now that my sailing season is over (for the time being) it is now time to think about ways that I can improve my boat for better sail trim. This past year I purchased a whole new suit of upwind sails which (now that I've used them all season) made a huge improovment in my upwind sailing. The pointing ability was vastly improoved, my speed was up slightly and my boat moved up in my club standings week in and week out. I did notice , however, that in medium to heavy air, I still was unable to set my sails like I wanted them. I believe that this was due to poor sheets and halyards. I could actually see the genny lose some shape as the sheet(and halyard) stretched. SO my question to you Don, and everyone else, what type of sheets and halyards are you using on your boats?? I'm not looking for grand prix level rigging as my allowance will not allow me that, but I do not want to use what I've been using 3/8 in.sta set for both halyards and sheets) regards, Mike C.
- Status
West Marine's catalog
has a great line stretch comparison. We also have Sta Set and I wished I'd bought less stretchy line when we re-rigged a few years ago. Our main shows scallops way too early, and the cunningham eventually runs out of room, so we sometimes just feather up and re-raise the main halyard. We regularly re-lift our jib halyard before a sail, since we use a ProFurl with a rope pennant at the jib tack. Racing friends of ours have various "exotic" lines for halyards and sheets that I simply can't afford nor would need for our practices. There are literally dozens of different lines out there. Your boat, your pocketbook. Ummm, what boat do you have? I keep suggesting, on a semi-regular basis, that folks add their boat type to their signature, so we don't have to keep asking this same question, over and over again. If you've got a C30, the more appropriate answer for you may be WAY different than if you have a J30!
has a great line stretch comparison. We also have Sta Set and I wished I'd bought less stretchy line when we re-rigged a few years ago. Our main shows scallops way too early, and the cunningham eventually runs out of room, so we sometimes just feather up and re-raise the main halyard. We regularly re-lift our jib halyard before a sail, since we use a ProFurl with a rope pennant at the jib tack. Racing friends of ours have various "exotic" lines for halyards and sheets that I simply can't afford nor would need for our practices. There are literally dozens of different lines out there. Your boat, your pocketbook. Ummm, what boat do you have? I keep suggesting, on a semi-regular basis, that folks add their boat type to their signature, so we don't have to keep asking this same question, over and over again. If you've got a C30, the more appropriate answer for you may be WAY different than if you have a J30!
Performance = $$$
Unfortunately, speed costs money. For Genoa sheets, main, and jib halyards, low stretch line pays off. For tackle systems like mainsheets, vangs, cunningham etc. you won't gain very much. New England Ropes makes a parallel core Dacron rope (Sta-Set X?) that is much lower stretch for not much more money. Marlowbraid and Excel are very low stretch (for Dacron)and work well for Halyards, Sheets etc. For low stretch halyards it is hard to beat 7x19 Stainless Wire Rope. They stretch about the same as a Spectra halyard of the same weight and they don't "creep" like spectra does. My priorities would be, Jib Halyard, Jib Sheets, Main Halyard ... In that order if I was going to upgrade one line at a time.
Unfortunately, speed costs money. For Genoa sheets, main, and jib halyards, low stretch line pays off. For tackle systems like mainsheets, vangs, cunningham etc. you won't gain very much. New England Ropes makes a parallel core Dacron rope (Sta-Set X?) that is much lower stretch for not much more money. Marlowbraid and Excel are very low stretch (for Dacron)and work well for Halyards, Sheets etc. For low stretch halyards it is hard to beat 7x19 Stainless Wire Rope. They stretch about the same as a Spectra halyard of the same weight and they don't "creep" like spectra does. My priorities would be, Jib Halyard, Jib Sheets, Main Halyard ... In that order if I was going to upgrade one line at a time.
Boat & Age?
You don't say what you're driving and how old it' equipment is. 3/8" StaSet seems too small for halyards or Genoa sheets on anything bigger than 26': if I recall, StaSetX was the next generation and Spectra would be better yer for the Genoa halyard.
You don't say what you're driving and how old it' equipment is. 3/8" StaSet seems too small for halyards or Genoa sheets on anything bigger than 26': if I recall, StaSetX was the next generation and Spectra would be better yer for the Genoa halyard.
build a tapered halyard this winter....
....lots of fun and it will absolutely upgrade your rigging. The cost is moderate compared to buying high tech double braid such as Samson Warp Speed and stripping the cover off the unhandled, uncleated sections. Go to www.apsltd.com for examples and pictures. here's the cordage page. http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e826.asp Doing your own splicing will save you some dough... it's pretty easy to eyesplice single braid (core) and splice the cover into the core. The cordage websites have spicing instruction for their products. Samson, Yale, Marlow, etc.... Anyway, study the products and splicing services on their website and you'll learn a lot about what racers are doing. Might help you move up next summer, never can tell. It's cheaper to purchase the core and cover separately, and put them together, rather than buy the hi-tech douple braid such as Warpspeed and strip off the cover. Remember that the hi tech is stronger. An 80 ft 3/8" sta set halyard, for example, could have 80 ft of 3/16 Yale Ultrex 12 @ .76/ft covered with 40 ft of 5/16" Yale "cover only" @ .51/ft. That's about $100, plus shipping and whatever shackle you choose. Cover splice and eyesplice cost about 40 bucks... but you can do that yourself. splice page here http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e910.asp Stripping hi tech for example: 80ft of 5/16" Samson Warp Speed @ $1.91/ft or about $152 before shipping and professional splicing. So, essentially you save 50 bucks by covering and tapering. Even better... you have a lot of fun with a neat winter project and you can delight your pals at the YC with your marlinspike seamanship.
....lots of fun and it will absolutely upgrade your rigging. The cost is moderate compared to buying high tech double braid such as Samson Warp Speed and stripping the cover off the unhandled, uncleated sections. Go to www.apsltd.com for examples and pictures. here's the cordage page. http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e826.asp Doing your own splicing will save you some dough... it's pretty easy to eyesplice single braid (core) and splice the cover into the core. The cordage websites have spicing instruction for their products. Samson, Yale, Marlow, etc.... Anyway, study the products and splicing services on their website and you'll learn a lot about what racers are doing. Might help you move up next summer, never can tell. It's cheaper to purchase the core and cover separately, and put them together, rather than buy the hi-tech douple braid such as Warpspeed and strip off the cover. Remember that the hi tech is stronger. An 80 ft 3/8" sta set halyard, for example, could have 80 ft of 3/16 Yale Ultrex 12 @ .76/ft covered with 40 ft of 5/16" Yale "cover only" @ .51/ft. That's about $100, plus shipping and whatever shackle you choose. Cover splice and eyesplice cost about 40 bucks... but you can do that yourself. splice page here http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e910.asp Stripping hi tech for example: 80ft of 5/16" Samson Warp Speed @ $1.91/ft or about $152 before shipping and professional splicing. So, essentially you save 50 bucks by covering and tapering. Even better... you have a lot of fun with a neat winter project and you can delight your pals at the YC with your marlinspike seamanship.
Stretched Halyards
Mike C: Personally I don't like main and jib halyards that stretch and here's why and it may not be something a lot of sailors think about. There are 4 sail trim elements you are adjusting with your mainsail and jib sail trim controls and they are draft position, draft depth, twist and angle of attack. The main halyard is one of the controls that adjusts draft position. The jib halyard not only is one of the controls for draft position but also for draft depth. What a sailor is trying to do is maintain a mainsail and jib draft position of about 50%. The wind is always trying to push the draft position beyond 50% or aft. That is not very efficient and a sailor has to adjust his controls to move DP forward. The way I see the problem with stretchy halyards is I have enough problem dealing with the wind and now I have to deal with the easing effect (DP moves aft) of the halyards stretching. It is worse with the jib halyard because not only is the draft position moving aft BUT the draft depth is also increasing. If you have a masthead rig the jib is the engine and if that sail becomes less efficient you kill the boats efficiency. This is one of the reasons I equiped my boat with both a jib and mainsail cunnigham. With that control I did not have to mess with the halyards. My halyards were at the mast and before I installed cunnighams for the main and jib every time I tried to make an adjustment I ended up with a mess of line on the deck and a poor adjusment. The final straw was when one time I tried to adjust the jib halyard and the top came off the tube and I could not get it back. The next day I installed a jib cunningham. I don't think stretch is a factor with sheets. I'm more interested in how they feel in my hands. I hope everyone understands the principles of draft position and draft depth. If you don't just sound off and I'll explain it. Perhaps most have not heard of halyards expressed this way. Does what I'm suggesting make any sense?
Mike C: Personally I don't like main and jib halyards that stretch and here's why and it may not be something a lot of sailors think about. There are 4 sail trim elements you are adjusting with your mainsail and jib sail trim controls and they are draft position, draft depth, twist and angle of attack. The main halyard is one of the controls that adjusts draft position. The jib halyard not only is one of the controls for draft position but also for draft depth. What a sailor is trying to do is maintain a mainsail and jib draft position of about 50%. The wind is always trying to push the draft position beyond 50% or aft. That is not very efficient and a sailor has to adjust his controls to move DP forward. The way I see the problem with stretchy halyards is I have enough problem dealing with the wind and now I have to deal with the easing effect (DP moves aft) of the halyards stretching. It is worse with the jib halyard because not only is the draft position moving aft BUT the draft depth is also increasing. If you have a masthead rig the jib is the engine and if that sail becomes less efficient you kill the boats efficiency. This is one of the reasons I equiped my boat with both a jib and mainsail cunnigham. With that control I did not have to mess with the halyards. My halyards were at the mast and before I installed cunnighams for the main and jib every time I tried to make an adjustment I ended up with a mess of line on the deck and a poor adjusment. The final straw was when one time I tried to adjust the jib halyard and the top came off the tube and I could not get it back. The next day I installed a jib cunningham. I don't think stretch is a factor with sheets. I'm more interested in how they feel in my hands. I hope everyone understands the principles of draft position and draft depth. If you don't just sound off and I'll explain it. Perhaps most have not heard of halyards expressed this way. Does what I'm suggesting make any sense?
Don, I think that stretch is factor of not only
the fiber content but also of line size. If the halyard is of minimum size then stretch will be more pronounced than if the halyards are more robust. There has been much discussion about reducing halyard size to minimize weight aloft but how much is lost in one area in an effort to gain an advantage in another area?
the fiber content but also of line size. If the halyard is of minimum size then stretch will be more pronounced than if the halyards are more robust. There has been much discussion about reducing halyard size to minimize weight aloft but how much is lost in one area in an effort to gain an advantage in another area?
Stretch is a percentage of length ...
Ross is right, larger diameter line stretches less because the load is a smaller percentage of the line's strength. You can reduce stretch by going larger diameter, but you add weight aloft. You can also reduce stretch without adding weight by going with a Spectra, Vectran, or blended construction of the same diameter as the old line. You can reduce stretch and reduce weight by going with high tech line, but you pay a price. For a real life comparison here are the numbers for a Catalina 30 Jib Halyard: 46ft 5/32 7x19 wire 44ft 3/8 Double Braid 46ft of 5/32 wire weighs about 30 ounces 44ft of Double Braid weighs about 31 ounces Assume a 200 pound load on the halyard. 5/32 wire is rated 2400 lbs, under 200lbs tension (8%) it will stretch about 1.16" If the halyard is changed to all 3/8 double braid (rated about 5100 lbs) 200lbs is just under 4% of rated strength. 46ft of 3/8 double braid will stretch about 8.5" under 200lbs load. Changing from rope/wire to all rope increases halyard stretch over 7 times. Low stretch line like Marlow Braid reduces the halyard stretch to 4.25", still 3.5 times the stretch of the rope/wire halyard. Using high tech line like Vectran or Spectra in the same diameter gives a halyard that stretches between 1.09" and 1.17" under 200 lbs load. In this example, to match the performance of the rope/wire halyard, we have to use the same diameter line (as the old rope tail) in Spectra or Vectran to get the same stretch as the old halyard. The original halyard weighed 61 ounces (without the shackle). The same 90 feet of Covered Vectran weighs 71 ounces, in Spectra it weighs 57 ounces. To reduce weight aloft and retain the same stretch as a rope/wire halyard, stripping the cover saves 40-55% of the weight. For cost comparison, West Marine has a 90' 5/32 to 3/8" rope/wire halyard for $124.99. Vectran double braid is about $3.00/ft or $270. Spectra double braid is only $1.45/ft or $130.50 Now here's the rub ... rope looses strength with time and usage. Marlow states that their ropes retain a minimum 50% of rated strength after 3 years. Vectran is almost double the cost of a wire/rope halyard, Spectra creeps (gets longer and thinner every time you use it) and costs as much as the wire/rope halyard. If you expect top performance from your lines, and use small diameters that see 20% of rated strength or more under normal conditions, you should be replacing the line every 3-5 years. Makes the rope/wire construction look pretty good doesn't it?
Ross is right, larger diameter line stretches less because the load is a smaller percentage of the line's strength. You can reduce stretch by going larger diameter, but you add weight aloft. You can also reduce stretch without adding weight by going with a Spectra, Vectran, or blended construction of the same diameter as the old line. You can reduce stretch and reduce weight by going with high tech line, but you pay a price. For a real life comparison here are the numbers for a Catalina 30 Jib Halyard: 46ft 5/32 7x19 wire 44ft 3/8 Double Braid 46ft of 5/32 wire weighs about 30 ounces 44ft of Double Braid weighs about 31 ounces Assume a 200 pound load on the halyard. 5/32 wire is rated 2400 lbs, under 200lbs tension (8%) it will stretch about 1.16" If the halyard is changed to all 3/8 double braid (rated about 5100 lbs) 200lbs is just under 4% of rated strength. 46ft of 3/8 double braid will stretch about 8.5" under 200lbs load. Changing from rope/wire to all rope increases halyard stretch over 7 times. Low stretch line like Marlow Braid reduces the halyard stretch to 4.25", still 3.5 times the stretch of the rope/wire halyard. Using high tech line like Vectran or Spectra in the same diameter gives a halyard that stretches between 1.09" and 1.17" under 200 lbs load. In this example, to match the performance of the rope/wire halyard, we have to use the same diameter line (as the old rope tail) in Spectra or Vectran to get the same stretch as the old halyard. The original halyard weighed 61 ounces (without the shackle). The same 90 feet of Covered Vectran weighs 71 ounces, in Spectra it weighs 57 ounces. To reduce weight aloft and retain the same stretch as a rope/wire halyard, stripping the cover saves 40-55% of the weight. For cost comparison, West Marine has a 90' 5/32 to 3/8" rope/wire halyard for $124.99. Vectran double braid is about $3.00/ft or $270. Spectra double braid is only $1.45/ft or $130.50 Now here's the rub ... rope looses strength with time and usage. Marlow states that their ropes retain a minimum 50% of rated strength after 3 years. Vectran is almost double the cost of a wire/rope halyard, Spectra creeps (gets longer and thinner every time you use it) and costs as much as the wire/rope halyard. If you expect top performance from your lines, and use small diameters that see 20% of rated strength or more under normal conditions, you should be replacing the line every 3-5 years. Makes the rope/wire construction look pretty good doesn't it?
Stretchy sheets ...
Don, Sheets that stretch are like trimming your sails with bungee cord. If you have stretchy Dacron sails, stretchy Dacron sheets go unnoticed. If you have a good laminate sail, those stretchy sheets will require constant adjustment to keep a sail trimmed. For good "hand" many boats have 1/2" or 9/16" diameter sheets. The load on the sheet is a small percentage of the strength of the line, and the length of sheet under load is small compared to a halyard. The stretch is small, but it is there and it reduces drive every time there is a puff. Beg, borrow or steal a set of Spectra jib sheets and after a day of sailing, change back to your old Dacron sheets ... you will see the difference.
Don, Sheets that stretch are like trimming your sails with bungee cord. If you have stretchy Dacron sails, stretchy Dacron sheets go unnoticed. If you have a good laminate sail, those stretchy sheets will require constant adjustment to keep a sail trimmed. For good "hand" many boats have 1/2" or 9/16" diameter sheets. The load on the sheet is a small percentage of the strength of the line, and the length of sheet under load is small compared to a halyard. The stretch is small, but it is there and it reduces drive every time there is a puff. Beg, borrow or steal a set of Spectra jib sheets and after a day of sailing, change back to your old Dacron sheets ... you will see the difference.
Moody , I have a question concerning halyard
stretch. Granted that initial stretch when hoisting and setting the sail may be larger with some fiber than with others, after the initial tensioning how much additional stretch can be expected from wind loading? In your example you use a 200 pound tension load for the halyard and assuming that fiber creep is nil that preset tension will remain in place. This is not to argue but to clairify. If the initial tension were low than wind loading would be a large factor but if the halyards are set-up very tight, won't the additional stretch from wind loading be minimized?
stretch. Granted that initial stretch when hoisting and setting the sail may be larger with some fiber than with others, after the initial tensioning how much additional stretch can be expected from wind loading? In your example you use a 200 pound tension load for the halyard and assuming that fiber creep is nil that preset tension will remain in place. This is not to argue but to clairify. If the initial tension were low than wind loading would be a large factor but if the halyards are set-up very tight, won't the additional stretch from wind loading be minimized?
Good question Ross
You can think of line and rigging wire as springs. Within the elastic range of the material, the relationship between stretch and load is linear. If you have a material that stretches 5% at 25% load, that material will stretch 1% for each 5% of rated strength. If you start at 5% load, the stretch will be 1%. If the load goes to 25% the stretch will be 5%, a change of 4%. If you start at 10% load and the load goes to 25% the change will be only 3%. The logical conclusion is that if the halyard is tensioned to 25% to begin with, and the load from the wind maxes out at 25%, the halyard will not stretch when the wind comes up. So, in theory, you are right. Setting the halyard up very tight to begin will reduce the stretch from wind loading. You were also correct about line size. For example if one halyard is rated 1000 pounds and another is rated 2000 pounds (both the same material), the bigger halyard will stretch only half as much as the smaller one. The reason we put comparatively large loads on standing rigging is to pre-stretch the wire so the loads when the boat heels don't increase the tension required to keep the mast straight. It does not work so well with sails. As the tension in the luff of a sail changes, so does the sail shape. Halyard (luff) tension has to be matched to the wind load to keep the sail in the correct shape. The sail itself stretches, so as the wind load gets higher the balance of tensions in the cloth changes and the sail gets deeper (more draft) and the position of maximum draft moves aft. The tension in the halyard (or cunningham) restores the tensions in the sail to move the draft back to the design point of the sail. If you set the halyard up dead tight to start with, you will reduce or eliminate halyard stretch due to wind load, but you will have vertical wrinkles in the luff of the sail in light air, and the sail shape will only be correct when the wind load balances the halyard tension. Just as the jib sheet tension has to be adjusted as the wind speed changes, so does luff tension. With stretchy halyards, the sail shape goes to hell and drive is lost as wind speed changes until the luff tension is corrected. Reducing halyard stretch reduces the distortion caused by changes in wind speed. Did that make sense? Randy
You can think of line and rigging wire as springs. Within the elastic range of the material, the relationship between stretch and load is linear. If you have a material that stretches 5% at 25% load, that material will stretch 1% for each 5% of rated strength. If you start at 5% load, the stretch will be 1%. If the load goes to 25% the stretch will be 5%, a change of 4%. If you start at 10% load and the load goes to 25% the change will be only 3%. The logical conclusion is that if the halyard is tensioned to 25% to begin with, and the load from the wind maxes out at 25%, the halyard will not stretch when the wind comes up. So, in theory, you are right. Setting the halyard up very tight to begin will reduce the stretch from wind loading. You were also correct about line size. For example if one halyard is rated 1000 pounds and another is rated 2000 pounds (both the same material), the bigger halyard will stretch only half as much as the smaller one. The reason we put comparatively large loads on standing rigging is to pre-stretch the wire so the loads when the boat heels don't increase the tension required to keep the mast straight. It does not work so well with sails. As the tension in the luff of a sail changes, so does the sail shape. Halyard (luff) tension has to be matched to the wind load to keep the sail in the correct shape. The sail itself stretches, so as the wind load gets higher the balance of tensions in the cloth changes and the sail gets deeper (more draft) and the position of maximum draft moves aft. The tension in the halyard (or cunningham) restores the tensions in the sail to move the draft back to the design point of the sail. If you set the halyard up dead tight to start with, you will reduce or eliminate halyard stretch due to wind load, but you will have vertical wrinkles in the luff of the sail in light air, and the sail shape will only be correct when the wind load balances the halyard tension. Just as the jib sheet tension has to be adjusted as the wind speed changes, so does luff tension. With stretchy halyards, the sail shape goes to hell and drive is lost as wind speed changes until the luff tension is corrected. Reducing halyard stretch reduces the distortion caused by changes in wind speed. Did that make sense? Randy
Jib sheets
Moody: I take back what I said about jib sheets. The more I thought about your comments I realized your right.
Moody: I take back what I said about jib sheets. The more I thought about your comments I realized your right.
No Worry
Stretch on jib sheets is small. Where you will see it most is in higher winds when you have the #3 (100%) jib up and the loaded sheet is longer. In those conditions a Dacron sheet will stretch 3/4" or more in a 5 knot gust. A 3/4" change of trim on blade is a major change. On a 150% in light air the difference is very small, since loads are small and the loaded part of the sheet is short.
Stretch on jib sheets is small. Where you will see it most is in higher winds when you have the #3 (100%) jib up and the loaded sheet is longer. In those conditions a Dacron sheet will stretch 3/4" or more in a 5 knot gust. A 3/4" change of trim on blade is a major change. On a 150% in light air the difference is very small, since loads are small and the loaded part of the sheet is short.
- Status