I have a Beneteau 321, and frequently singlehand (even when the Mrs. is along. In the last few months I have been thinking more and more about rigging a self tacking jib to ease the workload on longer trips in reasonable winds. I would like retain the ability to fly a 150 genoa. This would necessitate installing a removable lower forestay. Would this cause any problem with mast stability? What are your opinions concerning the self tacking jib concept? Thanks
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Michael Doran
Single Handled Jibsheets
It sounds like your intention is to rig as a cutter (i.e., allowing use of two headsails), but to only use the inner headsail when single handled. I do not believe that the extra forestay would be a problem with mast stability, but moving the center of wind forces further aft could increase weather helm. I would make sure I use the same wire rope size and as sturdy deck and mast attachments as for your current forestay. I single handle a 25 ft cruiser all of the time, and do not find handling the jib sheets to be much of a problem as the winches and cleats are within easy reach in the cockpit. When single handling in moderate to stiff air I tend to use a smaller jib so that the sail is easier to handle (less winching). As an alternative to a "self tacking" arrangement, you might want to consider whether your jibsheet cleat placement could be improved. Getting the MS to help with the sheets would be the best answer.
It sounds like your intention is to rig as a cutter (i.e., allowing use of two headsails), but to only use the inner headsail when single handled. I do not believe that the extra forestay would be a problem with mast stability, but moving the center of wind forces further aft could increase weather helm. I would make sure I use the same wire rope size and as sturdy deck and mast attachments as for your current forestay. I single handle a 25 ft cruiser all of the time, and do not find handling the jib sheets to be much of a problem as the winches and cleats are within easy reach in the cockpit. When single handling in moderate to stiff air I tend to use a smaller jib so that the sail is easier to handle (less winching). As an alternative to a "self tacking" arrangement, you might want to consider whether your jibsheet cleat placement could be improved. Getting the MS to help with the sheets would be the best answer.
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Jon McClain
Self Tacking Jib
Michael, Sorry for the poor description of my problem. The Beneteau 321 has a forward support guy or stay that runs from about 1/3 of the way down from the masthead to the deck about 4+' in front of the mast. This is in addition to the forestay (full masthead rig). This stay would need to be removable to make room for self-tacking rigging. The new 90% jibe would be mounted on the existing roller furling in place of the 150% genoa. My concern is whether the removal of this forward mast support would dangerously weaken the mast. Another concern is the effect it would have on the performance of the classic main sail. The mast would shape differently under load with out the lower stay. Thanks!
Michael, Sorry for the poor description of my problem. The Beneteau 321 has a forward support guy or stay that runs from about 1/3 of the way down from the masthead to the deck about 4+' in front of the mast. This is in addition to the forestay (full masthead rig). This stay would need to be removable to make room for self-tacking rigging. The new 90% jibe would be mounted on the existing roller furling in place of the 150% genoa. My concern is whether the removal of this forward mast support would dangerously weaken the mast. Another concern is the effect it would have on the performance of the classic main sail. The mast would shape differently under load with out the lower stay. Thanks!
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Joe
changing the rig design...
Removing a permanent inner forestay for the purpose of rigging a self tacking jib is essentially changing the sail plan from cutter to sloop rig. The very first thing I would do is contact Beneteau for their comments and suggestions. Then I would consider having a rigger or experienced cruiser offer their opinion. Your concerns about mast/rig stability would be answered with these inquiries. Essentially it's a matter of balancing the forces on the mast. Personally I would be more concerned with the effects on the mast when ADDING an inner forestay, than removing one. On a masthead rig, if you were running with staysail only, there should be some counter-acting force to balance that on the inner forestay. A running backstay would provide such a force. So would the leech of a reefed mainsail. I'm of the opinion that simply re-tuning the rig without the inner forestay would probably be adequate, but I'd still call Beneteau In regards to single handing a cutter rig, I am very sympathetic to your situation. Keeping the genoa from hanging up on the inner forestay during a tack can be difficult without an extra pair of hands. If the staysail is not self-tacking, you can get some help by letting it backwind a bit. This allows the genny to ride on the staysail until it's through the gap. A self-tacking staysail will go across too early to help the headsail. A sloop rig is much easier to handle by yourself. If you remove the inner forestay you'll not need the self-tacking jib. An auto pilot is mandatory if your crew is unwilling to help. Winch and cleat placement close to the helm is also beneficial.
Removing a permanent inner forestay for the purpose of rigging a self tacking jib is essentially changing the sail plan from cutter to sloop rig. The very first thing I would do is contact Beneteau for their comments and suggestions. Then I would consider having a rigger or experienced cruiser offer their opinion. Your concerns about mast/rig stability would be answered with these inquiries. Essentially it's a matter of balancing the forces on the mast. Personally I would be more concerned with the effects on the mast when ADDING an inner forestay, than removing one. On a masthead rig, if you were running with staysail only, there should be some counter-acting force to balance that on the inner forestay. A running backstay would provide such a force. So would the leech of a reefed mainsail. I'm of the opinion that simply re-tuning the rig without the inner forestay would probably be adequate, but I'd still call Beneteau In regards to single handing a cutter rig, I am very sympathetic to your situation. Keeping the genoa from hanging up on the inner forestay during a tack can be difficult without an extra pair of hands. If the staysail is not self-tacking, you can get some help by letting it backwind a bit. This allows the genny to ride on the staysail until it's through the gap. A self-tacking staysail will go across too early to help the headsail. A sloop rig is much easier to handle by yourself. If you remove the inner forestay you'll not need the self-tacking jib. An auto pilot is mandatory if your crew is unwilling to help. Winch and cleat placement close to the helm is also beneficial.
Self tacking jib
Hi John, Alot of good thoughts in the previous posts. Let me add a couple of things. I have many customers that do exactly what you want to do, be able to set a self tacking jib for heavier breeze conditions. What they have is a smaller jib that they change to, removing the 150%. The boats have a separate self tacking arrangement just for the small jib, and it is set up to allow the Jib to be furled on the furler. Alot less expense that a second stay and all the reinforcement, chainplate and associated hardware required. Your sailmaker or a good rigger should be able to help you design a self tacking set up for a smaller jib.
Hi John, Alot of good thoughts in the previous posts. Let me add a couple of things. I have many customers that do exactly what you want to do, be able to set a self tacking jib for heavier breeze conditions. What they have is a smaller jib that they change to, removing the 150%. The boats have a separate self tacking arrangement just for the small jib, and it is set up to allow the Jib to be furled on the furler. Alot less expense that a second stay and all the reinforcement, chainplate and associated hardware required. Your sailmaker or a good rigger should be able to help you design a self tacking set up for a smaller jib.
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Jon McClain
Self Tackiing Jib - Thanks Tim
Tim and Others, Thanks for the replies. Tim, Your description of the setup is exactly as I envisioned. Remove the 150% and hoist a smaller (90%) self tacking setup on the roller furler. Use a single line control for the self tacker led to the cockpit to enable the jib to be eased out when necessary. (I have a 105% jib that could be recut for this purpose.) My original question was misinterpreted due to my poor explanation of the problem. So, let me take one more stab at it. The Beneteau 321 has slightly swept spreaders and side support rigging. There is a support wire rig from 1/3 down from the masthead to a point forward on the deck about 4' in front of the mast on the centerline, between the two forward hatches. In order to accommodate the self tacker, this support would need to removed or at least temporarily detached. My concern is whether removal would serious affect mast support. Since this piece of rigging connects to an intermediate point on the mast, would its removal has a negative effect on the shape and efficiency of the classic mainsail? The attached photo is truly worth a thousand words. Thanks.
Tim and Others, Thanks for the replies. Tim, Your description of the setup is exactly as I envisioned. Remove the 150% and hoist a smaller (90%) self tacking setup on the roller furler. Use a single line control for the self tacker led to the cockpit to enable the jib to be eased out when necessary. (I have a 105% jib that could be recut for this purpose.) My original question was misinterpreted due to my poor explanation of the problem. So, let me take one more stab at it. The Beneteau 321 has slightly swept spreaders and side support rigging. There is a support wire rig from 1/3 down from the masthead to a point forward on the deck about 4' in front of the mast on the centerline, between the two forward hatches. In order to accommodate the self tacker, this support would need to removed or at least temporarily detached. My concern is whether removal would serious affect mast support. Since this piece of rigging connects to an intermediate point on the mast, would its removal has a negative effect on the shape and efficiency of the classic mainsail? The attached photo is truly worth a thousand words. Thanks.
It's called a Baby Stay
This arrangement was common on many French boats, ie. Beneteau's and Jeanneau's, and older IOR racers. It's really old school thinking. On the older boats it was there to limit the mast pumping fore and aft. On deck stepped masts it was used in lieu of fwd lower shrouds. You may wish to contact a reputable local rigger or call a spar maker to see if removing the stay wiil cause any instability. Many newer boats have swept spreaders, no forward lowers, and no baby stay, and they do not have any stability problems. I have clients that have removed their Baby Stays without adverse effect. But, I am not a rig engineer, so my advice would again be to speak with a rigger or mast maker before permanently removing the stay.
This arrangement was common on many French boats, ie. Beneteau's and Jeanneau's, and older IOR racers. It's really old school thinking. On the older boats it was there to limit the mast pumping fore and aft. On deck stepped masts it was used in lieu of fwd lower shrouds. You may wish to contact a reputable local rigger or call a spar maker to see if removing the stay wiil cause any instability. Many newer boats have swept spreaders, no forward lowers, and no baby stay, and they do not have any stability problems. I have clients that have removed their Baby Stays without adverse effect. But, I am not a rig engineer, so my advice would again be to speak with a rigger or mast maker before permanently removing the stay.
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Neil
Warning! Baby stay is needed!
I have a Beneteau F235. It's 7/8 rigged, but it also has a baby stay and slightly aft-swept shrouds. It's usually very light where I sail, and the darn baby stay kept catching the headsail in light-air tacks. I read somewhere that it (baby stay) is not needed in light air so I removed it, and my tacks are much better now (if only I can learn 'when' to tack too). However, I went out on a friend's F235 a couple of weeks ago in quite a blow, by our standards (breeze in the upper teens/lower 20s). He recently bought the boat and hasn't rigged the baby stay yet. We were OK down wind in 15-20, but coming back the gusts picked up a bit and the middle of the mast literally started inverting (bending aftward in the middle)! Very scary! We depowered the double-reefed main (which pulled the middle of the mast further aft every time we sheeted it in), and crept home. I really thought the mast would break at one stage! When I get my boat back in the water, I'll re-rig my baby stay by removing the turnbuckle and adding pulley/jammer set-up terminating in a snap-shackle so I can easily install the BS when the wind picks up - at that stage I would usually have changed down to a smaller jib too, so it'll tack better anyway. Neil
I have a Beneteau F235. It's 7/8 rigged, but it also has a baby stay and slightly aft-swept shrouds. It's usually very light where I sail, and the darn baby stay kept catching the headsail in light-air tacks. I read somewhere that it (baby stay) is not needed in light air so I removed it, and my tacks are much better now (if only I can learn 'when' to tack too). However, I went out on a friend's F235 a couple of weeks ago in quite a blow, by our standards (breeze in the upper teens/lower 20s). He recently bought the boat and hasn't rigged the baby stay yet. We were OK down wind in 15-20, but coming back the gusts picked up a bit and the middle of the mast literally started inverting (bending aftward in the middle)! Very scary! We depowered the double-reefed main (which pulled the middle of the mast further aft every time we sheeted it in), and crept home. I really thought the mast would break at one stage! When I get my boat back in the water, I'll re-rig my baby stay by removing the turnbuckle and adding pulley/jammer set-up terminating in a snap-shackle so I can easily install the BS when the wind picks up - at that stage I would usually have changed down to a smaller jib too, so it'll tack better anyway. Neil
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