cary wood plugs for the thru hulls and have latches on the sail locker and lazerette hatches, I'd expect she'd take on a lot of water if she ever rolled. Still, it's a good idea to have the wood plugs, hatch latches as well as electric and manual bilge pumps aboard because they will reduce the likelyhood of swamping the boat.
My first boat was a '78 hunter 25 and it was a wonderful boat to learn to sail. Although it was a shoal draft and was kind of tender, we survived a near knock down with sails in the water during a Cheapeake line squall. Now, if that or most coastal cruising boats were to roll, there is typically nothing to keep the hatch boards from falling out and the sail and lazerette hatches closed or watertight. On my 28.5, although we cary wood plugs for the thru hulls and have latches on the sail locker and lazerette hatches, I'd expect she'd take on a lot of water if she ever rolled. Still, it's a good idea to have the wood plugs, hatch latches as well as electric and manual bilge pumps aboard because they will reduce the likelyhood of swamping the boat.
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David Foster
Closing the hatch
Closing the hatch will hold the hatch boards in, especially if the latch if closed. Stu, did you ship any water into the cabin on your near knock-down? Preparation for blue water cruising of any cruising sailboat will include a mechanism to hold down the hatch boards in that can be activated from inside the cabin. Running a shock cord from a ring on the bulkhead above the steps to an eye on the top hatchboard is an example. But rolling an h25 would require getting hit broadside by a _breaking_ wave of 9 feet or over. Because of the time and fetch it takes to build up waves of this size, a coastal cruiser will have plenty of time to make it to a safe port after the gale force winds start up. Water-tight sealing of the lazarette and hatches is another blue water preparation. But it is my understanding that boats without such sealing have survived a rollover without shipping enough water to endanger bouyancy. So we do not have blue water rigging on our h27, which is never more than 5 hours from a safe harbor on Lake Erie. On the other hand, we know a number of friends who have been knocked down by wind bursts from a fast moving storm front. I have to confess that our cabin is not well secured enough to take a knock-down without spewing cargo all over the cabin! David Lady Lillie
Closing the hatch will hold the hatch boards in, especially if the latch if closed. Stu, did you ship any water into the cabin on your near knock-down? Preparation for blue water cruising of any cruising sailboat will include a mechanism to hold down the hatch boards in that can be activated from inside the cabin. Running a shock cord from a ring on the bulkhead above the steps to an eye on the top hatchboard is an example. But rolling an h25 would require getting hit broadside by a _breaking_ wave of 9 feet or over. Because of the time and fetch it takes to build up waves of this size, a coastal cruiser will have plenty of time to make it to a safe port after the gale force winds start up. Water-tight sealing of the lazarette and hatches is another blue water preparation. But it is my understanding that boats without such sealing have survived a rollover without shipping enough water to endanger bouyancy. So we do not have blue water rigging on our h27, which is never more than 5 hours from a safe harbor on Lake Erie. On the other hand, we know a number of friends who have been knocked down by wind bursts from a fast moving storm front. I have to confess that our cabin is not well secured enough to take a knock-down without spewing cargo all over the cabin! David Lady Lillie
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Stu Sauer
Knockdown
David, As I remember, my sails were down and tied with schock cord when the initial gust hit and broke the shock cords holding the hanked on 150 Genoa to the port rail. The gust 'hoisted' the 150, creating the knockdown. I scrambled over the starboard side coach roof, pulled down the genoa and re-tied it to the life lines with a dock line. I deployed the anchor and 150' of rhode and by the time I was back in the cockpit she was upright. I don't believe there was any water below but I had had the hatch closed with the hatch boards inplace. I assume there was enough hull bouyancy that the bridge deck and companway remained above water even with the portside rail and portlights in the water. I don't know if she had broached on her starboard beam if the sail locker would have been a problem.
David, As I remember, my sails were down and tied with schock cord when the initial gust hit and broke the shock cords holding the hanked on 150 Genoa to the port rail. The gust 'hoisted' the 150, creating the knockdown. I scrambled over the starboard side coach roof, pulled down the genoa and re-tied it to the life lines with a dock line. I deployed the anchor and 150' of rhode and by the time I was back in the cockpit she was upright. I don't believe there was any water below but I had had the hatch closed with the hatch boards inplace. I assume there was enough hull bouyancy that the bridge deck and companway remained above water even with the portside rail and portlights in the water. I don't know if she had broached on her starboard beam if the sail locker would have been a problem.
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David Foster
Not worth worrying about.
The '70s H25 was designed as a real 'yacht' and NOT as a trailerable daysailer such as the MacGregor. Though somewhat tender on a stiff breeze, the H25 is is an inherently safe little boat, of which most owners say can be taken to hell and back. One should be more cautious about comparing the H25 to boats such as the MacGregor than about fretting over things too unlikely to lose sleep over. Think of it this way-- MacGregors have positive foam floatation because they HAVE to [wink]. Get a water-ballasted M26 into the wrong situation and you are getting your head wet. These boats even have a 'lock-down pin' to keep the swing keel extended in sheepish acknowledgement that the boat could roll far enough to let the keel come slamming back DOWN into the trunk-- and thus guaranteeing a complete capsize. In spite of MacGregor's claims that his boats benefit from NOT having 'all that weight' (read his literature), the designed-in stability of a fixed keel is your BEST assurance against sustaining major knockdowns from which the boat cannot recover. I am a big fan of the old '70s Ventures, but as others in these boards will tell you, there are two very different techniques to safely sailing an ultra-light dinghy with a 700-lb swing keel and sailing a stable little yacht with 40% of the displacement in a fixed lead keel. It's like comparing go-carts to Ferraris. JC 2
The '70s H25 was designed as a real 'yacht' and NOT as a trailerable daysailer such as the MacGregor. Though somewhat tender on a stiff breeze, the H25 is is an inherently safe little boat, of which most owners say can be taken to hell and back. One should be more cautious about comparing the H25 to boats such as the MacGregor than about fretting over things too unlikely to lose sleep over. Think of it this way-- MacGregors have positive foam floatation because they HAVE to [wink]. Get a water-ballasted M26 into the wrong situation and you are getting your head wet. These boats even have a 'lock-down pin' to keep the swing keel extended in sheepish acknowledgement that the boat could roll far enough to let the keel come slamming back DOWN into the trunk-- and thus guaranteeing a complete capsize. In spite of MacGregor's claims that his boats benefit from NOT having 'all that weight' (read his literature), the designed-in stability of a fixed keel is your BEST assurance against sustaining major knockdowns from which the boat cannot recover. I am a big fan of the old '70s Ventures, but as others in these boards will tell you, there are two very different techniques to safely sailing an ultra-light dinghy with a 700-lb swing keel and sailing a stable little yacht with 40% of the displacement in a fixed lead keel. It's like comparing go-carts to Ferraris. JC 2
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Crazy Dave Condon
listen to jc as he is the expert.
the 25 is a Cherubini design. I think enough said and JC is the expert here.
the 25 is a Cherubini design. I think enough said and JC is the expert here.
Testament to stability of fixed-keel boats
I personally know of an H25 and an H23 that were sailed short-handed from Key West to the Dry Tortugas and back without incident. That's about 70 miles of open ocean each way. Claibourne Young's "Cruising Guide to the Florida Keys" (written primarily for people cruising on large motorboats) cautions that this trip is not to be taken lightly. I did the trip aboard a 46 ft Irwin and it was no cakewalk. If you can live with a fixed keel it's definitely the way to go IMHO. Peter H23 "Raven"
I personally know of an H25 and an H23 that were sailed short-handed from Key West to the Dry Tortugas and back without incident. That's about 70 miles of open ocean each way. Claibourne Young's "Cruising Guide to the Florida Keys" (written primarily for people cruising on large motorboats) cautions that this trip is not to be taken lightly. I did the trip aboard a 46 ft Irwin and it was no cakewalk. If you can live with a fixed keel it's definitely the way to go IMHO. Peter H23 "Raven"
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