Sailing fast with instruments
- Thread starter Quoddy
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The C&C 35 i sail on it has full top shelf Ockam with 4 classic displays that allow you to slide in a card (there are 45 cards) to display anything ,there are things you would thing they made up 
We use Wind speed, Apparent wind speed ,Apparent wind angle and boat speed and while they help in some things you still have to look around and sail the boat .
The most usefull thing is wind speed as it helps pick the right sail and boat speed as we know from are polar speed chart how fast we should be going
If you want the Polar speed chart in the unit thats a LARGE amount of money
We use Wind speed, Apparent wind speed ,Apparent wind angle and boat speed and while they help in some things you still have to look around and sail the boat .
The most usefull thing is wind speed as it helps pick the right sail and boat speed as we know from are polar speed chart how fast we should be going
If you want the Polar speed chart in the unit thats a LARGE amount of money
Yes, on average.
For cruising I would suggest yes, you will sail a faster average. It is much easier to sit comfortably in the shade under the bimini looking straight ahead at an instrument. How many times have you tried to look up at the windex only to stare into the sun or have your favorite hat go over the stern(which really screws your average)? I have telltales on the shrouds. Half the time they are wet and glued to the wire. I like that I know where my boat likes to sail on each tack and, sitting in the corner with my toes around a spoke, can keep her right there regardless of windshifts.
For cruising I would suggest yes, you will sail a faster average. It is much easier to sit comfortably in the shade under the bimini looking straight ahead at an instrument. How many times have you tried to look up at the windex only to stare into the sun or have your favorite hat go over the stern(which really screws your average)? I have telltales on the shrouds. Half the time they are wet and glued to the wire. I like that I know where my boat likes to sail on each tack and, sitting in the corner with my toes around a spoke, can keep her right there regardless of windshifts.
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I find that instruments help ya sail more consistently quickly.. and especially help you to get to know what a boat “likes” more quickly. They REALLY are a help at night. My old Signet wind instrument has gone wonky and I miss it at night much more than in daylight.
Pretty much not at all. I learned to sail without them. We now have a wind speed and direction indicator which I rarely use for sailing because we "keep our heads outside the boat." The wind speed helps, but I've already figured out the size of the jib and the mainsail reefing decision based on weather reports and my own experience. We don't have a bimini, and instead of losing hats we clip 'em on with short tethers, although I have lost one or two over the years. I look up for sail trim, not the windex, because I can "feel" the wind, know from the helm where the groove is, and need to "see" the sails.
If you start with wind instruments, and you have the newer digital instead of analog available, there's a lot more good information for use.
This topic proves that in sailing sometimes there's no "right" answer.
If you start with wind instruments, and you have the newer digital instead of analog available, there's a lot more good information for use.
This topic proves that in sailing sometimes there's no "right" answer.
It only helps if you know what the best speeds and angles are. If you don't have data to compare too you don't need instruments.
What "feels" good is often good enough. Where wind instruments can help is displaying True Wind angles and VMG when sailing down wind. The apparent wind is not a good indicator of best sailing angle in 6-10 knots off the wind. But again you need to know the "right" numbers for your boat.
Of course any instrument is only as good as the calibration, the numbers are next to useless unless you have the knot meter calibrated correctly, GPS Speed is worthless as an input.
If you are serious, US Sailing can provide polars for your boat for under $400 (last time I checked). Once you know what the boat should be able to do, instruments give feedback ... an instant report card of your sailing performance.
Experience and feel are primary inputs, instruments are only for verification.
Useful
...especially in light air and night as has been pointed out. I am old enough that I had no instruments at all for 10 years. Then a knot meter, then a masthead fly, then a depthsounder, then Loran, then AP then windspeed / direction. The big advantage is my concentration. I break it when I look at the masthead fly. I use the wind to test angles of attack, sail trim, and most importantly, to detect shifts. In really light air in any seas at all, it's useless. Mostly, it helps confirm what the rest of your senses are telling you and finding the boat's sweet spot is still by feel as much as anything. If a helmsman can't feel it, the instruments won't help much since they will be hard pressed to stay on relying only on them.
Edited to add PS: I just re-read my post and find it to be about as useless a post I have seen in a long time! What WAS I thinking?
...especially in light air and night as has been pointed out. I am old enough that I had no instruments at all for 10 years. Then a knot meter, then a masthead fly, then a depthsounder, then Loran, then AP then windspeed / direction. The big advantage is my concentration. I break it when I look at the masthead fly. I use the wind to test angles of attack, sail trim, and most importantly, to detect shifts. In really light air in any seas at all, it's useless. Mostly, it helps confirm what the rest of your senses are telling you and finding the boat's sweet spot is still by feel as much as anything. If a helmsman can't feel it, the instruments won't help much since they will be hard pressed to stay on relying only on them.
Edited to add PS: I just re-read my post and find it to be about as useless a post I have seen in a long time! What WAS I thinking?
They're convenient, but I don't think the windspeed (not wind direction) indicator helps you sail faster. My masthead unit broke a number of years ago and I found that replacing it became a low priority. I bought a set of "shroud tells" (miiniature windvanes that mount on the shrouds so you don't have to crane your neck to look at the masthead fly all the time) that were really handy. I bought a handheld windspeed meter for about $80 in case I got curious about how hard it was blowing. Then guess what? You don't really need all that stuff... 'cause you can estimate the windspeed by looking at the water, and you can estimate the direction by feeling the back of your neck, and you can tell whether the sails are trimmed by looking at the tell tales and how fast the boat is moving.... but... I still like the instrument.... I just do.
Thanks on wind
Thanks.I now see how a wind speed instrument can be used to advantage or not depending on the circumstance.
Thanks.I now see how a wind speed instrument can be used to advantage or not depending on the circumstance.
Quoddy...
when racing we find that the apparent wind indicator and the GPS's SOG read-out helps us find "the groove" that the boat sails best in and helps us extract the best performance for that point of sail for the sail trim that's set for an upwind leg. As the wind shifts, we keep the same apparent wind angle degree, which helps us maintain the same boat SOG.
when racing we find that the apparent wind indicator and the GPS's SOG read-out helps us find "the groove" that the boat sails best in and helps us extract the best performance for that point of sail for the sail trim that's set for an upwind leg. As the wind shifts, we keep the same apparent wind angle degree, which helps us maintain the same boat SOG.
Re: Quoddy...
We took a basic keel boat class with another couple and the instructor was teaching everyone to sail using the wind instruments on the boat. I was getting frustrated and finally commented that few boats have such instruments and he took the hint, covered it up and taught everyone how to use tell tales properly. After we got off the boat the other couple thanked me for it, as they felt much more in tune with the boat when they weren't staring at an instrument.
I wouldn't mind having a wind instrument, but for me it would be to obtain more accurate wind speed at the mast head. Perhaps I would reef earlier and be safer if I had that information. On the other hand, perhaps I'd have less fun!
We took a basic keel boat class with another couple and the instructor was teaching everyone to sail using the wind instruments on the boat. I was getting frustrated and finally commented that few boats have such instruments and he took the hint, covered it up and taught everyone how to use tell tales properly. After we got off the boat the other couple thanked me for it, as they felt much more in tune with the boat when they weren't staring at an instrument.
I wouldn't mind having a wind instrument, but for me it would be to obtain more accurate wind speed at the mast head. Perhaps I would reef earlier and be safer if I had that information. On the other hand, perhaps I'd have less fun!
The earlier points both made were:
...'cause you can estimate the wind speed by looking at the water, and you can estimate the direction by feeling the back of your neck, and you can tell whether the sails are trimmed by looking at the tell tales and how fast the boat is moving....
and
After a few weeks we start guessing the wind speed by the sea state
are very well taken.
If you look up the Beaufort wind scale, you'll find the description of the sea states makes great sense and is very helpful in determining wind speeds. The "beginning of small whitecaps" is especially helpful. Easy to find the Beaufort scale and descriptions on wikipedia.
...'cause you can estimate the wind speed by looking at the water, and you can estimate the direction by feeling the back of your neck, and you can tell whether the sails are trimmed by looking at the tell tales and how fast the boat is moving....
and
After a few weeks we start guessing the wind speed by the sea state
are very well taken.
If you look up the Beaufort wind scale, you'll find the description of the sea states makes great sense and is very helpful in determining wind speeds. The "beginning of small whitecaps" is especially helpful. Easy to find the Beaufort scale and descriptions on wikipedia.
We use the AWI especially upwind at night,when putting a flashlight beam on the jib hurts your night vision and helps tell the competition where you are. Downwind it's helfpul for alerting you to windshifts that you wouldn't notice from the breeze hitting the side of your face. Windspeed is nice for making decisions about putting in or shaking out a reef. You can log the windspeed over an hour or so to see if it's really dropping or picking up, and act accordingly. Wind info is nice to have.
Weather helm & lots of heeling ...
Those are usually the signals that indicate it is time to reduce sail for us. However I like having a wind instrument and won't go without if I can help it. Like everybody says, it sure makes a difference at night when you can't see the indicator at the top of the mast anyway. Besides, with a bimini, I can't see the top of the mast without a lot of gymnastics. It may not be a big deal to those of you who have steady wind directions. We don't. Our wind direction is never steady.
It makes it very simple when I tell my wife or guests to keep that needle on 45 degrees when we're going up wind or 90 when we're reaching for instance and I set the sails accordingly. We're never on a course heading anyway, so this way, I can set the sails for the general direction we're going and the helmsman can be busy adjusting the course for the wind while I relax & enjoy a conversation. Before I replaced the broken wind instrument that came with the boat, I was always interrupting conversation to remind somebody that the course had to be adjusted because the wind direction was changing. Either that, or I was jumping around the boat adjusting sail trim in a fruitless attempt to have proper sail trim. It's much better now ... my wife makes small adjustments simply by keeping an eye on the needle and I don't make her nervous with constant fussing. If I asked her to constantly look at the top of the mast, it wouldn't take long for her to be flipping me the bird!
Those are usually the signals that indicate it is time to reduce sail for us. However I like having a wind instrument and won't go without if I can help it. Like everybody says, it sure makes a difference at night when you can't see the indicator at the top of the mast anyway. Besides, with a bimini, I can't see the top of the mast without a lot of gymnastics. It may not be a big deal to those of you who have steady wind directions. We don't. Our wind direction is never steady.
It makes it very simple when I tell my wife or guests to keep that needle on 45 degrees when we're going up wind or 90 when we're reaching for instance and I set the sails accordingly. We're never on a course heading anyway, so this way, I can set the sails for the general direction we're going and the helmsman can be busy adjusting the course for the wind while I relax & enjoy a conversation. Before I replaced the broken wind instrument that came with the boat, I was always interrupting conversation to remind somebody that the course had to be adjusted because the wind direction was changing. Either that, or I was jumping around the boat adjusting sail trim in a fruitless attempt to have proper sail trim. It's much better now ... my wife makes small adjustments simply by keeping an eye on the needle and I don't make her nervous with constant fussing. If I asked her to constantly look at the top of the mast, it wouldn't take long for her to be flipping me the bird!
NO!!!!
The ONLY 'instruments' that can help 'boatspeed' are a full set of tell tales and the knotmeter. If the tell tales ('full set' of tell tales on luff/midcord/leechs are flying perfectly), then you WONT have the right sail SHAPE, SET ... and ATTACK angle of the sail(s). A 'windmachine' (anemometer and direction vane) will only tell you the speed of the 'air' and the apparent angle .... and is too insensitive in comparison to your eyeball watching the tell tales (especially a sequential row of 'steering tell-tales' mounted on the headsail). One the sails are set up and shaped so that the tell tales are perfect, then all you have to do is monitor the 'steering tales' and the speedo ... for maximum/optimum speed.
Only at night when you cant see the tell-tales is a wind-machine 'superior' to the human eyeball and the human brain.
The ONLY 'instruments' that can help 'boatspeed' are a full set of tell tales and the knotmeter. If the tell tales ('full set' of tell tales on luff/midcord/leechs are flying perfectly), then you WONT have the right sail SHAPE, SET ... and ATTACK angle of the sail(s). A 'windmachine' (anemometer and direction vane) will only tell you the speed of the 'air' and the apparent angle .... and is too insensitive in comparison to your eyeball watching the tell tales (especially a sequential row of 'steering tell-tales' mounted on the headsail). One the sails are set up and shaped so that the tell tales are perfect, then all you have to do is monitor the 'steering tales' and the speedo ... for maximum/optimum speed.
Only at night when you cant see the tell-tales is a wind-machine 'superior' to the human eyeball and the human brain.
Windex, telltales, inclinometer, water, GPS & eyes open
For me, the joy of sailing lies in the intense attention to the sails, the boat, and the water to keep the boat sailing as best it can. We have often chartered boats with complete sets of instrumentation, and I end up ignoring them. I feel sure that the instruments listed above are all I need when close hauled, or reaching. The inclinometer tells us when we are carrying too much sail - the groove for Lady Lillie, a '77 h27 is at a 15 degree heel.
I am intrigued with the idea of using velocity made good on down wind courses to optimize them, so I will be playing with the GPS the next time we are running for a long leg. Watching the other boats works in a one design race, but I also see the advantage of polars and instruments for racing in a PHRF fleet of different boats. But we are cruising only on Lady Lillie, so wind instruments are not needed!
For me, the joy of sailing lies in the intense attention to the sails, the boat, and the water to keep the boat sailing as best it can. We have often chartered boats with complete sets of instrumentation, and I end up ignoring them. I feel sure that the instruments listed above are all I need when close hauled, or reaching. The inclinometer tells us when we are carrying too much sail - the groove for Lady Lillie, a '77 h27 is at a 15 degree heel.
I am intrigued with the idea of using velocity made good on down wind courses to optimize them, so I will be playing with the GPS the next time we are running for a long leg. Watching the other boats works in a one design race, but I also see the advantage of polars and instruments for racing in a PHRF fleet of different boats. But we are cruising only on Lady Lillie, so wind instruments are not needed!
David, you can use it going upwind, too. Set the GPS waypoint for at least 1,000 miles away going upwind at the true wind direction bearing. Going downwind, use the next mark.
Thanks, Stu
That's a good idea. But I am thinking more about making the best time while cruising. I'm also saying that while close to the wind, I don't see the need for VMG. If the boat is setup right for the wind (watching the sails, windex, telltales, and heel) then it's about reading and responding to waves, gusts, calms, and shifts, with an occasional sail trim adjustment.
Or am I missing something?
I'm learning from this thread that there are differences on a run. There are far fewer cues from the wind, heel, and telltales. The waves can easily push you far off course. And, the best course to steer may not be obvious, because sailing higher may significantly increase speed, and VMG.
That's a good idea. But I am thinking more about making the best time while cruising. I'm also saying that while close to the wind, I don't see the need for VMG. If the boat is setup right for the wind (watching the sails, windex, telltales, and heel) then it's about reading and responding to waves, gusts, calms, and shifts, with an occasional sail trim adjustment.
Or am I missing something?
I'm learning from this thread that there are differences on a run. There are far fewer cues from the wind, heel, and telltales. The waves can easily push you far off course. And, the best course to steer may not be obvious, because sailing higher may significantly increase speed, and VMG.
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