Sail material and cuts

David in Sandusky · Nov 3, 2013

You're right

The sexy materials - Mylar sandwiches, etc. will absolutely hold their shape, last a few versus 10 years for Dacron, and cost around three times as much last time I looked. They are pretty much for race fanatics.

The forces on sails are tri-radial so the modern cuts allow you to line up linear strength of a material with the stress on the sail. Not sure why it would cost more than a parallel cut - the issue is labor, I guess.

When we bought Lady Lillie, I got quotes from three local sailmakers, and talked to them. Ended up choosing Greg Koski (now Ullman Sails) and have stuck with him for 13 years now. His prices are competitive for a local loft, but the big benefit was and remains his advice on sail selection, rigging, and tuning. His rigger also had a cast-off locker that provided a winch, and other hardware to run lines back to the cockpit at no cost! Sail storage through the winter and regular checks and maintenance are other benefits.

In my opinion, those benefits easily outweigh the savings of an off-shore loft. But friends I respect disagree, and that's OK.

In any case, it's free to check out a sailmaker, and you can learn a lot quickly. If not, then find another sailmaker!

By the way our first set of Dacron sails lasted 10 years - about 1,000 hours, using normal covers. Our original nylon asymmetric spinnaker is still going strong, after about 300 hours of use.

Sanfelice · Nov 3, 2013

mack sails

Excellent sail loft but the site also has some great information on sailcloth and construction. A pretty nice tutorial which may be what you are looking for.

http://www.macksails.com/

Clark · Nov 4, 2013

25yearslater said:
Well this is how I was hoping to proceed. Starting with the main, I chose a basic crosscut dacron with standard battens. It offers an economical sail that delivers adequate performance. What is the advantage of a maxi roach main with full length battens? What are these triradial oriented panels I am seeing with the silver black material? The downside to dacron is weight aloft and stretch. Am I correct? Durability and cost are the advantage. How about it folks, comments?

A maxi-roach main provides more sail area for the given mast/boom dimensions and the full length battens provide the stability to support a larger roach while minimizing flutter on the leech. It also stacks nicely on the boom

The down side is it makes the sail a little more difficult to raise and many boats are restrictive on a main's roach due to the backstay. My 280 has a fat roach with (mostly) full battens but she has no backstay to contend with.
A tri-radial design orients the stronger parts of the cloth with the three primary load points from the head, tack and clew. Silver/black material can be a milar/carbon composite - waaay expensive unless you race. I have some of those on my Capri22 and love them but the final weight of the main's construction is as much as a good dacron. My 155 is lighter though than a comparable dacron genoa.
With all that said; a good quality dacron crosscut will perform well in cruising/day sailing use and last for many years.

rufus1138 · Nov 4, 2013

no matter what design and material i have to point out (from experience on racing and cruising boats both) that there is a reason that north sails is used without question for the a.c. boats, vendee globe, volvo ocean race, clipper round the world race, the list is endless really. they just make the best sails and have the best people. if you want sails built right go north, not affiliated just been around local and north and i can say there is definitely a difference.

shnool · Nov 11, 2013

I've got D4 loadpath sails for my Capri 25 (yes my name is John, and I race, it's been x days since my last race)... they were 20% more expensive than cross-cut dacron (they were NOT twice as expensive).

The choice of D4 loadpath, versus tri-radial mylar, versus 3DL or such is really even MORE nuance than your opening question. These various "ways" of cutting laminate sails, leads to, strength versus weight scenarios... The weight of my D4 main is about 2/3 the weight of my old dacron one. The weight of my D4 genoa is about 1/2 the weight of my old dacron one, except it's twice as strong to the loaded forces while sailing. All of the extra strength benefits go out the window if you fold a laminate sail... therefore I'd strongly recommend AGAINST a laminate sail for a "daily sail."

Racers like the exotic materials mostly because they stretch less.... that's the bottom line. The sail may not last as long, but during it's serviceable life, the shape of the sail will be MORE consistent. That's all. After a long conversation with my sail maker, I decided to go loadpath for both my #1 genoa, AND my main... My 6 month sailing season, and the fact that I sail 2-3 times a week during that season, lead me to believe my sails should give me 5 years "real life" which is MORE than enough for me. It also meant that I could roll the mainsail and leave it on the boom, and just use my 30yo dacron #1 when I am just messing around.

RichH · Nov 13, 2013

For a full 'tricked-out' (mega-expensive) racing campaign nothing beats the high end laminates because of their dimensional stability. The downside to laminates is their inability to be shaped to meet varying wind and wave condition - the shape you buy is the shape you get and little can be done to change/alter that shape when under way. Most laminates should be chosen for the very narrow wind and wave conditions - usually within 5-10 knots of anticipated. That said if your desire is to 'campaign' successfully you're going to need 'several' full suits of laminate based sails simply because of lack of shape 'adjustability' ... unless all your racing is in quite stable and consistent wind and seastate.

On the other end of 'stability-stretch' spectrum is woven dacron; yet there are dacron materials/fabrics that are quite 'stable' especially when cut to 'radial' sail configurations. Such high stability dacron in racing format is or can be obtained 'filled' to lessen air permeability and the bias-stretch of such fabric matched to the normal applied stress ... but still 'slightly stretchable' allowing some 'adjustability' of accurate sail shaping (I dont mean 'trim' when I say 'shape').
Cross-cut configuration made with woven dacron remains the most stretchy and therefore the most shape adjustable over a very wide range of wind and seastate conditions, followed by 'high-quality' (Contender, Bainbridge, etc.) dacron in a 'radial' type configuration for better shape holding, but less 'adjustability' of that sail shape.
Cross Cut configuration made with quality fabric probably should still be the main choice for the 'cruiser' or daysailor who occasionally races.
There are now 'cruising dacron laminates' that are quite stable and with quite long service life between plain vanilla woven dacron and the lower level full laminates.

Special note on dacron sails with boltropes - Overall the chief problems with woven dacron ('all' sails made of woven dacron) is that they are usually built with a 3 strand 'rope' included in a luff sleeve, sometimes extended along the foot in a 'shelf foot' sail. This 'rope' is there to prevent the dacron sail from changing its luff (and foot) dimension during a wide range varying windstrengths. Continual stretching or stressing of this 'rope' causes it to eventually *shorten* its dimension --- the prime cause of 'baggy' woven dacron sails. If the sailor REQUIRES that an extra length of boltrope be added and 'stored' at the head board and clew area so that the boltrope can be later adjusted back to it 'designed' length .... most of the 'problems' (developing bagginess, etc.) can be easily and inexpensively corrected DIY or by a sailmaker; without this 'extra stored length' of boltrope its either a new sail or total reconstruction of the boltrope (expensive), with the 'extra' boltrope in place its a 1-2 hr. job for a sailmaker ---- IF and ONLY IF you have the original exact length of that original boltrope, or the precise dimension from headboard to tack, etc.

Summary -
High quality laminates - relatively short life, non-adjustability of shape; the shape you buy is the shape you get; light weight, requires careful 'rolling' (not folding).
Woven Dacron - EASILY adjustable over a wide range of wind strengths, long life, can be easily 'restored' to shape by adjustment of the the 'boltrope' (if there is extra boltrope length already in place and 'stored' and ready to be 'eased').

For any mainsail, Id usually recommend an 'over-the-top' leech line - allows leech tension to be also adjusted from the base of the mast/tack and no matter how deeply the mainsail is reefed. Reason - if your boom is well outboard and the leech is fluttering, with an over the top means to adjust, you WILL adjust the leech tension; a fluttering leech is the 'destroyer' of mainsails.

For 'cruisers', daysailors, and occasional 'racers', the best 'value' and 'adjustability of shape' still remains with 'quality' woven dacron. Add an extra/stored amount of boltrope, all ready to be 'eased' when the sail gets 'baggy' and youve just save the price of a 'new' sail.

Other options to add: for any sail -
2 full and 2 long battens .... two sets of battens, one for high winds (for draft forward shape) and another set for 'flat' sails for high speed sailing in 'flat' water.
Loose foot
For long distance cruising - all seams 'glued' AND triple stitched; small reinforcement patches where a panel seam comes in contact with the leech - where panels 'always' seem to first 'go'.

When buying any new sail, carefully describe to the sailmaker your 'honest' steering ability - carefree and inattentive or 'precise' (you use a long row of 'gentry tufts' to aid in precise steering, etc.), the typical wind/waves you sail in, if you 'race' even occasionally, empty boat or fully laden with cruising 'stuff', etc. etc. .... a 'good' sailmaker will match your new sail to your abilities, the winds/seastate in your venue.

FWIW - Most sailors dont really know how to *properly raise* their woven dacron mainsails they just 'get them up' and then have 'weather helm' etc. problems. Here's an article I wrote about proper 'hoist' for a dacron mainsail with a boltrope, and what to do about if that boltrope has become 'shorter and fatter' over time: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970 see post #1 in that thread.

Alansails · Nov 17, 2013

We have a Catalina 310 that was New in 2001 -Hull #155, we have just bought her this year and sailed her over the summer. We dropped the sails off to be checked/gone over by Our preferred loft- Doyle-Detroit at the end of the season.
We have bought sets of sails for our previous boats-Catalina 22 and Catalina 25 TR from Doyle and we have had nothing But the best of service from them, they are honest and competitive in pricing. If we need to replace our headsail it will probably be replaced with the Doyle Durasail Quick Silver but For the main I may just stay with The Durasail Dacron, which sails over the years have definitely come along way.