I am contemplating replacement of the two marine batteries on my H33.5 I bought the boat 21/2 years ago; the prvious owner had installed wet celled "maintenance free" sealed marine batteries from an auto parts chain. Both batteries presently require replacement. This is my delemma. I absolutely require a sealed battery that will no emit acid vapors or hydrogen because the batteries are beneath the aft quarter berth in an unvented compartment. I investigated to sealed/gel electrolyte battereies that are appealing; however, the disadvantage is the cost at $150 each. I have located wet celled batteries that are sealed (maintenance free)at a cost of $70 each; these are the types of batteries that are presently installed. Does anyone have any experience with these batteries? Is there a substantial difference in the batteries that would justify over twice the cost? The boat is primarily used for day sails and overnight trips. A Newmar charger keeps the batteries charged dockside. Any advice is appreciated.
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Maintenance-Free opinion
On my 35 I've got a mix of wet cell (four golf-carts) with battery caps and one group 27 wet cell "maintenance-free" "deep cycle" for the start battery. The golf carts have been really great (cost $59 ea in a set of four) and are now 5 years old. It is very easy to add water. On the otherhand, the maintenance free one I have concerns because our charger is a Heart Freedom 10 and puts out 50 amps at 12 v. Because of the sealed start battery I have concerns about gassing and pressure inside the battery; however, no problems to date. When it dies I plan to replace it with a automotive battery with battery caps. The golf carts are in plastic battery boxes, unvented (venting is on the to-do list). The battery boxes are in a melamine faced plywood cabinet under the aft berth so it is separated from the OEM selector switch; separated but not "gas free" or "explosion proof", hence the need to provide battery box positive ventilation. The engine, through the air intake, sucks air into the engine room and hence into the battery compartment when it is running so there is some ventillation, however, not to code. It's a real delima. I installed a second switch, the new master, on the engine compartment bulkhead and away from the batteries. Like you, we day sail and I just can't see using gel due to their high cost. When I get the battery boxes properly vented this will make the whole installation proper according to code.
On my 35 I've got a mix of wet cell (four golf-carts) with battery caps and one group 27 wet cell "maintenance-free" "deep cycle" for the start battery. The golf carts have been really great (cost $59 ea in a set of four) and are now 5 years old. It is very easy to add water. On the otherhand, the maintenance free one I have concerns because our charger is a Heart Freedom 10 and puts out 50 amps at 12 v. Because of the sealed start battery I have concerns about gassing and pressure inside the battery; however, no problems to date. When it dies I plan to replace it with a automotive battery with battery caps. The golf carts are in plastic battery boxes, unvented (venting is on the to-do list). The battery boxes are in a melamine faced plywood cabinet under the aft berth so it is separated from the OEM selector switch; separated but not "gas free" or "explosion proof", hence the need to provide battery box positive ventilation. The engine, through the air intake, sucks air into the engine room and hence into the battery compartment when it is running so there is some ventillation, however, not to code. It's a real delima. I installed a second switch, the new master, on the engine compartment bulkhead and away from the batteries. Like you, we day sail and I just can't see using gel due to their high cost. When I get the battery boxes properly vented this will make the whole installation proper according to code.
Sealed is not gas proof
The wet "Sealed" type battery (maintenance free you buy in the auto parts stores) is not totally sealed. They will vent if sufficient pressure is built up internally. One of my Delco Sealed batteries eventually had enough material shed from the plates to accumulate in the bottom of the cell thereby shorting the cell out. The charger sensed the lower voltage and kept trying to charge the battery. The battery overheated and built up enough pressure to vent the gases. These gases are corrosive and dangerous. I was lucky I caught it before I left the boat for the week or else I am sure I would have had a battery meld down and possible explosion (good reason to have battery boxes). This was not a defective battery (it was over 6 years old and its twin is still in my boat operating). It is just part of the design of any wet cell battery (including maintenance free ones). I am looking into Absorption Glass Mat (AGM) batteries through the DC Battery warehouse (http://www.dcbattery.com/). Yes these are expensive but I believe will provide me with sufficient power at a safer level during operation.
The wet "Sealed" type battery (maintenance free you buy in the auto parts stores) is not totally sealed. They will vent if sufficient pressure is built up internally. One of my Delco Sealed batteries eventually had enough material shed from the plates to accumulate in the bottom of the cell thereby shorting the cell out. The charger sensed the lower voltage and kept trying to charge the battery. The battery overheated and built up enough pressure to vent the gases. These gases are corrosive and dangerous. I was lucky I caught it before I left the boat for the week or else I am sure I would have had a battery meld down and possible explosion (good reason to have battery boxes). This was not a defective battery (it was over 6 years old and its twin is still in my boat operating). It is just part of the design of any wet cell battery (including maintenance free ones). I am looking into Absorption Glass Mat (AGM) batteries through the DC Battery warehouse (http://www.dcbattery.com/). Yes these are expensive but I believe will provide me with sufficient power at a safer level during operation.
Delco Voyagers
I've been using Delco Voyager sealed batteries for many many years and never had a problem (they just keep on going!). I recall the group 27 costing about $60 from K-Mart. I Highly recommend them .....
I've been using Delco Voyager sealed batteries for many many years and never had a problem (they just keep on going!). I recall the group 27 costing about $60 from K-Mart. I Highly recommend them .....
Sealed Wet-Cell
Had 2 G27 wet cell sealed batteries for the house bank when we brought the boat (won't mention the brand but others have). As they were on the boat when we purchased I have no idea how old they were. Being 'maintenance free' I never gave them a second thought, after the initial inspection. Over time I noticed that the lights were getting dimmer early at night. Couldn't be using that much capacity up at anchorage I thought. On returning to the dock I check them out (difficult to get to in the bottom of the starboard laz.) and found one had started to melt down. Luckily they were in battery boxes so no spillage occured. I yanked them both and replaced with regular wet-cell batteries. I would rather spend the time checking them on a regular basis than deal with the uncertianty. For your situation if you want to go with sealed then spend the extra money and get the real thing - not the semi-sealed type. Another tip is to get the battery designed for what your intended use is. There is a difference in construction of the 'deep cycle' versus the 'deep cycle / marine starting' batteries. Lots of info on the web, just do a search on marine batteries. Scott 83-H34 Island Hops PS. If you switch to gells from wets then don't forget to change your charger settings.
Had 2 G27 wet cell sealed batteries for the house bank when we brought the boat (won't mention the brand but others have). As they were on the boat when we purchased I have no idea how old they were. Being 'maintenance free' I never gave them a second thought, after the initial inspection. Over time I noticed that the lights were getting dimmer early at night. Couldn't be using that much capacity up at anchorage I thought. On returning to the dock I check them out (difficult to get to in the bottom of the starboard laz.) and found one had started to melt down. Luckily they were in battery boxes so no spillage occured. I yanked them both and replaced with regular wet-cell batteries. I would rather spend the time checking them on a regular basis than deal with the uncertianty. For your situation if you want to go with sealed then spend the extra money and get the real thing - not the semi-sealed type. Another tip is to get the battery designed for what your intended use is. There is a difference in construction of the 'deep cycle' versus the 'deep cycle / marine starting' batteries. Lots of info on the web, just do a search on marine batteries. Scott 83-H34 Island Hops PS. If you switch to gells from wets then don't forget to change your charger settings.
Why are so many batteries in cabin?
A question to all out there. This post is talking about needing to "vent" battery gasses. Then why are many batteries mounted under a setee or an aft locker which would obviously cause the gasses to accumulate into the enclosed cabin??? Are we all in danger of blowing ourselves up?? Roc
A question to all out there. This post is talking about needing to "vent" battery gasses. Then why are many batteries mounted under a setee or an aft locker which would obviously cause the gasses to accumulate into the enclosed cabin??? Are we all in danger of blowing ourselves up?? Roc
Chapmans
I recently was venturing through one of the newer Chapman edtions. This book is incredible. Anyone who owns a boat with batteries, let alone anyone having thoughts of replacing their battery bank, needs to read this article. Briefly, it explains the differences between the thiner plate cranking amps batteries and the thicker plate ones. The wet and the gels. Certain batteries top off at different voltages which can cause others to charge short of full. This can cause premature death to batteries. Today there are smart chargers that are not fooled by one mismatched battery being topped off. It knows when to charge the others to full capacities. I hope that you all seek out this article. It is everything you wanted to know about batteries. ( except the stuff you learn on the HOW, of course!) I need to find a smart charger for my emotional batteries after a day at the office. Anyone have any info on this subject?
Good luck, Mike D. Media, PA S/V Serenity H376
I recently was venturing through one of the newer Chapman edtions. This book is incredible. Anyone who owns a boat with batteries, let alone anyone having thoughts of replacing their battery bank, needs to read this article. Briefly, it explains the differences between the thiner plate cranking amps batteries and the thicker plate ones. The wet and the gels. Certain batteries top off at different voltages which can cause others to charge short of full. This can cause premature death to batteries. Today there are smart chargers that are not fooled by one mismatched battery being topped off. It knows when to charge the others to full capacities. I hope that you all seek out this article. It is everything you wanted to know about batteries. ( except the stuff you learn on the HOW, of course!) I need to find a smart charger for my emotional batteries after a day at the office. Anyone have any info on this subject?
Good luck, Mike D. Media, PA S/V Serenity H376get a charge outs this
AGM battereies are possibly the best answer to "sealed Batteries" Optima in Sweden makes them for various companies in the US ie. Interstate, they are like Rolls batts and are less expensive with a seven year replacement guarantee, about 140$ it's worth the money.they can be mounted upside down sideways etc. they are so clean that terminals need no maintaince, never corrode. You can shoot through the casing with a high powered rifle and they won't leak. They accept hot charges and are ultra pure lead with very heavy cell jumpers, the electrolyte is contained in fiberglass cloth coiled with large lead plates. They come in a red top (cranking) (yellow) deep cycle RV and blue (marine), they do all this and they look good too (very high tech)! They do have a pop out seal to prevent any possibilty of an explosion due to over charging, but folks I've talked too have never had to replace a seal. I've had one in my car (mostly for show) and we use them on the HC50, 7 of them. I can't say enough about them. try www.optima.com JB
AGM battereies are possibly the best answer to "sealed Batteries" Optima in Sweden makes them for various companies in the US ie. Interstate, they are like Rolls batts and are less expensive with a seven year replacement guarantee, about 140$ it's worth the money.they can be mounted upside down sideways etc. they are so clean that terminals need no maintaince, never corrode. You can shoot through the casing with a high powered rifle and they won't leak. They accept hot charges and are ultra pure lead with very heavy cell jumpers, the electrolyte is contained in fiberglass cloth coiled with large lead plates. They come in a red top (cranking) (yellow) deep cycle RV and blue (marine), they do all this and they look good too (very high tech)! They do have a pop out seal to prevent any possibilty of an explosion due to over charging, but folks I've talked too have never had to replace a seal. I've had one in my car (mostly for show) and we use them on the HC50, 7 of them. I can't say enough about them. try www.optima.com JB
Jim Bohart - Optima URL
Could you please check the Optima battery URL? When I tried it I got an investment company and they didn't seem to be connected in any way to batteries: A FULL RANGE OF INVESTMENT VEHICLES Optima offers investors with a minimum investment of $250,000, the opportunity to invest in a wide range of proprietary non-traditional investment vehicles structured either as multi-advisor or single-advisor funds. etc.
Could you please check the Optima battery URL? When I tried it I got an investment company and they didn't seem to be connected in any way to batteries: A FULL RANGE OF INVESTMENT VEHICLES Optima offers investors with a minimum investment of $250,000, the opportunity to invest in a wide range of proprietary non-traditional investment vehicles structured either as multi-advisor or single-advisor funds. etc.
Re Batteries in Cabin and Optima
Good question R. Palaia re batteries in the cabin. All lead acid battery types during charging will create gases (components of water, Hydrogen and Oxygen, which is why you end up needing to add water to batteries). Some batteries are "sealed" (to a point). They use a catalyst to help recombine the Hydrogen and Oxygen back into water minimizing water loss and gas venting. Some (AGM) are sealed better than others ("maintenance free" types). Boat builders put batteries where they can. If you have flooded batteries, it nice to have easy access to check and fill them but it would also be nice to have 360-degree access to the engine too! Nice, but hard to do in any boat. On the original '83 Hunter 34's (very early models) two batteries were place in the aft cabin locker on the port side under a sink that was there. In later models they removed the sink (it was only 5 ft from the galley sink!) The batteries were move into the Starboard locker with cockpit access (originally this was called a "sail locker"). 120 lbs. from port side to Starboard and you get the start of the H34 list to Starboard (especially when you add some more batteries!) It was so much fun diving headfirst into the locker to check the batteries that I cut an access panel between the locker and the aft cabin to provide better access. It also provided a secondary escape route from the aft cabin though a poor one. I find it interesting that Jim is using only Optima batteries and not Lifeline. Any reason why Jim? Seven Optima batteries provide 455 Amp-Hours of capacity, weigh 304.5 lbs. and cost $980. Four Group 31 Lifeline batteries would provide 420 AH, weigh 276lbs and cost about $720. If you could fit (or move) two 4D or 8D Lifeline, it would be an even better cost/weight/AH ratio. I would plunk out the bucks for some AGM batteries right now but I need to upgrade my alternator and its regulator (another $600-700) before I do so as not to kill any new battery with improper charging. I already upgraded to a smart charger this year. Now if that old 6 year old Delco lasts one more year...
Good question R. Palaia re batteries in the cabin. All lead acid battery types during charging will create gases (components of water, Hydrogen and Oxygen, which is why you end up needing to add water to batteries). Some batteries are "sealed" (to a point). They use a catalyst to help recombine the Hydrogen and Oxygen back into water minimizing water loss and gas venting. Some (AGM) are sealed better than others ("maintenance free" types). Boat builders put batteries where they can. If you have flooded batteries, it nice to have easy access to check and fill them but it would also be nice to have 360-degree access to the engine too! Nice, but hard to do in any boat. On the original '83 Hunter 34's (very early models) two batteries were place in the aft cabin locker on the port side under a sink that was there. In later models they removed the sink (it was only 5 ft from the galley sink!) The batteries were move into the Starboard locker with cockpit access (originally this was called a "sail locker"). 120 lbs. from port side to Starboard and you get the start of the H34 list to Starboard (especially when you add some more batteries!) It was so much fun diving headfirst into the locker to check the batteries that I cut an access panel between the locker and the aft cabin to provide better access. It also provided a secondary escape route from the aft cabin though a poor one. I find it interesting that Jim is using only Optima batteries and not Lifeline. Any reason why Jim? Seven Optima batteries provide 455 Amp-Hours of capacity, weigh 304.5 lbs. and cost $980. Four Group 31 Lifeline batteries would provide 420 AH, weigh 276lbs and cost about $720. If you could fit (or move) two 4D or 8D Lifeline, it would be an even better cost/weight/AH ratio. I would plunk out the bucks for some AGM batteries right now but I need to upgrade my alternator and its regulator (another $600-700) before I do so as not to kill any new battery with improper charging. I already upgraded to a smart charger this year. Now if that old 6 year old Delco lasts one more year...
Venting
I would suggest finding a way to vent that compartment if possible, or, if not, to consider relocating the batteries. There are NO batteries, including the AGM type, that do not emit fumes. If you do decide to go with venting, be sure to use a fan that is certified for use in a flammable environment. Some engine room blower units are built like this. Additionally, most batteries will not outgas to any significant extent unless they are being rapidly charged. A simple passive vent may solve your problem. MC
I would suggest finding a way to vent that compartment if possible, or, if not, to consider relocating the batteries. There are NO batteries, including the AGM type, that do not emit fumes. If you do decide to go with venting, be sure to use a fan that is certified for use in a flammable environment. Some engine room blower units are built like this. Additionally, most batteries will not outgas to any significant extent unless they are being rapidly charged. A simple passive vent may solve your problem. MC
New URL found
I couldn't get to optima batteries either...but did find the batteries at this site www.dcbattery.com follow the links to marine batteries and the optima series. Mark Johnson
I couldn't get to optima batteries either...but did find the batteries at this site www.dcbattery.com follow the links to marine batteries and the optima series. Mark Johnson
Lifelines
I must have the perfect job. As part of Y2K prep here at work, I had to design and build battery operated equipment. Being the good boater that I am, it figured it was the best chance I would ever have to try out batteries and inverters. In the end I selected Lifeline AGM, 8D's ( I bought 8 of 'em! ) and Heart freedom 1000 inverters. The AGM's are indeed completely sealed, weigh about 85 lbs each, and are really good at deep cycling. The load on them is about 800 watts, and they will operate at least 25 hours. I will buy them for my boat now. The inverter works very well, has an excellent charging circuit, including an "echo" charge for starting batteries. I am running all electronic equipment, and have experienced no problems. Battery specialists, Miami Florida was the supplier. they have a website, and carry the major brands. The price was about $300-$ 400 per battery
I must have the perfect job. As part of Y2K prep here at work, I had to design and build battery operated equipment. Being the good boater that I am, it figured it was the best chance I would ever have to try out batteries and inverters. In the end I selected Lifeline AGM, 8D's ( I bought 8 of 'em! ) and Heart freedom 1000 inverters. The AGM's are indeed completely sealed, weigh about 85 lbs each, and are really good at deep cycling. The load on them is about 800 watts, and they will operate at least 25 hours. I will buy them for my boat now. The inverter works very well, has an excellent charging circuit, including an "echo" charge for starting batteries. I am running all electronic equipment, and have experienced no problems. Battery specialists, Miami Florida was the supplier. they have a website, and carry the major brands. The price was about $300-$ 400 per battery
Agree on Lifelines
After a lot of research, I just replaced the original batteries (after 2.5 years) with Lifeline AGM. I agree with the last posting.
After a lot of research, I just replaced the original batteries (after 2.5 years) with Lifeline AGM. I agree with the last posting.
I can afford it and like the red top!
Don't know what the warranty is on a Lifeline but like all good cosumers was sold on the battery in my car even if it cost more than the lifeline, 7 years replacment is exceptional. I didn't know I had a choice. The system in the HC50 was alot less than what I payed for mine because well they want Hunter to buy a lot in the future. Still AGM batteries are the way to go. JB
Don't know what the warranty is on a Lifeline but like all good cosumers was sold on the battery in my car even if it cost more than the lifeline, 7 years replacment is exceptional. I didn't know I had a choice. The system in the HC50 was alot less than what I payed for mine because well they want Hunter to buy a lot in the future. Still AGM batteries are the way to go. JB
Will we ever have these?
I recently replaced the battery in my cell phone and converted from an NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride)to a Lithium Ion (Li) type unit, mainly because the NiMH battery was so troublesome in regard to charging - it needs to be fully discharged prior to recharging, or it develops a "memory" syndrome wherein it becomes impossible to fully charge or discharge it. There are chargers that do this, but I usually recharge via a cigarette light cord in my car, hence the change to the Li battery, which doesn't have this problem and is also about 3 times the initial cost. The Li battery also delivers a very flat voltage curve, with a voltage drop occurring only after it is nearly fully discharged. All things being equal, I think it was a good investment, even though it cost $ 90.00 for a 750 Milliamp unit. It has been completely trouble-free. I wonder if it will ever be economically feasible to build (and purchase) these units for our boats, or, even better, for electric cars? They are now being used in some high end laptop computers with good results. On my boat, I am still using flooded batteries (4 Trojan 6 volt 125 Ah) for the house bank, and gels for the engine starting, genset starting, and anchor windlass applications. While these batteries all do their jobs very well, my setup necessitates a nearly custom built charger with two outputs, and of course I need to keep on eye on the fluid levels in the flooded units. I am looking forward to the day when Li batteries or an even more advanced unit becomes available... MC
I recently replaced the battery in my cell phone and converted from an NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride)to a Lithium Ion (Li) type unit, mainly because the NiMH battery was so troublesome in regard to charging - it needs to be fully discharged prior to recharging, or it develops a "memory" syndrome wherein it becomes impossible to fully charge or discharge it. There are chargers that do this, but I usually recharge via a cigarette light cord in my car, hence the change to the Li battery, which doesn't have this problem and is also about 3 times the initial cost. The Li battery also delivers a very flat voltage curve, with a voltage drop occurring only after it is nearly fully discharged. All things being equal, I think it was a good investment, even though it cost $ 90.00 for a 750 Milliamp unit. It has been completely trouble-free. I wonder if it will ever be economically feasible to build (and purchase) these units for our boats, or, even better, for electric cars? They are now being used in some high end laptop computers with good results. On my boat, I am still using flooded batteries (4 Trojan 6 volt 125 Ah) for the house bank, and gels for the engine starting, genset starting, and anchor windlass applications. While these batteries all do their jobs very well, my setup necessitates a nearly custom built charger with two outputs, and of course I need to keep on eye on the fluid levels in the flooded units. I am looking forward to the day when Li batteries or an even more advanced unit becomes available... MC
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