Saturated rudder

May 9, 2020
27
Merit 25 Lighthouse Landing
1982 Merit 25 rudder is saturated due to a very difficult-to-seal joint where the stainless steel rudder shaft (tube) enters the top of the restored and finished wood-core (Balsa?) rudder body that was re-fiberglassed 5 years ago at a body shop that services many boats. This is the first haul-out, and trailer to home since I launched her 5 years ago, and she has been a great day sailer and racer, and has been kept at Lighthouse Landing (marina) on Kentucky Lake. Any tips on how to seal the stainless tube where it enters the top of the rudder would be greatly appreciated.
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,771
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Pictures would help a lot.
Jim...

PS: Double posting the same question does not help.
 

dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,209
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
To seal the rudder shaft's entrance into the rudder, chisel/grind out the fiberglass around the opening to create a bevel, fill the bevel with 5200. Here's a cross-section view of the bevel (black is the rudder shaft, red the rudder):
rudder_bevel.png
 
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dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,209
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Another source of water entrance into the rudder is through the top of the shaft (assuming it is a tube) - if not already done, you can seal the top with spray foam from a can.
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,121
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Your rudder interior is very likely hi-density foam. The SS post should have some sort of internal grid sometimes known in the trade as the "rakes" that either key into cross-drilled holes in the post or are welded to it.
You may have to take the rudder home and drill some drain holes in it, or also separate the two halves and replace (or totally dry out) the foam and them glass it back together.
The M-25 is still a popular one design racer and overnighter. Active fleet in my area.
There may be an owners' group on line.

How is your fore deck? Hope it's not springy and soft from moisture intrusion.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,446
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
As FastOlson said, the internal grid structure is either drilled or more likely welded to the rudder post.

Drying and sealing it does absolutely nothing to repair any corrosion resulting from moisture at the joints/welds thereby affecting the structure and integrity of the rudder.
it is essential in this situation that the rudder be open up and inspected. Not doing so can result in an unwanted surprise often at the worst time.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,983
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
To seal the rudder shaft's entrance into the rudder, chisel/grind out the fiberglass around the opening to create a bevel, fill the bevel with 5200. Here's a cross-section view of the bevel (black is the rudder shaft, red the rudder):
View attachment 199791
This is correct, except for using 5200. The sealant needs to be flexible to accommodate the differential rates of expansion between the fiberglass and the SS rudder post. 5200 is an adhesive and is not flexible enough. 4200 or LifeCaulk (polysulfide) is a better choice. Both of these are quite flexible with good adhesion. Something like Silicone or 3000 will be very flexible, but will not have sufficient adhesion and may pull away from the post or the rudder.
 

dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,209
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
This is correct, except for using 5200. The sealant needs to be flexible to accommodate the differential rates of expansion between the fiberglass and the SS rudder post. 5200 is an adhesive and is not flexible enough. 4200 or LifeCaulk (polysulfide) is a better choice. Both of these are quite flexible with good adhesion. Something like Silicone or 3000 will be very flexible, but will not have sufficient adhesion and may pull away from the post or the rudder.
Worked fine for me. Description of 5200 from the 3M site:
This high-performance polyurethane adhesive sealant becomes tack-free in 24-48 hours, and completely cures in 5-7 days with no shrinking. The seal is extremely strong, retaining its strength above or below the waterline. Stays flexible–allows for structural movement. Stress caused by shock, vibration, swelling or shrinking is effectively absorbed. Has excellent resistance to weathering and salt water.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,983
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Worked fine for me. Description of 5200 from the 3M site:
This high-performance polyurethane adhesive sealant becomes tack-free in 24-48 hours, and completely cures in 5-7 days with no shrinking. The seal is extremely strong, retaining its strength above or below the waterline. Stays flexible–allows for structural movement. Stress caused by shock, vibration, swelling or shrinking is effectively absorbed. Has excellent resistance to weathering and salt water.
I'm glad it worked for you. When I made a similar repair on my rudder I considered the rather extreme temperature swings, as much as 100°+ F, from -20 to 90+. A sealant that was more flexible seemed to be more appropriate. My concern about using 5200 in this application would be the stress on the fiberglass in the extreme conditions with an adhesive as strong as 5200. In a milder climate, this would be less of an issue.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,600
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
As FastOlson said, the internal grid structure is either drilled or more likely welded to the rudder post. Drying and sealing it does absolutely nothing to repair any corrosion resulting from moisture at the joints/welds thereby affecting the structure and integrity of the rudder. it is essential in this situation that the rudder be open up and inspected. Not doing so can result in an unwanted surprise often at the worst time.
To your point ... has anyone lost a rudder? We did on a Tartan 33 due to this exact reason. It snapped off clean about 3 inches below the waterline. What ensued was a bit comical, a bit scary and may have created cardiac symptoms for me. When I read these posts about optimistic projections for drying a wet rudder, or just sealing it up, I think back to the wild jibing off Block Island during an Off Soundings regatta during which I was trimming and easing the jib so much that I became exhausted due to the Beta Blockers I was taking. So I'm just saying these wet rudders are not OK. And, you are not drying them with a few holes drilled in the bottom every winter.
 
May 9, 2020
27
Merit 25 Lighthouse Landing
WOW! All great comments! I will double check with the resident repair "Wizard" at my marina. He's in and out throughout the year, but I know that he's up there pretty regular this week winterizing the out-of-towners' tubs.

Thanks for all the input!

Sail On!
"Aarrrgh!"
 
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Apr 26, 2015
663
S2 26 Mid On Trailer
Amazing where things go when no one reads "wood" core (balsa?) So @Aarrgh! is it wood core or foam? The inner workings are completely different. I've built both types and never had an internal grid in a wood core rudder. Folks are we reading what is written, or just jumping to conclusion due to our own experiences. @Aarrrgh! be careful of "Wizards".
 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,446
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Amazing where things go when no one reads "wood" core (balsa?) So @Aarrgh! is it wood core or foam? The inner workings are completely different. I've built both types and never had an internal grid in a wood core rudder. Folks are we reading what is written, or just jumping to conclusion due to our own experiences. @Aarrrgh! be careful of "Wizards".
I think we all read that, however, regardless of wood or anything else, the same caution applies. Likely more so with a wood core subject to (read -saturated) moisture.

Also, wood core rudders are rare but can have a grid structure support. Essential to check given the OP indicates he is unsure.
 
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May 9, 2020
27
Merit 25 Lighthouse Landing
Before I first bought this boat, the first thing that I noticed was that the rudder skin had blisters that my sailing buddies said I would definitely need to have restored. I took it to a body shop that does extensive work on boats, including sailboats. It took them a few weeks of cautious heat and forced air to dry it out, then fortified the skin.

I, being a painter by trade, applied several coats of Interlux epoxy primer to top off the repair. when I hauled her out a few months ago, the blisters had returned, and the only apparent point of water entering the core was where the tube enters the top of the rudder. The primer had released from the stainless tube, and it was obvious to me that this was the initial point of failure.

Below, is what a semi-retired lifelong "Mr. Gadget", who finds his shop his "happy place" during the winter, with sailing KY Lake his "happy place during the summer:

The first thing I did after removing the rudder was to stand it on its tube, upside down, and water began to drain from that point, and run down the tube onto the floor. I then stood it upside down on a board, and secured it to a post where the rudder would face South. The hot sun would heat it up in the daytime creating pressure inside, and the water drained would increase. The cool night temperatures would create negative pressure, allowing for the heat of the sun to daily pressurize the interior, and continue the draining.

Unless you guys have better ideas, or cautions, I will now drill a hole in the rudder bottom surface, insert a compressed air fitting, and begin to apply gentle air pressure from a small "pancake" compressor which has an inline moisture separator, and a pressure regulator. I will adjust the pressure carefully, and begin to circulate dry air through the rudder and that air will exhaust from the tube into a catch pan on the floor. I will also carefully place a heat lamp that will aid the process of pushing wet air down through the tube. I will monitor the water level in the catch pan, which will be covered, reducing evaporation.

Before I begin all of that, I will weigh the rudder, and monitor how the weight decreases to the point where the weight does not change over a month's time.

In the meantime, I will revisit the body shop to find out what material was the core, and update you guys. Maybe when I drill that hole in the bottom of the rudder, I will be able to determine what is the core material. Do any of the photos of the dried white residue give a hint to the core material?

Any responses will be greatly appreciated.

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Sep 25, 2008
7,446
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Even if you dry it out throughly, you are still left with either a rusted and rusting internal structure if it's foam or rotted and therefore decayed wood core if it's actually wood.
 

dmax

.
Jul 29, 2018
1,209
Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
After letting it drain, rather than applying air pressure, it would better to apply a vaccum - seal up any extra holes (can use butyl to temproarily seal them) and pull from one or more holes. If you can put the rudder under 30 Hg of vacuum, any water will "boil" at 70 degress F and be removed as vapor. But as Don said, this doesn't do anything to fix any rot or corrosion - you might want to cut an inspection port in the rudder to actually see what's going on.
 
May 9, 2020
27
Merit 25 Lighthouse Landing
Another source of water entrance into the rudder is through the top of the shaft (assuming it is a tube) - if not already done, you can seal the top with spray foam from a can.

It was sealed with what appears to be silicone or urethane caulk, which I had to drill a hole into, to add to the drainage that was coming from around the rudder / tube entry.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,983
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
No need to guess at the core material or its condition. Drill a ¼" hole through the skin and into the core. The tailings will tell you what's in there and give a clue as to condition. Black mushy stuff is rotted wood. Tan powder probably foam. Sawdust, is obvious.

The hole can be filled with some thickened epoxy.
 
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