In the recent discussion about older shoal draft H27s and others, a reply hinted/suggested that we should be able to get higher than 55 degrees or even 50. We will admit to being all but lubbers and the helmsman is not all that adept, as yet, at watching wind, water, and compass all at the same time. So, what should our goal be? We are not interested in racing efficency, just avoiding looking too inept.
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On the wind
Andy, there are a few variables that will determine how close to the wind you can sail. One is the condition of the sails, are they in good shape or stretched and baggy? Another is the placement of the jib lead and the main traveler. Also, the tension of the rigging and the mast rake, if any, can have an effect. Of course, hull, keel, and rudder shape all come into play but, these are not easily manipulated. When you are close hauled and in the vacinity of comparable sized boats, check how well you are pointed compared to the others. Play around with sail shape and see what happens. I sail a '77 h30 and am always tinkering with sail shape to get the best performance and see how close I can sail, but in the end all I've really accomplished is another degree, another tenth of a knot, lots of frustration and a spilled beer.If you can get within 50 degrees and still maintain comfort and speed, go out, have fun, and don't lose any sleep over it. Happy sailing. Roland S/V Fraulein II
Andy, there are a few variables that will determine how close to the wind you can sail. One is the condition of the sails, are they in good shape or stretched and baggy? Another is the placement of the jib lead and the main traveler. Also, the tension of the rigging and the mast rake, if any, can have an effect. Of course, hull, keel, and rudder shape all come into play but, these are not easily manipulated. When you are close hauled and in the vacinity of comparable sized boats, check how well you are pointed compared to the others. Play around with sail shape and see what happens. I sail a '77 h30 and am always tinkering with sail shape to get the best performance and see how close I can sail, but in the end all I've really accomplished is another degree, another tenth of a knot, lots of frustration and a spilled beer.If you can get within 50 degrees and still maintain comfort and speed, go out, have fun, and don't lose any sleep over it. Happy sailing. Roland S/V Fraulein II
Sucking up to the wind...
First of all, I do not pretend to be a racer or a small boat specialist. However, I simply love sailing against the wind and some general principles appear to apply to all the different types of sailboats that I have had the privilege of playing with over the years. If shoal draft is a given, you will have to learn how to sail upwind with "one hand tied to your back". However, if Paganini was able to write some of his best concertos while using a violin with only 2 strings, you should be able to get good upwind performance out of a well-tuned shoal draft Hunter as long as you concentrate on the following points: (1) Get rid of unnecessary weight while making sure that as much of the remaining weight as possible can be moved to weather in order to reduce heel. Water ballast would be great. You said you wanted to "look good"; perhaps you should considering hiking out on a spare halyard while using a tiller extension.......... (2) Get the best sails you can afford. Not baggy, but firm and sharp like a blade. The main fully battened. Main and jib well balanced to reduce excessive weather helm. Always remember: on a close-hauled tack your main will need to give you the power while your jib primarily helps to balance the main (the clew often needs to be pulled further inboard than normal to keep both telltales streaming). (3) Make sure your hull is clean and smooth without unnecessary propellors or other drag-inducing underwater appendices. This will allow you to make maximum use of the forward component of your speed vector. The rationale of keeping the boat flat is easy to see. The more you heel, the less draft you end up having. In the book "fatal storm", describing the '99 Sydney-Hobart race you can see a larger, fairly deep-keeled but also strongly heeled yacht simply skudding sideways through the force of the wind rather than making way. Newer, flatter sails will alow you to carry more sail without excessive heel (especially if you learn to trim them well for the prevailing wind conditions). A well-balanced jib/mainsail plan will allow you to reduce weather helm, thereby avoiding having to use your rudder as a giant drag device which reduces your forward speed vector. Then, just take her out there and play with the wind and the sails; trying every sail control adjustment at your disposal. Once the ballast (including railmeat) is in place and the sails are well set, it is up to the helmsperson to keep her "in the groove" (always tending towards less heel than one would with a deeper keel). WARNING: Before you are starting to like it too much you should try to make up your mind whether you would rather be a hot race-bum or, perhaps, a cruising beachcomber. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
First of all, I do not pretend to be a racer or a small boat specialist. However, I simply love sailing against the wind and some general principles appear to apply to all the different types of sailboats that I have had the privilege of playing with over the years. If shoal draft is a given, you will have to learn how to sail upwind with "one hand tied to your back". However, if Paganini was able to write some of his best concertos while using a violin with only 2 strings, you should be able to get good upwind performance out of a well-tuned shoal draft Hunter as long as you concentrate on the following points: (1) Get rid of unnecessary weight while making sure that as much of the remaining weight as possible can be moved to weather in order to reduce heel. Water ballast would be great. You said you wanted to "look good"; perhaps you should considering hiking out on a spare halyard while using a tiller extension.......... (2) Get the best sails you can afford. Not baggy, but firm and sharp like a blade. The main fully battened. Main and jib well balanced to reduce excessive weather helm. Always remember: on a close-hauled tack your main will need to give you the power while your jib primarily helps to balance the main (the clew often needs to be pulled further inboard than normal to keep both telltales streaming). (3) Make sure your hull is clean and smooth without unnecessary propellors or other drag-inducing underwater appendices. This will allow you to make maximum use of the forward component of your speed vector. The rationale of keeping the boat flat is easy to see. The more you heel, the less draft you end up having. In the book "fatal storm", describing the '99 Sydney-Hobart race you can see a larger, fairly deep-keeled but also strongly heeled yacht simply skudding sideways through the force of the wind rather than making way. Newer, flatter sails will alow you to carry more sail without excessive heel (especially if you learn to trim them well for the prevailing wind conditions). A well-balanced jib/mainsail plan will allow you to reduce weather helm, thereby avoiding having to use your rudder as a giant drag device which reduces your forward speed vector. Then, just take her out there and play with the wind and the sails; trying every sail control adjustment at your disposal. Once the ballast (including railmeat) is in place and the sails are well set, it is up to the helmsperson to keep her "in the groove" (always tending towards less heel than one would with a deeper keel). WARNING: Before you are starting to like it too much you should try to make up your mind whether you would rather be a hot race-bum or, perhaps, a cruising beachcomber. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Agree with Roland, but. . .
I don't find my shoal-draft H37C to be as bad as made out in some earlier threads. True, it has a new main and three sails. But it also has a less than accomplished skipper. I wish I could tell with some accuracy but I am certain it's a lot better than 50. Soon we'll be side-by-side testing this theory, right Andy?
I don't find my shoal-draft H37C to be as bad as made out in some earlier threads. True, it has a new main and three sails. But it also has a less than accomplished skipper. I wish I could tell with some accuracy but I am certain it's a lot better than 50. Soon we'll be side-by-side testing this theory, right Andy?
How close (addendum)
Thank you gentlemen,the learned and humorous replies are of help as they are in line with what I read this evening in Advanced Sailing by Tony Gibbs. In short, perhaps we try to be perfect playing defense in a constantly changing environment. In many cases we may be reacting to what the wind and water were doing a few minutes ago not having the experienced eye to quickly note the changes. Our sails, at least the main, is well used but it is at the loft being amended as much as possible. Henk, I did not say I wanted to look good, it is beyond my ability and nature. I just do not want to look foolish and embarrass my boat. "Hiking out," for me, would add positive evidence to Darwinian Theory. I will take you up on your offer of experimenting Ed. Andy
Thank you gentlemen,the learned and humorous replies are of help as they are in line with what I read this evening in Advanced Sailing by Tony Gibbs. In short, perhaps we try to be perfect playing defense in a constantly changing environment. In many cases we may be reacting to what the wind and water were doing a few minutes ago not having the experienced eye to quickly note the changes. Our sails, at least the main, is well used but it is at the loft being amended as much as possible. Henk, I did not say I wanted to look good, it is beyond my ability and nature. I just do not want to look foolish and embarrass my boat. "Hiking out," for me, would add positive evidence to Darwinian Theory. I will take you up on your offer of experimenting Ed. Andy
sail aids
Hello Andy: Just my two cents worth. I find, after making all the sail adjustments, that, the telltales on the jib, and the tacking arms on the windvane are used the most, to sail the boat as close to the wind as possible. Be aware that these devices indicate apparent wind, not true wind. Using the above, depending on wind strength, I have been able to sail as close as 45 deg to true wind with my shoal draft '78 h27, without excessive leeway. Of course there are many other factors that will prevent you from pointing well,such as sea state, wind strength, heel angle, attitude of Admiral etc. Anyway, always make sure you have the same amount of souls onboard, on your return, as when you left. Good luck red
Hello Andy: Just my two cents worth. I find, after making all the sail adjustments, that, the telltales on the jib, and the tacking arms on the windvane are used the most, to sail the boat as close to the wind as possible. Be aware that these devices indicate apparent wind, not true wind. Using the above, depending on wind strength, I have been able to sail as close as 45 deg to true wind with my shoal draft '78 h27, without excessive leeway. Of course there are many other factors that will prevent you from pointing well,such as sea state, wind strength, heel angle, attitude of Admiral etc. Anyway, always make sure you have the same amount of souls onboard, on your return, as when you left. Good luck red
Hey Red, how about some details?
Tell us more about the set-up at 45 degrees and no leeway: Weather conditions, Jib size and set up, especially where is the fairlead block? Main set-up? Trim and heel of the hull? I ask because my best to date is 45 degrees off the apparent wind with a good 10 to 15 degrees of leeway. (By the GPS) Thanks, David
Tell us more about the set-up at 45 degrees and no leeway: Weather conditions, Jib size and set up, especially where is the fairlead block? Main set-up? Trim and heel of the hull? I ask because my best to date is 45 degrees off the apparent wind with a good 10 to 15 degrees of leeway. (By the GPS) Thanks, David
No secrets
Hello Dave: Here is answer to your questions. Jib= 110 main= full batten,with foot shortened by 18" end boom sheeting to traveler over rear cooler, with vang hull very clean (clean once a month, beauty of living in S Fl) keel= shoal draft-3'3" Im guessing leeway in calm water is 3-5deg vane tack arms set about 30-35deg apart, can sail just inside these under ideal conditions, 12 kts,calm water, protected river, prop locked I verify tack angle by compass. Most important to keep boat on her feet. Also tiller steering Did I miss anything? Anyway, keep smiling,it confuses them. Good luck red
Hello Dave: Here is answer to your questions. Jib= 110 main= full batten,with foot shortened by 18" end boom sheeting to traveler over rear cooler, with vang hull very clean (clean once a month, beauty of living in S Fl) keel= shoal draft-3'3" Im guessing leeway in calm water is 3-5deg vane tack arms set about 30-35deg apart, can sail just inside these under ideal conditions, 12 kts,calm water, protected river, prop locked I verify tack angle by compass. Most important to keep boat on her feet. Also tiller steering Did I miss anything? Anyway, keep smiling,it confuses them. Good luck red
Thanks, Red - Good Stuff
I'll try your set-up when I get in the water this spring. I'm also going to use a barber-hauler to pull the jib clew farther inboard. (My standard setup is a block on the rail.) Another difference could be the sea state. I'm seeing 3 foot waves most of the time the wind is good.
I'll try your set-up when I get in the water this spring. I'm also going to use a barber-hauler to pull the jib clew farther inboard. (My standard setup is a block on the rail.) Another difference could be the sea state. I'm seeing 3 foot waves most of the time the wind is good.
H27 Shoal the hardest
Andy the H27 with shoal draft and especially with a wheel is the worst Hunter upwind. Don't get me wrong, Ive had mine since 84 and love it. After all the tinkering and adjusting you will never be able to keep up with other 27'ers of other makes upwind. But you can sleep 5-6. And have an interior layout that beats most 32'ers of different makes. It's a good trade off. Just cruise sit back play jimmy buffet and relax while others race by and let them worry about " just avoiding looking too inept." Remember they paid an extra $10,000.00 and gave up on any comfort to look so damn good on their super, duper, fantastic, 27.
Andy the H27 with shoal draft and especially with a wheel is the worst Hunter upwind. Don't get me wrong, Ive had mine since 84 and love it. After all the tinkering and adjusting you will never be able to keep up with other 27'ers of other makes upwind. But you can sleep 5-6. And have an interior layout that beats most 32'ers of different makes. It's a good trade off. Just cruise sit back play jimmy buffet and relax while others race by and let them worry about " just avoiding looking too inept." Remember they paid an extra $10,000.00 and gave up on any comfort to look so damn good on their super, duper, fantastic, 27.
Mr Brady's comment.
LOL Nice comment, John! I love club racing but I agree with the Jimmy Buffett part. Besides there is always the possibility you will beat people on rating– there's a certain sly satisfaction in benefitting from a 'sleeper'. [wink] JC
LOL Nice comment, John! I love club racing but I agree with the Jimmy Buffett part. Besides there is always the possibility you will beat people on rating– there's a certain sly satisfaction in benefitting from a 'sleeper'. [wink] JC
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