I have a Seaward 17 with a winged shoal keel. It's about 6 ft long, 18 in wide, and 5 in thick. 450 lbs. So it's a bit chunky to say the least. Problem is I can't get the boat to sail on a close haul to save myself. I read one article that claimed the best you can do with this boat is 60 degrees. What am I doing wrong?
Shoal keel
- Thread starter Dhamil6490
- Start date
Is this your boat
Do you have a traveler? Are you experiencing weather helm or do you just luff when you try to point? From this picture it sort of looks like the rudder is not biting very deep in the water. Do you notice a difference in pointing ability if you shift to the back of the cockpit?
Do you have a traveler? Are you experiencing weather helm or do you just luff when you try to point? From this picture it sort of looks like the rudder is not biting very deep in the water. Do you notice a difference in pointing ability if you shift to the back of the cockpit?
This article here says she needs to be a little "bow down" for optimal performance but the author seems well pleased with her performance.
standingatthehelm.blogspot.com
SeaWard Fox 17
SeaWard Fox 17 “ARROGANCE”, a 1990 Seaward Fox 17, by Starboard Yachts Company, is a beautiful sea worthy pocket cruiser that I feel was e...
standingatthehelm.blogspot.com
I've seen this article before. I sat my 200 lb grandson on the top of the cabin ahead of the mast. Didn't help much. Thanks for your suggestion.This article here says she needs to be a little "bow down" for optimal performance but the author seems well pleased with her performance.
SeaWard Fox 17
SeaWard Fox 17 “ARROGANCE”, a 1990 Seaward Fox 17, by Starboard Yachts Company, is a beautiful sea worthy pocket cruiser that I feel was e...
Yes, this looks like my boat. Yes I have a traveller, and yes she luffs when trying to point, then stalls and heads downwind. The rudder extends about 30" into the water . For what it's worth, this boom looks like it's shorter than mine.
It sounds like you cannot get the boat to point to windward, which is a bit different than your course made good to windward. The short keel will certainly affect your ability to make progress to windward but not as much your ability to point. What condition are your sails? Blown out, or baggy, sails can be a huge factor in ability to point close hauled. You will never compete with a deep draft boat upwind but there are things you can do to help with sail trim. I would also expect windward performance to be quickly affected when the wind picks up because of the combination of wide beam and shoal draft. Reef early, keep the boat flat.
@DArcy mentioned the possibility of a blown out sail. That is why I asked if you have weather helm.
When I first got my H26 I was very dissatisfied with how much weather helm I would get and I found I had to start reefing at about 10 mph of wind. Second season I got a new main sail. Whooo hooo! A lot more fun. I also rigged a way to pull my boom to mid ship (I don't have a traveler) and things got even better. Third season I got a new genoa... even more fun.
I believe DArcy is also correct about keeping the boat flat. Do you find it harder to point in a stiff breeze or is it always harder? If it is mostly a stiff breeze situation, you might find a lot of improvement with a new sail.
How tight is our out-haul?
Now thinking about the Jib. Where do your jib blocks attach? Are they near the toe rail or are they inboard a bit? If the jib sheet blocks are at the toe rail, then finding a way to bring your jib sheets inboard will help your upwind significantly.
When I first got my H26 I was very dissatisfied with how much weather helm I would get and I found I had to start reefing at about 10 mph of wind. Second season I got a new main sail. Whooo hooo! A lot more fun. I also rigged a way to pull my boom to mid ship (I don't have a traveler) and things got even better. Third season I got a new genoa... even more fun.
I believe DArcy is also correct about keeping the boat flat. Do you find it harder to point in a stiff breeze or is it always harder? If it is mostly a stiff breeze situation, you might find a lot of improvement with a new sail.
How tight is our out-haul?
Now thinking about the Jib. Where do your jib blocks attach? Are they near the toe rail or are they inboard a bit? If the jib sheet blocks are at the toe rail, then finding a way to bring your jib sheets inboard will help your upwind significantly.
Given size and dimensions of the boat 50° may be as best as you can do close hauled.
Old sails, both the main and jib will be difficult to trim and will cause the boat to heel more and slide sideways, but give the illusion of pointing high on the wind.
Where is the jib fairlead? Can it be adjusted. If the lead is too far forward the top of the sail will spill wind and you'll lose pointing ability. The curve of the jib leach should match the curve of the mainsail leach. The telltale on the jib should be streaming aft with the inside telltale kicking up occasionally. There should be 2 sets of telltales on each side of the jib about a ¼ of the way back from the luff. When properly trimmed going up wind, the upper and lower set should be even. If the jib leads are wrong, one set will look trimmed and the other not trimmed.
Get the mainsail flat with the boom on the center line. A combination of halyard tension and outhaul tension can flatten the sail give better windward performance. An old sail that is stretched out, will not flatten and will adversely affect your pointing.
How is the mast tuned? In correct rig tension can adversely affect pointing ability and the ability to properly trim the mainsail.
Most boats sail better flat with little heel, perhaps 10-15° at most.
Is there any current in the waters you sail? One of my most frustrating days sailing was sailing in a foul current. Normally, there isn't much current on Lake Ontario, this day there was. I couldn't point worth crap and when I eventually reached the buoy I was sailing towards I realized why, there was a 1.5 to 2 knot current working against. The downwind sail back home was quick fast.
Next time you are out sailing, set up the boat and trim the sails as you would normally. Then try adjusting or changing one thing at a time. If you change too many things at once, you'll never figure out what does what.
Good Luck.
Old sails, both the main and jib will be difficult to trim and will cause the boat to heel more and slide sideways, but give the illusion of pointing high on the wind.
Where is the jib fairlead? Can it be adjusted. If the lead is too far forward the top of the sail will spill wind and you'll lose pointing ability. The curve of the jib leach should match the curve of the mainsail leach. The telltale on the jib should be streaming aft with the inside telltale kicking up occasionally. There should be 2 sets of telltales on each side of the jib about a ¼ of the way back from the luff. When properly trimmed going up wind, the upper and lower set should be even. If the jib leads are wrong, one set will look trimmed and the other not trimmed.
Get the mainsail flat with the boom on the center line. A combination of halyard tension and outhaul tension can flatten the sail give better windward performance. An old sail that is stretched out, will not flatten and will adversely affect your pointing.
How is the mast tuned? In correct rig tension can adversely affect pointing ability and the ability to properly trim the mainsail.
Most boats sail better flat with little heel, perhaps 10-15° at most.
Is there any current in the waters you sail? One of my most frustrating days sailing was sailing in a foul current. Normally, there isn't much current on Lake Ontario, this day there was. I couldn't point worth crap and when I eventually reached the buoy I was sailing towards I realized why, there was a 1.5 to 2 knot current working against. The downwind sail back home was quick fast.
Next time you are out sailing, set up the boat and trim the sails as you would normally. Then try adjusting or changing one thing at a time. If you change too many things at once, you'll never figure out what does what.
Good Luck.
One other quick thought. Over trimming the sails, especially in light air will reduce your pointing ability. The sails look full, but they are stalled.
Trim the sails fat and gradually come up on the wind. As the boat accelerates the apparent wind will move forward and your pointing ability will increase.
Trim the sails fat and gradually come up on the wind. As the boat accelerates the apparent wind will move forward and your pointing ability will increase.
My sails are in good shape. The boat was not used for 3 years by the previous owner, but the main was stored in its bag in a garage. The Genoa was used once and stored similarly. No rodent damage. Last season winds were mild, 5-7 knots. Maybe there just wasn't enough wind to make speed.
Sails that are blown out can look perfectly fine, however, the cloth stretches and causes the sail to be fuller than it was designed to be. New sailcloth is very stiff and noisy. If your sail is soft or when luffing it is relatively quiet, the sail is approaching or past its end of life. A new sail when being hoisted in a breeze can be deafening!
It is very difficult to point in 5-7 knots of breeze. The boat just can't get moving fast enough to generate enough apparent wind to get the keel and rudder to generate much lift. A boat like yours will probably sail best in about 10-12 knots.
Not wanting to issue a "discouraging word" here, but also the OP needs to have both sails inspected by a reputable loft for shape. It is not unheard of for a new boat to be delivered with poorly cut sails... or at least not really optimized as they should have been.
(Also, beware of sailmakers or dockside commentators that try to fob off this viewpoint with the observation that proper sails are just for picky "racers".)
Well designed sails should be the 'norm' for any boat out sailing, especially when it's for fun.
(Also, beware of sailmakers or dockside commentators that try to fob off this viewpoint with the observation that proper sails are just for picky "racers".)
Well designed sails should be the 'norm' for any boat out sailing, especially when it's for fun.
Life is too short to sail slow boats or ugly ones.Not wanting to issue a "discouraging word" here, but also the OP needs to have both sails inspected by a reputable loft for shape. It is not unheard of for a new boat to be delivered with poorly cut sails... or at least not really optimized as they should have been.
(Also, beware of sailmakers or dockside commentators that try to fob off this viewpoint with the observation that proper sails are just for picky "racers".)
Well designed sails should be the 'norm' for any boat out sailing, especially when it's for fun.
The Genoa is noisy. I'll have to check the main this season. The jib blocks are a bit inboard and are on travelers. Forward in light air, aft in strong air. I think you're right about wind speed and pointing.
Jib blocks go aft when going to windward and forward off the wind. Block placement is less determined by wind speed than by point of sail.
For instance in a decent breeze you might place the blocks 12" aft of midpoint when going to weather and 10" in a lighter breeze while off the wind the blocks would be 12" forward of mid point regardless of wind speed. These numbers are of course made up for demonstration purposes.
The winged keel concept was inspired when the Australians kicked America's ass in the America Cup competition - the first to do so in the event's history thus far. So, manufactures started incorporating them into production boats with varying degrees of success. The thought was that the winged keel, in a shoal draft configuration, would give the boat lift - as much as you could expect in a shoal draft config. The Aussie's keel not only had wings on it, but it extended deep into the water, which is where you really get your lift. So, if you want to point high, get a boat with a deep fin keel. But, of course, that doesn't work for everyone. It doesn't work so well for people who launch and retrieve their boats off ramps using a trailer, or for folks who sail in skinny water and need a shallow draft, etc. So, this is stuff you probably already knew.
Different boat manufactures have built winged keels that are more efficient than others, but basically, you can only ask your wing to do so much and not expect anymore. Of course off the wind or down wind, they are a dream.
There are other things that improve windward performance. As mentioned, new sails helps a lot. The draft is where it is supposed to be. But the draft is adjustable with the halyard on a jib, or a halyard and cunningham on the main. The jib is more important initially. You can ease off on the jib halyard which brings the draft aft and flattens the leading edge so allow you to sail a bit higher into the wind. Of course if the wind is blowing like stink, then you need to do different things. And, if you are sailing along and the boat just doesn't seem to be moving very well, there is the old adage: When in doubt, let it out. Which means you probably have the halyards and sheets too tight and when you loosen things up, the boat will spurt forward with a smile. Of course the sheets on a jib/genoa must be sheeted to the fairlead/block on the deck at a specific point so that when you gradually point the boat into the wind, the entire luff of the sail breaks at the same time (the leading edge of the sail). If it breaks up high first then your lead is too far aft and if it breaks on the bottom half first, the lead is too far forward. Find the right spot and the sail will luff consistently up the leading edge of the sail. But, nothing is totally never that easy. If the wind pipes up so you are starting to fight the tiller/helm, then you can bring the headsail lead aft a bit to spill wind off the top, lower the traveler car on the main (if you have one) to leeward and tighten up the backstay (if you have an adjuster).
The other thing racers do when it is blowing very hard - going to windward - is to pull in the jib sheet very tight and point the boat into the wind so that the inside tell tales are flying straight up and the outside telltales are flying straight back. This is called feathering, but most sailors out for a day sail don't want to expose themselves to such conditions and will usually head in by then.
So, if you aren't going to buy a boat with a fin keel, or a keel that drops or lowers to the point where you can get 4-5 feet of keel down below the boat then don't expect the wing to solve your problem - but it is better than a shoal draft without a wing. And, of course, new sails, trimmed properly will also help with windward performance as well as other points of sail. That's my 2-cents.
Different boat manufactures have built winged keels that are more efficient than others, but basically, you can only ask your wing to do so much and not expect anymore. Of course off the wind or down wind, they are a dream.
There are other things that improve windward performance. As mentioned, new sails helps a lot. The draft is where it is supposed to be. But the draft is adjustable with the halyard on a jib, or a halyard and cunningham on the main. The jib is more important initially. You can ease off on the jib halyard which brings the draft aft and flattens the leading edge so allow you to sail a bit higher into the wind. Of course if the wind is blowing like stink, then you need to do different things. And, if you are sailing along and the boat just doesn't seem to be moving very well, there is the old adage: When in doubt, let it out. Which means you probably have the halyards and sheets too tight and when you loosen things up, the boat will spurt forward with a smile. Of course the sheets on a jib/genoa must be sheeted to the fairlead/block on the deck at a specific point so that when you gradually point the boat into the wind, the entire luff of the sail breaks at the same time (the leading edge of the sail). If it breaks up high first then your lead is too far aft and if it breaks on the bottom half first, the lead is too far forward. Find the right spot and the sail will luff consistently up the leading edge of the sail. But, nothing is totally never that easy. If the wind pipes up so you are starting to fight the tiller/helm, then you can bring the headsail lead aft a bit to spill wind off the top, lower the traveler car on the main (if you have one) to leeward and tighten up the backstay (if you have an adjuster).
The other thing racers do when it is blowing very hard - going to windward - is to pull in the jib sheet very tight and point the boat into the wind so that the inside tell tales are flying straight up and the outside telltales are flying straight back. This is called feathering, but most sailors out for a day sail don't want to expose themselves to such conditions and will usually head in by then.
So, if you aren't going to buy a boat with a fin keel, or a keel that drops or lowers to the point where you can get 4-5 feet of keel down below the boat then don't expect the wing to solve your problem - but it is better than a shoal draft without a wing. And, of course, new sails, trimmed properly will also help with windward performance as well as other points of sail. That's my 2-cents.
Thanks! 2 cents well spent. I'm getting the feeling like I need a new main. Any idea how much one would cost? Around 90 sq ft, made from basic material.
Actually! You can get a quote right here from the SBO store
Tried SBO shop here. My boat was listed but no options were given. That sorta sucks.Actually! You can get a quote right here from the SBO store