Should I change the Holding tank?

Stu Jackson · Feb 18, 2009

Buy Peggie's book!

Short answer, the tanks usually don't permeate.

Stu Jackson · Feb 18, 2009

Hal B said:
Looks like it might be a pain to get it out and a new one in.

Good book, just wish it had a some diagrams in it to help me with some questions.

Yes, it would be, they almost always are. That's why we should be grateful they don't permeate.

What kind of diagrams do you need? West Marine's Advisors, in their catalogs and online have diagrams of systems. They lack what I think is the best one: head out to Y valve: overboard or to tank (OR head out to seacock continuing to valve to tank - same concept, but requires more thought to assure both valves are in the right position); macerator overboard or pump out. Everything they show has to go through the tank which I feel is nonsense.

Dave Groshong · Feb 18, 2009

We offer both the Trident 101 and OdorSafe hose here in the Chandlery:

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/category.htm?fno=400&cat=1014

We also offer the premium 3/8 inch wall thickness Ronco tanks, give me a call for a great discounted price on these tanks. Toll Free 206-932-7245 ext. 116, Mon-Fri, 9-5 Pacific.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 18, 2009

No need to replace the tank unless it's leaking

Although you might want to consider relocating some of the fittings on it, which--thanks to a li'l doodad called the UniSeal http://www.aussieglobe.com/uniseal1.htm (read ALL the pages to see how it works and how little it costs)--isn't nearly as hard to do as it used to be.

And if Catalina terminated your tank vent line in a rail stanchion, you definitely want to move it to a new vent thru-hull.

Trident 101/102 isn't available in 3/4"...so for tank vent line and head intake use Shields or Trident #148.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 18, 2009

You don't need a second vent...there's no good way to run it from your tank location that will allow it to do any good. As for the new vent thru-hull...increase the length to no more than 5' to a location right below the toe rail and put a clam shell cover on it to keep water out.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 19, 2009

Re your vent line...I forgot to add

Increase the diameter to 1", which will require a new fitting in the tank. The new thru-hull will have to be just a plain bulkhead thru-hull, 'cuz "vent" thru-hulls are only availalble in 5/8".

And to clarify my advice to increase the length of the vent line... That's to decrease the degree of vertical rise. It may still be more than 45 degrees, but will be a lot flatter than it is now. It still needs to be straight, no sags, bends or arches.

Stu Jackson · Feb 21, 2009

Hal, they make them in white, soft plastic

too, rather than the shiny metal.

Ron20324 · Feb 21, 2009

Hal, I don't see why you are going to the king-size vent line, which it seems you are doing just to be able to use brand-? hose. There are other hoses in the size you need, though I don't see you mention the present vent size other than "3/4, I think". Looking in the catalogs, I see almost all tank vents as 5/8, one 3/4. I see one-inch as overkill and a major highway for bugs and such.

Stu Jackson · Feb 21, 2009

Non-screened vent hose

Ron, the ONLY place the bugs can go is into the holding tank! Big deal.

The real issue is that the Queen says large vent lines WORK where the 5/8 do NOT. She's done her homework, and knows. She wrote "The Book."

Just because that's all they manufacture doesn't mean it's right...

Hal, either try the thru hull on deck with a soft plastic clam shell over it, or use the thru hull on the side and forget the clam shell at first and see if you ever sail with the rail at that position underwater. I know, easy for me to say, but if you do some on the water research, consider that you may be able to move the thru hull fore or aft a little bit, like a foot or two, you may be very surprised at how the waves on the side of your boat act and locate themselves, and maybe not so much could get in. If the thru hull for the vent is aft of your widest point amidships, it may not get that much.

Ron20324 · Feb 21, 2009

quote"Just because that's all they manufacture doesn't mean it's right..."quote

And just because Peggy says her input is such and such doesn't mean it's right or the only answer, either. There are a number of equipment manufacturers and boatbuilders who would vote, by virtue of using the size they do, that the smaller hose is sufficient. No disrepect to Peggy or her book, but just because someone publishes a book does not make them an expert- it only makes them an author. In these forums there are often dozens of opinions expressed by individuals who apparently consider themselves experts (and are quite knowlegeable in some field or other), but obvioulsy, by the contradicting opinions, there is more than one way to do any given task. Whomever posted the original question (on any subject) must sift through the many differing opinions that are offered and find what is best for themselves. Hal can do what works for him, but if I was looking at a big clamshell that somewhat disfigured my boat, i'd have to ponder the options- like going smaller.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Feb 21, 2009

Larger diameter vent line allows more air (oxygen) into the tank

And oxygen is the key to odor prevention. If you want to know more about that, search the archives...although it would prob'ly be a lot easer to read about it in my book.

So-called "vent" thru-hulls--and the standard holding tank vent--are all 5/8" because that was set as the adequate size for water and fuel tanks long before waste holding tanks were needed. As far as the industry was (is?) concerned, a tank is a tank...no thought was ever given to the idea that water and fuel don't need to be managed, but waste does...so 5/8" was also adopted as the standard size for waste tanks. Boat builders were happy with that because it meant they could use the same vent thru-hull for all tanks, which saves 'em money.

Yes, Ron...bugs CAN get into an open tank vent thru-hull...but thru-hulls that have screens or just slits become clogged with dust, pollen and waste spills a lot more often than they do by bugs...which is why--like every other system on a boat--tank vents require constant maintenance.

And btw Ron...I'm not just a boat owner who woke up one day and decided to write a book. I did so after spending more than 20 years as marine professional specializing exclusively in marine sanitation and odor elimination and prevention....and as a consultant to boat builders, state agencies and dealers. Whether you choose to follow my recommendations or not is up to you...it is, after all, YOUR boat, not mine.

Hal, you're welcome to send me photos...send me a PM and I'll give you my email address. However, your concern about the clamshell cosmetics only illutrate how todays boat owners are far more concerned about cosmetics than about safety or function...and unfortunately boat builders are catering to it. Seacocks aren't decor items, so builders now hide 'em in locations that make it so impractical as to be impossible to keep 'em closed except when in use. Owners can't install a vented loop because it would be exposed in the head and vented loops are ugly...and you don't want to install a clamshell because it doesn't match your hull's cosmetics. but if you fill it up with sea waterand it sinks, it won't matter whether everything matched the decor or not.

Stu Jackson · Feb 21, 2009

Two rudes in one day!

Ron20324 said:
No disrespect to Peggy or her book, but just because someone publishes a book does not make them an expert- it only makes them an author.

Ron, regardless of your opening, that's pretty gosh darned rude!

Yup, there are people who fit your description, but she's NOT one of them. There is NO ONE in the entire boating industry who has performed the research and provided such a comprehensive volume as Peggie has on this, or, indeed, on many other subjects. You'll note that there's been years of neglect on this very subject that is one of the very first issues any significant other or skipper has with boat odors.

One other slightly important thing: For FREE she's been dispensing advice, many times repeating the basics over and over again for folks who could just do some of their own homework and research, without any complaints (I complain more about than she does, like never), and is always cheerful and helpful. She does this, of course, to promote her book, but unlike some other "authors" on other forums I've seen, she doesn't do the promotion first and the sometimes meager-answer-then-go-buy-my-book-thing second. In fact, she rarely mentions it. Yeah, so she's got a signature. That's what it's there for.

She's been one of two or three Guest Experts on this forum for years. Some of the earlier ones, like a refrigeration company, dropped out, even though they're a much larger (i.e., read more than one person) outfit who could most likely more afford the time to build their businesses by helping all of us out.

More importantly, her analysis and conclusions have been proven right, time and again, because they are based on REAL science. Anerobic, aerobic, makes my head spin, but she expalins it so I can understand it.

Ya wanna have a go at anchors? I'll discuss it til the cows come home, and can show you 18 different books with 25 different conclusions. Same with boat electrical systems, although, as you may know, I do have my "preferred system" and many reasons for recommending it. I haven't written my book yet...

You also wrote: "There are a number of equipment manufacturers and boatbuilders who would vote, by virtue of using the size they do, that the smaller hose is sufficient."

If that's anywhere near the case, then how come so many, many, many OEM boat vent systems simply do NOT work? For instance, our boat and many of it's kind in smaller and larger sizes, have pretty straight vent lines within the 5 foot rule. But they end in stanchions with even smaller openings and all are 5/8 inch. A majority of owners of C30s to C36s and even C42s still complain. And the other boat brands, too. Sufficient? I think not.

Smaller is NOT better for tank vents. Period.

While a retraction would be in order, your attitude leaves me only hoping...

sailingdog · Feb 22, 2009

Ron—

Before you go saying someone is just an author, you might really want to look and see what their background is. Peggie's basically considered the word on boat sanitation since she is probably the most knowledgeable person about the subject today. She has spent decades working in the field, both as the owner of a company specializing in sanitation and as a consultant to boat manufacturers and the industry in general. Implying that Peggie isn't an expert in her field is both stupid and rude IMHO. That would be like saying Brion Toss isn't an expert in the rigging field. Not only a retraction, but an apology is in order IMHO.

There are probably many reasons that boat manufacturers continue to use 5/8" hose, even though 1" hose would be far better... then again, there are probably reasons these same manufacturers use marine plywood backing plates instead of solid fiberglass, aluminum or stainless steel ones.

Cost is probably the major reason. They have to have the 5/8" fittings and hose in inventory for the fuel and water tanks. Carrying 1" fittings and hose would reduce their economies of scale in purchasing said fittings and hose by 33% or more, and increase their costs. That alone is reason enough that most boat manufacturers will use what they think is acceptable, rather than the proper equipment.

Also, many manufacturers route their vent hoses into stanchions. Can't route a 1" hose into a 1" stainless steel stanchion. So physical limitations on design are another reason to stick with 5/8" hose—which does fit into a 1" stanchion.

As Stu points out....just because a boat manufacturer does it that way, doesn't make it right and doesn't mean it'll work. A vent is required by law....so they install one. Does it work and help prevent the holding tank from smelling—no, usually not.

Ron20324 said:
quote"Just because that's all they manufacture doesn't mean it's right..."quote

And just because Peggy says her input is such and such doesn't mean it's right or the only answer, either. There are a number of equipment manufacturers and boatbuilders who would vote, by virtue of using the size they do, that the smaller hose is sufficient. No disrepect to Peggy or her book, but just because someone publishes a book does not make them an expert- it only makes them an author. In these forums there are often dozens of opinions expressed by individuals who apparently consider themselves experts (and are quite knowlegeable in some field or other), but obvioulsy, by the contradicting opinions, there is more than one way to do any given task. Whomever posted the original question (on any subject) must sift through the many differing opinions that are offered and find what is best for themselves. Hal can do what works for him, but if I was looking at a big clamshell that somewhat disfigured my boat, i'd have to ponder the options- like going smaller.

jackhartjr · Feb 22, 2009

Ron...Ron...Ron...You really need to purchase Peggie's book...then you will understand.
She is THE expert on this subject!
And you will just have to take the beatings and floggings you will get after questioning her expertise...not from Peggie...but for us that know!
Seriously, you should purchase the book. Mine stays in the easy to reach part of the library.
Jack

Should I change the Holding tank?

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