A few months ago I opened a floor panel on my Hunter Passage 42 to find the water level was only a few inches below the floor boards (yes, that sinking feeling). The problem was a failed bilge pump switch - the traditional Rule mercury float type. Having never failed before, I hadn't given the pump switches much thought. In shopping for a new one I was surprised to see manufacturers' proudly offering a '2 Year Warranty'. This is a device that is intended to keep my investment on top of the water instead of under it and its only designed and built to last two years ??? The other concern I had in looking at the old switch was the wisdom of a design which places a hot wire perpetually in the water. I found the solution at West Marine. An electronic switch that is mounted entirely above the water and activates when the water rises to touch a sensor on the bottom of the plastic case. And a lifetime warranty ! Perfect, problem solved ! Last week I again lifted a floor board looking for something and - you guessed it - that sinking feeling. The new switch had failed in the ON state, thereby burning out the pump by running it dry for who knows how long. Now I have a failed $40 switch with a lifetime warranty that killed an $85 pump on its way out and a boat without its primary protection against sinking. There has to be a better way. Comments PLEASE !!!
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Lee
Float Switch
The float switches require periodic maintenance especially if you have a less that spotless bilge. Make sure that there is no slime or other contamination in the bilge. As for the switch, you can install two switches in parallel so when either one closes, the pump will activate. Once in a while, use your finger to lift the float on the switch to make sure is free and twice a year remove the switches and wash them with a hose to remove any contamination and slime you cannot see from the top. The pump can also be opened and cleaned because sometimes hair(if you have a dog) can get wrapped around the impeller and give you trouble. I had both pumps and switches needing replacing but found that out during routine maintenance rather than the hard way. But now that I have a dripless shaft seal, the only way water can get in the bilge is when I remove the speed transducer for its routine cleaning. Hope this helps.
The float switches require periodic maintenance especially if you have a less that spotless bilge. Make sure that there is no slime or other contamination in the bilge. As for the switch, you can install two switches in parallel so when either one closes, the pump will activate. Once in a while, use your finger to lift the float on the switch to make sure is free and twice a year remove the switches and wash them with a hose to remove any contamination and slime you cannot see from the top. The pump can also be opened and cleaned because sometimes hair(if you have a dog) can get wrapped around the impeller and give you trouble. I had both pumps and switches needing replacing but found that out during routine maintenance rather than the hard way. But now that I have a dripless shaft seal, the only way water can get in the bilge is when I remove the speed transducer for its routine cleaning. Hope this helps.
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larry w.
float switch
Victor; Mount a traditional float switch so it doesn't become immersed and attach a wood or metal arm with a piece of closed-cell foam or a hollow plastic float to the end of it. When the water rises, it will trip the switch, but the switch is not IN the water. (This is similiar to the way a toilet tank valve works)
Victor; Mount a traditional float switch so it doesn't become immersed and attach a wood or metal arm with a piece of closed-cell foam or a hollow plastic float to the end of it. When the water rises, it will trip the switch, but the switch is not IN the water. (This is similiar to the way a toilet tank valve works)
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bill walton
Ultra
Spend a hundred bucks and get the Ultra switch. It's also available through West. It works a bit differently. They may be available here iin the chandlery aas well. I have that on my 42 along with a counter that will tell me how many times it maayhave gone off while I was away. I have a dry bilge so this alwaays reads zero but I thought it would be nice to know. The switch haas a magnet enclosed in some type of float in a plastic tube around ... well find a description of it, it's too hard to describe. But it''s generally accepted to be the best type of switch.
Spend a hundred bucks and get the Ultra switch. It's also available through West. It works a bit differently. They may be available here iin the chandlery aas well. I have that on my 42 along with a counter that will tell me how many times it maayhave gone off while I was away. I have a dry bilge so this alwaays reads zero but I thought it would be nice to know. The switch haas a magnet enclosed in some type of float in a plastic tube around ... well find a description of it, it's too hard to describe. But it''s generally accepted to be the best type of switch.
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Carl and Juliana Dupre
Us Too!
Hi, Victor. Been there; done that. One day last year we boarded our then 3-month old 2001 H340 to find a perfectly dry bilge and the pump running furiously. Didn't burn the pump, but the battery was nearly dead. We talked the problem up around our boatyard, and it is very common. A number of boats in the yard, after repeated incidents, in frustration had disabled the auto switches and effectively reverted to a manual-on bilge pump. At the time we simply replaced the float switch with another of the same model; cheapest, quickest and easiest thing to do for the immediate moment. Then we did a bit of research. We concluded that all float-type switches are susceptible to failure due to either corrosion or hang-up with solids "stuff" in the bilge. The best that we saw was a "switch" based simply on two wires; one wire placed low in the bilge, the other higher up. When the water level reached the upper wire, the water became the "electrical connector" that completed the circuit and started the pump. The boatyard manager uses them in all his working launches and boats and swears by them. We will replace our current float switch with this at some future time. Sorry; can't remember the name and model; the boatyard shop sells them and we will try to find out. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Hi, Victor. Been there; done that. One day last year we boarded our then 3-month old 2001 H340 to find a perfectly dry bilge and the pump running furiously. Didn't burn the pump, but the battery was nearly dead. We talked the problem up around our boatyard, and it is very common. A number of boats in the yard, after repeated incidents, in frustration had disabled the auto switches and effectively reverted to a manual-on bilge pump. At the time we simply replaced the float switch with another of the same model; cheapest, quickest and easiest thing to do for the immediate moment. Then we did a bit of research. We concluded that all float-type switches are susceptible to failure due to either corrosion or hang-up with solids "stuff" in the bilge. The best that we saw was a "switch" based simply on two wires; one wire placed low in the bilge, the other higher up. When the water level reached the upper wire, the water became the "electrical connector" that completed the circuit and started the pump. The boatyard manager uses them in all his working launches and boats and swears by them. We will replace our current float switch with this at some future time. Sorry; can't remember the name and model; the boatyard shop sells them and we will try to find out. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
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Doug T.
Watery wire = watery grave
If you use the water in the bilge as your "switch", all of the dissimilar metals that are in contact with your bilge water are now in the circuit. That could include the bilge pump (of course), the keel bolts, other wires that may be passing through, perhaps a thruhull or two (depending on the level of the water), etc. You've also now electrically connected the battery through the bottom of your boat to your prop, shaft, engine, etc. If that "switch" is in the "on" position for any length of time, you soon won't have any metal left on the bottom of your boat!!!!! This is a bad thing! How often does your boatyard manager replace the zincs on his boats? Once a week???
If you use the water in the bilge as your "switch", all of the dissimilar metals that are in contact with your bilge water are now in the circuit. That could include the bilge pump (of course), the keel bolts, other wires that may be passing through, perhaps a thruhull or two (depending on the level of the water), etc. You've also now electrically connected the battery through the bottom of your boat to your prop, shaft, engine, etc. If that "switch" is in the "on" position for any length of time, you soon won't have any metal left on the bottom of your boat!!!!! This is a bad thing! How often does your boatyard manager replace the zincs on his boats? Once a week???
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Carl and Juliana Dupre
I Stand Corrected!
Thanks for the correction, Doug T. As I have said here quite often, I am more than a little "electrically challenged" (but learning fast, as I am continuing to here). It's apparent that I don't know the real principle on which that switch operates. However, I believe that I have described it accurately in a physical appearance, and it is not a home-made job that the boatyard manager cooked up; it is a commercially-available switch that really does work! I obviously just don't really know HOW it works. I shall try to learn more (and more, and....) and report back if I do. Carl
Thanks for the correction, Doug T. As I have said here quite often, I am more than a little "electrically challenged" (but learning fast, as I am continuing to here). It's apparent that I don't know the real principle on which that switch operates. However, I believe that I have described it accurately in a physical appearance, and it is not a home-made job that the boatyard manager cooked up; it is a commercially-available switch that really does work! I obviously just don't really know HOW it works. I shall try to learn more (and more, and....) and report back if I do. Carl
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Derek Rowell
Don't stand corrected....(just yet)
Let's think about this a little. If the submerged electrode is properly grounded to the electrical system we will not have a problem while the switch is off. Now, it's very simple to make an electronic switch where the on-current would be measured in nano-amps (10^-9 amp or .000000001 amp). Given that the current will flow only when the bilge is flooded, I cannot see that this level of current would cause a huge galvanic problem, even if left on until the battery is drained. And if it turned out to be a problem, there are a couple of possibilities: 1)turn the current on briefly every second or so, or 2) make an ac based sensor with a simple oscillator and pure ac coupling to the electrodes so that no dc current flows. I'm not sure what the commercial unit does, but I would tend to trust it. Derek
Let's think about this a little. If the submerged electrode is properly grounded to the electrical system we will not have a problem while the switch is off. Now, it's very simple to make an electronic switch where the on-current would be measured in nano-amps (10^-9 amp or .000000001 amp). Given that the current will flow only when the bilge is flooded, I cannot see that this level of current would cause a huge galvanic problem, even if left on until the battery is drained. And if it turned out to be a problem, there are a couple of possibilities: 1)turn the current on briefly every second or so, or 2) make an ac based sensor with a simple oscillator and pure ac coupling to the electrodes so that no dc current flows. I'm not sure what the commercial unit does, but I would tend to trust it. Derek
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Doug T.
Solenoid??
If the switch is acting as you suggest -- basically as a solenoid to switch the current in the bilge pump, then you're right -- it wouldn't cause much of a problem. I had assumed that is was switching the full current of the bilge pump. I'd be curious to know how it really worked.
If the switch is acting as you suggest -- basically as a solenoid to switch the current in the bilge pump, then you're right -- it wouldn't cause much of a problem. I had assumed that is was switching the full current of the bilge pump. I'd be curious to know how it really worked.
Had several Rule Pumps/switches too.
Vic: I had several of the Rule switches and pumps. I finally decided to try the West Marine brand pump (the switch is built in). It has been fine for several years now. You may want to consider this. Place one pump in the original position where it is now. Then mount a piece of plastic or marine plywood in the bilge 1/2" to 1" thick. Mount a second pump on this platform. The idea here is to keep one of the pumps high and dry in case the primary pump fails. This will mean that you also want an additional thru hull fitting and hose. I do not think that there is anyway to be sure that you are NOT going to have a failure but a redundant system will help.
Vic: I had several of the Rule switches and pumps. I finally decided to try the West Marine brand pump (the switch is built in). It has been fine for several years now. You may want to consider this. Place one pump in the original position where it is now. Then mount a piece of plastic or marine plywood in the bilge 1/2" to 1" thick. Mount a second pump on this platform. The idea here is to keep one of the pumps high and dry in case the primary pump fails. This will mean that you also want an additional thru hull fitting and hose. I do not think that there is anyway to be sure that you are NOT going to have a failure but a redundant system will help.
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Carl and Juliana Dupre
Switch Research
Well, we couldn't get out boatyard manager on the phone yesterday. We can't understand it, but for some strange reason he seems to be incredibly busy this time of year and just can't be gotten on the phone. So we went to our when-in-doubt initial research source, which is Calder's "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical..etc.". Calder describes all of the different types of bilge pump switches, and the device that we saw, and I so poorly described, by Calder's description is clearly a conductivity sensor. The rising water bridges an electrical gap in a sensor circuit which indeed does act as a solenoid and switches on the bilge pump. However, the sensor curcuit is not part of the bilge pump power circuit itself, so no galvanic catastrophe. What attracted us to the device was the sheer simplicity of it; no moving floats to hang-up, no mercury switches; just water closing an electrical gap. Calder expounds on the bilge pump switch topic for numerous pages; suffice to say that it's all a mixed bag with each type of switch having a variety of specific implementations, each with its pluses and minuses. But he concludes by saying that, whatever you decide to do; "putting your expensive boat in the hands of a cheap float switch is foolhardy". Hmmmm.......I think that float switch that, for the sake of expediency we quickly replaced in kind last summer, just went back onto the project "to-do" list. And we will be giving that conductivity sensor a close look. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Well, we couldn't get out boatyard manager on the phone yesterday. We can't understand it, but for some strange reason he seems to be incredibly busy this time of year and just can't be gotten on the phone. So we went to our when-in-doubt initial research source, which is Calder's "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical..etc.". Calder describes all of the different types of bilge pump switches, and the device that we saw, and I so poorly described, by Calder's description is clearly a conductivity sensor. The rising water bridges an electrical gap in a sensor circuit which indeed does act as a solenoid and switches on the bilge pump. However, the sensor curcuit is not part of the bilge pump power circuit itself, so no galvanic catastrophe. What attracted us to the device was the sheer simplicity of it; no moving floats to hang-up, no mercury switches; just water closing an electrical gap. Calder expounds on the bilge pump switch topic for numerous pages; suffice to say that it's all a mixed bag with each type of switch having a variety of specific implementations, each with its pluses and minuses. But he concludes by saying that, whatever you decide to do; "putting your expensive boat in the hands of a cheap float switch is foolhardy". Hmmmm.......I think that float switch that, for the sake of expediency we quickly replaced in kind last summer, just went back onto the project "to-do" list. And we will be giving that conductivity sensor a close look. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
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Mike
True Workings
The bilge switch described works on the the simple principle that bilge water is far from pure and that makes it conduct electricity to some degree. The electrodes or contacts do not carry the current for the bilge pump motor. When the contacts are bridged by water a miniscule current, that is limited by a resistor, is allowed to pass from one conductor to the other. This is recognized by an electronic curcuit which can turn on the bilge pump through a solid state switch (i.e. Transistor)or a relay. With the sensing current and voltage limited to the microamp and millivolt ranges electrolysis is not a problem. Happy Sails Mike
The bilge switch described works on the the simple principle that bilge water is far from pure and that makes it conduct electricity to some degree. The electrodes or contacts do not carry the current for the bilge pump motor. When the contacts are bridged by water a miniscule current, that is limited by a resistor, is allowed to pass from one conductor to the other. This is recognized by an electronic curcuit which can turn on the bilge pump through a solid state switch (i.e. Transistor)or a relay. With the sensing current and voltage limited to the microamp and millivolt ranges electrolysis is not a problem. Happy Sails Mike
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Doug T.
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Brent Headberg
The Perfect Bilge Pump
I have looked at all the various bilge pumps and switches out there trying to figure out what is the safest installation, but a friend of mine told me about a bilge pump that has no float switch, but a microprocessor that senses that the pump has water to pump. I think the way he explained it was that the microprocessor checks for flow every 5 seconds...if there is water to pump it goes on....click on the Related Link below. After reading all the posts about failed bilge pumps, I am going to consider installing one of these new fangled computerized pumps in our 1991 Hunter 335. I always have that fear that when I open the companionway, I'll see water sloshing around on the decks below, a scary thought. Good luck to all those bilge pump enthusiasts out there. Cap'n Brent S/V Elena Lua West Palm Beach, FL
I have looked at all the various bilge pumps and switches out there trying to figure out what is the safest installation, but a friend of mine told me about a bilge pump that has no float switch, but a microprocessor that senses that the pump has water to pump. I think the way he explained it was that the microprocessor checks for flow every 5 seconds...if there is water to pump it goes on....click on the Related Link below. After reading all the posts about failed bilge pumps, I am going to consider installing one of these new fangled computerized pumps in our 1991 Hunter 335. I always have that fear that when I open the companionway, I'll see water sloshing around on the decks below, a scary thought. Good luck to all those bilge pump enthusiasts out there. Cap'n Brent S/V Elena Lua West Palm Beach, FL
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Ed Schenck
Interesting thread, here's more.
See "Related Link", just a good summation of what has taken place here. My personal fix is: 1) regular maintenance, and 2) a second pump with integral switch mounted a little higher. But that "new" switch certainly has merit.
See "Related Link", just a good summation of what has taken place here. My personal fix is: 1) regular maintenance, and 2) a second pump with integral switch mounted a little higher. But that "new" switch certainly has merit.
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Derek Rowell
An electronic switch..
The link below is to the CruzPro switch. It comes from New Zealand, and their web site lists very few US dealers. If you go to their home page they seem to have lots of other interesting marine products.
The link below is to the CruzPro switch. It comes from New Zealand, and their web site lists very few US dealers. If you go to their home page they seem to have lots of other interesting marine products.
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