Actually- I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet. I had spoken to Mike Inmon a couple years ago, and he had mentioned wanting to sell his modified D to get the Newport 23. I saw a post saying he found a good one. What I want to know is: How does it sail compared to your D? Anyone else with experience feel free to chime in. Thanks!
Sailing Performance of the Venture Newport 23
- Thread starter Lost Horizon
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I purchased a Venture Newport 23 when the first model was made back in 73. I was looking for a trailerable boat to use on a fresh water lake. The boat was drop dead gorgeous at the time with red hull, & colored jibs. I remember that it had the pop-top cabin roof, which helped a lot. Frankly I wasn't trilled with the quality of the rigging. It was like most Ventures - cheap.
As far as sailing characteristics the boat was very tender in moderate winds and almost unsailable in strong winds. It had a terrible weather helm requiring the rudder to be positioned so far to the opposite position that it created terrible drag and slowed the boat.
Venture also used oak instead of teak for the bowsprit and the railing around the cockpit. You cannot keep varnish on oak in an outside environment. Once again this was Venture's cheap way of building a boat.
I was so disappointed in the Newport that I only kept it a couple years and sold it. If you're looking for a nice day-sailor and can pick one up for a good price it's still a good looking boat. But, I'd look for something with a better reputation and better built.
As far as sailing characteristics the boat was very tender in moderate winds and almost unsailable in strong winds. It had a terrible weather helm requiring the rudder to be positioned so far to the opposite position that it created terrible drag and slowed the boat.
Venture also used oak instead of teak for the bowsprit and the railing around the cockpit. You cannot keep varnish on oak in an outside environment. Once again this was Venture's cheap way of building a boat.
I was so disappointed in the Newport that I only kept it a couple years and sold it. If you're looking for a nice day-sailor and can pick one up for a good price it's still a good looking boat. But, I'd look for something with a better reputation and better built.
Here's an interesting web site for the Newport 23. Lots of information and some pictures. As much as I disliked my Newport 23, I still have a warm spot for the boat because it was so good looking. If Venture had just included a little more quality in the construction and rigging they would have hit a home-run with this boat.
http://trusting-1.com/
http://trusting-1.com/
Interesting post. I once saw an article on the Newport 23 with a picture of the boat under sail in what appeared to be fairly calm conditions. I couldn't understand why the boat was heeling so much with the helm hard over.
Some contributing factors to what you say about the V23 leaning so far in a breeze could be the boat's beam and chines. Comparing to the V222, the V23 has a beam that is 2 inches narrower. Also, from what I can tell in pictures, the V23 has a more rounded chine that the V222 (or 25, for that matter) does. I can see how a relatively narrow hull with round chines would be prone to heeling like that.
What surprises me is that it heels like that with a 600-lb keel under it. That's 100 lbs heavier than the 7-inch shorter and equally-weighing V222, and still 25 lbs heavier than the larger V24. MacGregor put 600/625 lb keels on the 25' Venture/MacGregor models. This makes me wonder if MacGregor used the heavier keel for the 23 because it was necessary to counter-balance an otherwise easily-rolling hull.
In terms of the quality of parts...yeah...I have heard many times that Venture/MacGregor was not known for using the highest quality materials in all of their construction. But considering the ideology of the time (building a really affordable, trailerable sailboat for a then-competitive market), I'm not surprised that they cut corners on materials. For a limited production model, though (brochure says they were only made during the Fall months of each year), you'd think that a little bit of extra quality would be built (and understandbly priced) into it.
On the plus side, if you find a "good" Venture nowadays (years and years after production), odds are that you will find one that has seen some or all of the low-quality hardware with good-quality stuff by a previous owner.
What surprises me is that it heels like that with a 600-lb keel under it. That's 100 lbs heavier than the 7-inch shorter and equally-weighing V222, and still 25 lbs heavier than the larger V24. MacGregor put 600/625 lb keels on the 25' Venture/MacGregor models. This makes me wonder if MacGregor used the heavier keel for the 23 because it was necessary to counter-balance an otherwise easily-rolling hull.
In terms of the quality of parts...yeah...I have heard many times that Venture/MacGregor was not known for using the highest quality materials in all of their construction. But considering the ideology of the time (building a really affordable, trailerable sailboat for a then-competitive market), I'm not surprised that they cut corners on materials. For a limited production model, though (brochure says they were only made during the Fall months of each year), you'd think that a little bit of extra quality would be built (and understandbly priced) into it.
On the plus side, if you find a "good" Venture nowadays (years and years after production), odds are that you will find one that has seen some or all of the low-quality hardware with good-quality stuff by a previous owner.
"As far as sailing characteristics the boat was very tender in moderate winds and almost unsailable in strong winds. It had a terrible weather helm requiring the rudder to be positioned so far to the opposite position that it created terrible drag and slowed the boat."
Sounds like excessive mast rake to me.
As far as I know no mac has been demasted because of light rigging, I guess if you were to carry way to much sail for the conditions the rig might be to light.
Sounds like excessive mast rake to me.
As far as I know no mac has been demasted because of light rigging, I guess if you were to carry way to much sail for the conditions the rig might be to light.
More mast rake = more weather helm.
or maybe just the way the sails were trimed
or maybe the keel was not in the proper position
I have not heard or read of that problem.
To have to steer the boat hard over just to keep it from rounding up means a boat way out of trim.
or maybe just the way the sails were trimed
or maybe the keel was not in the proper position
I have not heard or read of that problem.
To have to steer the boat hard over just to keep it from rounding up means a boat way out of trim.
"Weather Helm" is an interesting phenomena on a sailboat. I cannot disagree with anything posted. Reducing the rake, or angling the top of the mast more forward, has to reduce weather helm. Proper trimming in stronger wind such as spilling air from the main will also reduce weather helm.
But, I believe there are factors other than rake of the mast or trim. Boat design or improper boat design can cause an excessive weather helm and there's little that can be done to completely reduce it. Shape (or lack of shape) and location of the keel are also important factors.
I currently own a Seafarer 29' with a swing keel. Of all the boats I've owned this S29 has the most balanced helm I've experienced. I've sailed it with main alone, and with a 150% genoa alone, and there is little difference in respect to the helm.
Contrary to this example, there is a Cal 34' on my dock and the owner is complaining of a terrible weather helm. His mast doesn't appear to be raked too much, but we have discussed adjusting it too see if it will make a difference. It would help if he had a backstay adjuster. So far the only thing that has noticeably helped if he spills air from his main until the helm is balanced. Unfortunately, this is probably costing him some SOG.
Here's a quote from a post on Wikipedia about weather helm, " the root cause of the phenomenon is the relationship between the center of the force exerted by the sail plan, and the center of the resistance to that force by the hull, and not the angle of heel of the hull."
We assume that all boats and designed and tested by competent naval architects, but in Venture/Macgregor's situation back in the 70s who knows? What if cabin comfort is slightly sacrificed by locating the swing keel a few inches forward of it's best position for balance?
Here's links to a few good discussions and posts on this subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm
http://www.endeavourowners.com/dscsn/handling/wthrhlm.html
A comment on this post supports my position that a serious weather helm is most likely a result of the boat's design. Post from May 12, 1999, " I spoke with Rob at the Endeavour factory (he was there when they still built production boats) and he said even if you take all the rake out of the mast you can not tune out weatherhelm. He said people have had great success putting on a bowsprit and moving the headsail forward a couple of feet."
This is a great article on SailNet about "balance" in general.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-articles/19146-balance-hull-sails.html
But, I believe there are factors other than rake of the mast or trim. Boat design or improper boat design can cause an excessive weather helm and there's little that can be done to completely reduce it. Shape (or lack of shape) and location of the keel are also important factors.
I currently own a Seafarer 29' with a swing keel. Of all the boats I've owned this S29 has the most balanced helm I've experienced. I've sailed it with main alone, and with a 150% genoa alone, and there is little difference in respect to the helm.
Contrary to this example, there is a Cal 34' on my dock and the owner is complaining of a terrible weather helm. His mast doesn't appear to be raked too much, but we have discussed adjusting it too see if it will make a difference. It would help if he had a backstay adjuster. So far the only thing that has noticeably helped if he spills air from his main until the helm is balanced. Unfortunately, this is probably costing him some SOG.
Here's a quote from a post on Wikipedia about weather helm, " the root cause of the phenomenon is the relationship between the center of the force exerted by the sail plan, and the center of the resistance to that force by the hull, and not the angle of heel of the hull."
We assume that all boats and designed and tested by competent naval architects, but in Venture/Macgregor's situation back in the 70s who knows? What if cabin comfort is slightly sacrificed by locating the swing keel a few inches forward of it's best position for balance?
Here's links to a few good discussions and posts on this subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm
http://www.endeavourowners.com/dscsn/handling/wthrhlm.html
A comment on this post supports my position that a serious weather helm is most likely a result of the boat's design. Post from May 12, 1999, " I spoke with Rob at the Endeavour factory (he was there when they still built production boats) and he said even if you take all the rake out of the mast you can not tune out weatherhelm. He said people have had great success putting on a bowsprit and moving the headsail forward a couple of feet."
This is a great article on SailNet about "balance" in general.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-articles/19146-balance-hull-sails.html
from your source
Mitigation
Any action that reduces the angle of heel of a boat that is reaching or beating to windward will help reduce excessing weather helm. Racing sailors routinely try to use bodyweight or other moveable ballast to bring the boat to a more upright position. Reducing or reefing the total sail area will have the same effect and, counter-intuitively, many boats will sail faster with less sail in a stiff breeze once heel and weather helm have been reduced, due to the reduction in underwater drag (see Over-canvassed sailing). Easing the sheets on aft-most sails, such as the mainsail in a sloop or cutter can have an immediate effect, especially to help with manoeuvering. Moving or increasing sail area forward can also help, for example by raising the jib (and maybe lowering the staysail) on a cutter.
Sailing off the wind, weather helm may be caused by the imbalance due to fore-and-aft sails all being sheeted out on the same (leeward) side of the boat. Raising a spinnaker or poling out a headsail to windward with a whisker pole can help. Yachts making ocean trade wind crossings have rigged 'twins' - double headsails poled out to opposite sides from the same forestay for extended downwind passages without a mainsail.[2] Square rigged sails also provide relatively symmetric drive off the wind.
This seems better than a boat design error that no one seems to know anything about.
Mitigation
Any action that reduces the angle of heel of a boat that is reaching or beating to windward will help reduce excessing weather helm. Racing sailors routinely try to use bodyweight or other moveable ballast to bring the boat to a more upright position. Reducing or reefing the total sail area will have the same effect and, counter-intuitively, many boats will sail faster with less sail in a stiff breeze once heel and weather helm have been reduced, due to the reduction in underwater drag (see Over-canvassed sailing). Easing the sheets on aft-most sails, such as the mainsail in a sloop or cutter can have an immediate effect, especially to help with manoeuvering. Moving or increasing sail area forward can also help, for example by raising the jib (and maybe lowering the staysail) on a cutter.
Sailing off the wind, weather helm may be caused by the imbalance due to fore-and-aft sails all being sheeted out on the same (leeward) side of the boat. Raising a spinnaker or poling out a headsail to windward with a whisker pole can help. Yachts making ocean trade wind crossings have rigged 'twins' - double headsails poled out to opposite sides from the same forestay for extended downwind passages without a mainsail.[2] Square rigged sails also provide relatively symmetric drive off the wind.
This seems better than a boat design error that no one seems to know anything about.
My O-Day 22(1980) had pronounced weather helm when heeled. It took two hands on the tiller to keep the boat on course. Adjusting the centerboard did help, but when I installed a new rudder from IdaSailor it was a major change. Now the helm is very light with only slight weather helm regardless of the angle of heel. No other change to the mast or rigging was made. I had the same experience with my O'Day Mariner when I replaced the rudder.
When I bought my V-23, I had extreme weather helm. I thought the boat was the worst sailing boat that I had ever owned... but beautiful. I wrote to MacGregor and discovered that I had the keel in the wrong position. It should not hang straight down but should be angled back toward the stern. MacGregor gave me correct angle... there is a bolt hole in the hull and the keel (in my boat) that when a bolt is inserted holds the keel in the right position. That reposition solved the weather helm problem completely. Also, I do not use the small head sail (Yankee Jib) unless the wind is very light... the boat does not handle well other wise. Another big improvement in handling that I made was replacing the rudder with an IdaSailor rudder. The boat is a bit tippy in heavy wind but I have two solutions for that: a heavy crew or back-winding the main with the jib.
"The boat is a bit tippy in heavy wind but I have two solutions for that: a heavy crew or back-winding the main with the jib."
What does that mean?
I thought back-winding like a jib during tacking was where you hold the sail on the windward side of the boat. ( I do it on my Hobie cat to help blow the bow through tacks)
I don't understand how holding the main to the windward side of the boat could help with anything, much less reduce heeling.
Jim
What does that mean?
I thought back-winding like a jib during tacking was where you hold the sail on the windward side of the boat. ( I do it on my Hobie cat to help blow the bow through tacks)
I don't understand how holding the main to the windward side of the boat could help with anything, much less reduce heeling.
Jim
You backwind the main when you cause the air flow from the jib to actually push a dent in the main's airfoil instead of flowing over it and producing lift.
Weather Helm & Back-Winding
Ntnrobin, thanks for confirming that I wasn't the only V-23 owner with severe weather helm. I completely agree with your analogy, "unless the wind is very light... the boat does not handle well other wise." Granted, it's been a long time since I owned the Newport, but I had the same opinion of the boat as you, beautiful but not so good a sailing boat.
I do remember the keel alignment bolt. I sailed my Newport in a large man-made fresh water lake. The only deep parts of the lake are the runs of the old rivers. Otherwise the lake is relatively shallow.
If I ran aground with the keel bolt inserted it was almost impossible to remove. If I sailed with tension on the keel cable it sung like an out of tune violin, so I generally sailed with the keel all the way down. Your explanation from Venture HQ about the keel angle causing weather helm matches other information I've read about potential causes of weather helm.
Your terminology about back-winding the main is new to me but makes sense. With a weather helm you need to shift power or force ahead of the mast and reduce it to the rear of the mast. Seems like the easiest way to do this is just to set the main sheet traveler to the lee side or to spill air by letting out the main sheet.
How do you set the head sail to back-wind the main?
Ntnrobin, thanks for confirming that I wasn't the only V-23 owner with severe weather helm. I completely agree with your analogy, "unless the wind is very light... the boat does not handle well other wise." Granted, it's been a long time since I owned the Newport, but I had the same opinion of the boat as you, beautiful but not so good a sailing boat.
I do remember the keel alignment bolt. I sailed my Newport in a large man-made fresh water lake. The only deep parts of the lake are the runs of the old rivers. Otherwise the lake is relatively shallow.
If I ran aground with the keel bolt inserted it was almost impossible to remove. If I sailed with tension on the keel cable it sung like an out of tune violin, so I generally sailed with the keel all the way down. Your explanation from Venture HQ about the keel angle causing weather helm matches other information I've read about potential causes of weather helm.
Your terminology about back-winding the main is new to me but makes sense. With a weather helm you need to shift power or force ahead of the mast and reduce it to the rear of the mast. Seems like the easiest way to do this is just to set the main sheet traveler to the lee side or to spill air by letting out the main sheet.
How do you set the head sail to back-wind the main?
The Venture of Newport was a copy of a Pilot Boat from the late 1800's. Roger Macgreor stayed true to the design as much as possible with the exception of the swing keel. These boat were made to get out to incoming vessels quickly because whoever boarded first got the pilot fee into the harbor. Cute boat but very tender and not very roomy. Fair Winds and full Sails...
My Venture Newport Has a very neutral helm with full main and both jibs flying. I've never had the lock down bolt in the keel, I let the keel rest on this bolt. It does have too much weather helm on full main and staysail without the forward jib. I run everything up to 12 knots, put in the 1st reef point in the main at around 15. At 20 I then drop the forward jib. If the wind continues to 25 I luff the main a bit. The helm stays very neutral, the boat stiffens up quite a bit as it heels. The bowsprit and cockpit railings are mahogany from the factory on my boat. The mast does have a substantial rake to it, around 32 inches.
Now THAT'S interesting....
Are there any blueprints available of that style of Pilot Boat? Does the style have a name?
Where can I learn more about this era of Macgregor development?
Are there any scale plans for Macgregor sailboats (showing not only the Plan and Elevation views, but with the cross-sectional "lofts" that define hull shape in compound curves, as well?)
I would really like to build scale models of these boats, for display and in scales suitable for R/C. Don't expect there'd be a huge market, but knocking out some hulls for myself and the few who might want one would be worth doing, I think. :dance:
VBR,
Pat
Keel Angle
I bought one of the earliest model Newports built and one of the first ever sold in Georgia. I wonder if Venture made so modification in later models to address handling issues? One obvious change is that you noted that your bowsprit and cockpit railings were made from Mahogany. Mine were made of Oak and didn't hold up well because of the dimensional stability issue.
One thing I always admired about the Newport was her appearance. She was a beautiful little boat. I do remember the "substantial rake" and often wondered if this contributed to the weather helm. I can't remember ever making a change from the factory recommendations.
I'm glad the Newport has survived and has a loyal group of followers. I suspect the model still turns some eyes when she sails by.
There was another comment in this thread about the keel and keel bolt. I was under the belief that the bolt was to be inserted through the keel to be at the proper angle. It's been so many years ago that I owned the Newport I can't remember if I ever tried inserting the bolt and letting the keel rest on it, but this does make a lot of sense because the keel would be free to swing up when grounding occurs.
I bought one of the earliest model Newports built and one of the first ever sold in Georgia. I wonder if Venture made so modification in later models to address handling issues? One obvious change is that you noted that your bowsprit and cockpit railings were made from Mahogany. Mine were made of Oak and didn't hold up well because of the dimensional stability issue.
One thing I always admired about the Newport was her appearance. She was a beautiful little boat. I do remember the "substantial rake" and often wondered if this contributed to the weather helm. I can't remember ever making a change from the factory recommendations.
I'm glad the Newport has survived and has a loyal group of followers. I suspect the model still turns some eyes when she sails by.
...oh, and yes. The thought has crossed my mind. I could make a huge caliper out of lumber, and use that as a frame on which to tape together accurate 1:1 scale hull shapes at designated stations along the length of the boat. That way I can extrapolate down to produce my own accurate scale plans...well, accurate enough for me, anyway.
But that's all such a huge amount of extra work i don't have time for now. If there was some written reference where one could find this kind of drawings and diagrams, it would sure help.
Anybuddy know anythin' about that?
But that's all such a huge amount of extra work i don't have time for now. If there was some written reference where one could find this kind of drawings and diagrams, it would sure help.
Anybuddy know anythin' about that?
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