Seek Advice 1980 Hunter 37C: Do I need to add another halyard?

[Brazil]

Hello everyone. Please forgive this long-winded request. I’ve seen many great tips and help on the forum, but also seen confusion and tangents when enough details are not provided. Also, when asking more than one question at time, I have seen people only respond to one and ignore the others. Well, I’m happy to take whatever guidance you can provide.
First, a summary of the 3 questions:

#1: Do I need to install a 3rd halyard?
#2: Does my masthead already have a 3rd sheave?
#3: Is there any significant advantage to rope clutches over jam cleats for this halyard application?

My requests regard a 1980 Hunter 37 cutter, which currently has three halyards: main, staysail, and one for either jib or spinnaker, but not both. Halyard diameter is 11 mm. There are two winches, one on either side of the mast. The staysail halyard comes out partway between the top and the spreaders, just below the babystay. I am changing furlers from one with an internal halyard to one that needs one from the mast. Although I have had the mast down a few times, I can’t recall the sheave configuration at the top of the Kenyon 5280 mast. This mast uses an interchangeable luff track that captures all the wires in a channel completely separate from all halyards. I can’t recall if there are three sheaves at the top, or only two. With the new furler, I would be using all three halyards normally. I see two considerations for installing a additional halyard. If I needed to ascend to the top of the mast, I need one halyard for the main ascent and would need to take the jib off the furler to have a safety line. The other consideration is to have a way to use my asymmetric spinnaker without taking the jib off of the furler.

Question #1: can I get by with only two halyards going to the top of the mast, where one is dedicated to the jib furler, or should I have a third?

Question #2: Assuming a third halyard is wise, it seems like I have three options to resolve. A climb to the top of the mast would answer. However, since I’ll be paying a rigger to install the furler, I might save a few bucks if I know ahead of time and have all the hardware on hand.

1. There is an unused third sheave installed at the masthead
2. There is a space for a third sheave, but I’d need to have all the parts on hand
3. There are only two sheave locations, both populated, and I’d need to install an external halyard

IF 1), easy. Make sure during the new furler installation to attach forestay to the inboard connection. I’d cut an exit above the winch, add a cover plate. With only one winch port side, I’d add 3 CL210 Clamcleats (maybe with CL804 tapered pads) above the winch and a cleat below the winch. Also, add something at the masthead to allow a spinnaker halyard to run fair around the forestay when deployed. I’ve heard of a “spinnaker crane” to which I believe a block can be attached, allowing the block freedom both in azimuth and elevation, and the halyard fair of the forestay. Don’t know the details here.

IF 2), order the appropriate sheave from Rig Rite, and proceed as a) above.

IF 3), again, use the inboard connection for the forestay during furler installation. Also add a crane and block at the masthead. Rig external halyard to the same clamcleat and final cleat. I am concerned about mast slap. I already have running backstays, and with them and shrouds, it’s a lot to run to the toerail.

Question #3: Should I use jam cleats or rope clutches for the three halyards that would be going to the port mast winch? I’ve had good experience with jam cleats for this application on other boats, but no experience in this application with rope clutches.

Thanks very much in advance,
Naviget

 

[sail sfbay]

1: Do I need to install a 3rd halyard? Only if you plan to fly a staysail or spinnaker OR require a backup halyard to climb the mast. I have a 3rd halyard for a spinnaker or climbing the mast with my topping lift as a safety line.
#2: Does my masthead already have a 3rd sheave? You will need to climb the mast or send a drone up to check. Confirm mast manufacturer then buy parts from Rig Rite is an option.
#3: Is there any significant advantage to rope clutches over jam cleats for this halyard application? Rope clutch "locks" the halyard......would not use a jam cleat for this application. You might find this article helpful: Cleats, Clutches and Jammers – What’s the difference? (upffront.com).

 

[Joe]

My preference is to install an external spinnaker halyard on a masthead crane. Keeping it external makes it easier for you crew to get that chute up quickly by jumping the halyard. You have the staysail halyard that can be used as a topping lift should you rig up a pole. The 2 headsail halyards (behind) the forestay are certainly adequate. You can use the spin halyard or even the main halyard for the safety line. There are plenty of options to minimize halyard slap easily, so you might give that factor minimum weight in your decision. Bottom line, you need a proper spinnaker halyard way more than a 3rd behind the forestay jib halyard.

Regarding cleats. I'm not a big fan of clam cleats for halyards. Even though I prefer the simple horn, or even the horned/jam cleat, they can be cumbersome with winches. But, you need a cleat ahead of the winch to gain full advantage for multiple halyard use. Clutches can be a little rough on the rope if you do a lot of adjusting... but just being aware of that helps you minimize the "clutching" aspect.(it does for me) Anyway, since you've been satisfied with clam cleats, so far, I see no reason to change. You can always convert at another time.

 

[Jim Legere]

Your Kenyon spar has two sheaves for headsail halyards, a sheave below the tang for the inner forestay, and a sheave for the main halyard. The stock rig had one headsail halyard, one staysail halyard and one mainsail halyard. It also had a fixed wire topping lift on the aft of the mast head and two SS bails on the front of the mast crane (for blocks for external spinnaker halyards); in short, a lot of possibilities for the running rigging. When I replaced the original CDI furler (which had its own hoist back to a purchase on the drum) with a new Harken furler, I added a second headsail halyard for my gennaker, which lost its halyard to the furling jib. As mentioned, there is a sheave provided, but I had to cut an exit hole at the base of the mast and fit a Schaefer SS exit plate. Then there was the issue with winches. There are two winches on the mast but now there were four halyards to tension! I reasoned that the jib halyard on the Harken furler was 'set and forget' so I installed a 'jammer' on that one so that it could be tensioned, locked off, and the tail removed from the winch, leaving it free for the staysail halyard. When flying the gennaker, the jib is furled and the staysail is lowered, making the winch available for the gennaker halyard. The main is always on its own dedicated halyard winch on the other side of the mast. That was my set up. Of course the fun part about rigging is that there are many possible solutions. On my current boat (C&C Frigate), everything is led back to the cockpit, with two winches and banks of eight rope clutches on the cabin top. This works too, but I have a lot more rope tails snarling up the cockpit.

 

[Brazil]

Guys,

Thanks loads for your thoughtful responses. Huge help, since I am remote from the boat but need to stage all needed hardware for quick work when I return to the boat. Jim, as far as I can match my memory to your description, I do indeed have the standard original rig with fixed topping lift. I'll rely on your description of the sheaves and twin mast crane bails; I now recall seeing at least one and wondering what it was for.

I need help figuring which block to use on the crane. Halyard is 7/16 (11 mm). Going with Sampson XLS3, with specification of 7,300 lbs avg strength. Blocks needs to freely swivel in azimuth, elevation and rotation. For the size of H37C, Schaefer recommends their series 08-05 (working load 2750 lbs) or M66-05 (working load 2800 lbs). Shopping Defender, I'm liking the Selden 60 mm plain bearing block, 406-001-01, working load 2425 lbs. Am I missing anything here?

What's a good way to run that new halyard up the mast? I have a 50' fish tape. Figured I'd insert into the new exit and push up to the sheave, where I could remove the sheave, if needed, to route properly. Then pull down a lightweight messenger line. The alternative, top down, I'm not envisioning a way to get the fish tape through the exit cutout. Maybe I could push a loop of a very long nylon ziptie through the exit hole and pull the end of the fishtape out. Maybe working with gravity rather than against would be smarter?

And thanks for pointing out the lack of simultaneous halyard usage. A jammer for the furler's sail. If flying a spinnaker, use staysail halyard for pole topping lift and spinnaker halyard as intended. Already have two horned cleats below winch for staysail and spinnaker. Having a pair of clam cleats above the winch will help with transferring halyards off the winch onto horned cleat under tension. Clam to horn cleat is like belt & suspenders.

Already have a ring mounted on the mast for inboard end of a pole, as well as a deck-mounted block for the spinnaker downhaul; can use the staysail sheet for that. I can look around for used spinnaker pole. What length should I be looking for with the H37C?

Purchases would be:
1) 109 feet of 11 mm Sampson XLS3 (from HunterOwner's recommendation)
2) A block to attach at the mast crane. Selden 406-001-01.
3) An exit plate. Existing ones appear to be Kenyon K-10960, and Rig Rite stocks. Nice to have them match.
4) Jammer for jib on furler. Defender has a Spinlock ZR. I have no experience with jammers, welcome advice.
5) Double clam cleat above winch. A pair of SeaDog CL201

Thoughts?

 

[Jim Legere]

If you are running a spinnaker halyard through a block on one of the two bails on the masthead crane, consider running both parts externally. I tried to rig a spinnaker halyard exiting from one of the masthead sheaves and onto the block on the bail and it did not work - did not run freely.

 

[Brazil]

Thanks for the heads up. I will check that during installation, and ensure free running. I wouldn't have been so careful on that issue without your input.

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

Re: secondary halyards -

As a professional sailboat rigger I ALWAYS specify secondary halyards on main, headsail and mizzen, on any boat that’s not too big to just paddle it back across the lake to the trailer after a picnic-ruining catastrophe. Right before rigging Diana I had a dream in which I was readying to tack at the Camden NJ bulkhead (lee shore) to head over towards Philadelphia and lost the main halyard. I woke up thinking, ‘Okay; it could happen; what would you do?’ Answer: throw the tack (even into irons if, under headsail alone, the boat won’t come round all the way); get out of immediate danger; hoist main on spare halyard; carry on. NP.

Now: how many cruising-boat sailors don’t have a spare halyard?

Many people think the spare main halyard is for a topping lift. Well; if it is, you don’t have a spare halyard. Then other boats have a ‘topping lift’ which is just a piece of wire Nicopressed to the backstay about two feet above the boom - which is about 95% perfectly useless (can’t get boom off to the side; can’t lift gear with boom; can’t add or decrease mainsail ‘baggy’; etc. - none of which is facilitated by a rigid vang either, BTW). Any serious cruising boat should have TWO proper main halyards PLUS a standing wire topping lift from the masthead with a block-and-tackle purchase enabling the boom to be lowered and lifted, as for (but not only for) lifting a dinghy or MOB aboard, and easily adjusted from the deck (meaning at forward end of boom).

The boat should also have TWO completely independent headsail halyards, whose utility will become PLAINLY obvious the first time you have to change headsails shorthanded in failing weather at sea while racing or cruising. Of course this presumes you have two grooves on the headstay foil, whether or not it’s on top of a furling drum; but, really, I cannot think of one reason why you should not have.

One value of the secondary main halyard, besides redundancy for safety, is in the ability to feed in the trysail on deck, close the track gate, lash it down (ideally under some kind of cover), and rig it with its separate halyard awaiting near-immediate deployment under any conditions that might rapidly deteriorate. If you have never thought of using a trysail, I’ll venture that you probably worry you don’t have the facilities (the halyard or the track) to do it. Once you do have, I’ll venture you’d use it often under appropriate circumstances.

On Diana (H25) I have two mainsail halyards, the aforementioned correct topping lift, two headsail halyards, an internal pole lift that can be used to fly an inner staysail (about a 2/3 foretriangle), and an outer, semi-swivelling spinnaker halyard (on a very cool custom masthead bracket that I made). I also have a trysail track, which, though on a small boat with two reef points in the main I might never need to use; but I put it on as a learning exercise since I am not sufficiently experienced in heaving-to.

The trysail track being on starboard rather requires that under potentially questionable conditions I have to remember to hoist the main on the port-side halyard - which brings up two more points:

1. For long-term or long-distance cruising, it is VITAL not only to have double halyards but to routinely cycle them, alternating with some regularity between one and the other. Where does the single main halyard break on an oceangoing cruising boat? - at the very apex of the halyard sheave at the masthead, in the brightest UV light, while it’s under tension with the sail up (and then the remnant of your single halyard falls down inside the mast - end of your day there). So, cycle the halyard often; and to facilitate inspection you can keep sail on by shifting to the other halyard.

(It’s even worse with roller-furling headsails, on which the sail never comes down often enough for the halyard to be inspected. And then on the cheap CDI Cruiser-Reefer system there isn’t even an option to take down the sail at all. How long does that little 5/16” line last in direct Southern sun?)

2. Also VITAL is to color-code the halyards to avoid crew confusion on deck. Professionally I specify green fleck for starboard sheaves and red fleck for port ones. Traditionally, mainsail halyards are belayed to starboard and headsail halyards to port. So on each side of the mast (easy to tell apart) you will have one red and one green (also easy to tell apart); and both forward and aft (still easy to tell apart) you will have red and green (you get my point). For Diana I have blue and red because I got a great deal on (blue) Yale ULS on a close out (a far better line than NER; almost better than Sampson XLS; and yet nearly no one carries it - go figure). But the philosophy is the same.

Again, as a professional, I have fought tooth-and-nail with rig makers and riggers over the need for double halyards. On the last two Cherubini 44s I won out and got double sheaves on the mizzen; but ‘the best sail on the boat’ is the inner staysail, most likely to be left up last of all on any cutter or ketch; and they put in only one halyard sheave for it. Sheesh.

Regarding hardware, Dwyer Aluminum Mast Co make VERY GOOD double-sheave masthead channels, for not very much cost, for boats up to about 35 ft. I heartily recommend you check them out and phone them with questions. If you are any good with a hacksaw, a ruler, and a drill, and maybe a pop-rivet gun, you can install this in an afternoon. For exit plates see Sea-Dog or Racelite, which is what I used. Mount them with the pop-rivets through little nylon washers under the stainless to keep it from corroding the aluminum. Then you get the fun of picking out new rope.

I know a lot of day sailors are going to take exception here. Please note that my expertise comes from rigging oceangoing sailing yachts of not-insignificant scale; and a little bit of overkill, in either rigging gear or philosophy, is far better for the day sailor than ‘underkill’ would be the other way round. So kindly take it in the spirit intended by an experienced educator.

 

[Brazil]

If you are running a spinnaker halyard through a block on one of the two bails on the masthead crane, consider running both parts externally. I tried to rig a spinnaker halyard exiting from one of the masthead sheaves and onto the block on the bail and it did not work - did not run freely.

The Cherubini Facebook site kindly sent a picture of the forward part of the masthead. I'm not seeing a good way to get from one of those sheaves, past the forestay attachment, to that mast crane bale, even if the halyard can slip upward over the clip.

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

Is there any significant advantage to rope clutches over jam cleats for this halyard application? Rope clutch "locks" the halyard......would not use a jam cleat for this application. You might find this article helpful:

My general rule (maybe for only myself) is that halyard stoppers aka rope clutches are best for things that don’t get released and re-cleated too often, like halyards. In my sound-reinforcement days we called this ‘set it and forget it’.

Jam cleats (typically synonymous with Sea-Dog Clamcleat product) are better for stuff that gets released and re-cleated a lot. The best trick is to extend the line close over and a little into the cleat, then bang the standing part (hard) with the heel of your hand to press it in. Given enough insertion into the clear, the cleat is designed to draw the line down, farther in and tighter. But often the only way out is to release some tension - or pull harder on the winch. So these will eventually consume the line.

REAL jam cleats are straightforward horn cleats, typically of the spar-cleat profile, with one end having a tight wedge that lets you pinch the line in to snub it as you tie in your half-hitches. These are best for when you trust only an actual knot. Spar cleats are similar but without the wedge because they expect the line will get jammed in between the cleat horn and the mast itself. So both these types have to be carefully sized to the cordage.

Cam cleats are most ideal for things that have to be drawn in fast and hard, often through the cleat jaws, and then released immediately with no fuss, like dinghy sheet lines. My brother installed a cam cleat for the forestay on his landsailer (wheeled iceboat) and I vividly recall the day it disintegrated at 25-30 mph on a parking lot, spewing little springs and bits everywhere - and then the mast and sail came down, as though in slow motion… right under the wheel, which pretty much ended the day (and season). Do not trust these things for anything you can’t immediately lay a hand on.

On Diana I have:

• Jam cleats - jibsheets; pole-lift/halyard; topping lift on boom; outhaul on boom
• Clamcleats - traveler control lines; spinnaker halyard on mast; single-line reef line on cabin top (for these I prefer the anodized aluminum ones over the black plastic; but this is a small boat)
• Cam cleat - mainsail sheet; backstay adjuster on coaming
• Halyard stoppers - mainsail halyards; primary jib halyard on cabin top; secondary jib halyard on mast (for these I bought up all the 1970s-1980s Schaefer stainless-steel halyard stoppers I could find. I still have some if you’re interested. I actually called Schaefer out at the boat show for discontinuing them. They’re great - especially considering the age of the design)

Some of this stuff has photos on the boat blog.