Sad News For Sailing.......

Old Skool Neil · Dec 11, 2013

Been there . . . .

I watched the decline of what at the time was very nearly the entire sailboat industry in the late seventies. It wasn't like the workforce moved on one employee at a time but more like the employment opportunities eroded away as the companies closed their doors.

My last position in the industry was as a purchasing agent so I had the additional displeasure of watching our vendor network wither away one by one too. Many of these were artisan or mom and pop businesses. It was absolutely heartbreaking.

Catalina was fine but Jensen, Ericson, Islander, Columbia/Coronado, Schock, Capital, Westsail, Yankee, Challenger, one by one all fell. Those listed were all within 30 miles of each other, most within 5 miles.

Joe · Dec 11, 2013

Old Skool Neil said:
Catalina was fine but Jensen, Ericson, Islander, Columbia/Coronado, Schock, Capital, Westsail, Yankee, Challenger, one by one all fell. Those listed were all within 30 miles of each other, most within 5 miles.

Uh... W.D.Schock is still very much in business. http://www.wdschock.com/index.php They moved the factory to Corona.

But those were the days.... The sweet smell of resing predominated your drive through Costa Mesa and parts of Irvine.

Old Skool Neil · Dec 12, 2013

Uh . . thanks for the correction Joe.

Columbia 'still' exists too although more like a reincarnation rather than surviving the times. The industry with a few notable exceptions is but a vestige of its former self. For example, at Columbia/Coronado we were producing roughly 25 boats a month, at Islander the production was closer to 35 boats a month, Jensen with three sailboat divisions at the same facility was around 40 or 50. Even Capital Yachts, a very small company in comparison with an employment of maybe 25 and their facility on a residential street in Harbor City produced around 12 boats monthly. Not counting Catalina, adding up those rough figures there were over 125 sailboats produced monthly in one small region of Southern California. Also note that for the most part I did not include the trailer sailor market. Things were really booming back then.

As for why the demise, the [subsequently removed political] comments oversimplify the reason. There were several pressures on the market including but not limited to:

As mentioned, luxury tax.
We were in the height of a petrochemical crunch that made discretionary consumer spending dry up almost overnight.
The same petrochemical crunch drove resin prices through the roof, also almost overnight. Dramatic cost increases weren't limited to resin either.
Poor cost accounting. Selling products at last year's prices but building them at this year's costs was a recipe for financial disaster.
California air pollution laws really tightened the screws on fiberglass manufacturing. Vacuum bagging had not yet been developed so the smell of production had the perception of polluting the air. Even though it was later determined that catalyzed processes 'locked up' the offending molecules rendering them inert, that was conveniently overlooked by the governing authorities.
Labor force pressures. Immigration authorities would conduct raids seemingly weekly. At one company where I worked we had an immigration attorney on retainer to unravel the constant mess. The very skilled laminating workforce was virtually all of Mexican heritage and many of them short on documentation.

That's how it was back then. I'm not suggesting the current developments with Sabre are in any way similar with the possible exception of the lack of available discretionary spending. Economic downturns always affect the big toys first.

Ariel · Dec 12, 2013

Thanks Neil for the thoughtful, well balanced review.

Dave
s/v ARIEL

Solstice · Dec 12, 2013

I had the opportunity to have lunch with Daniel, the CEO of Sabre this past summer after touring the factory and checking in on the progress of my friend's 48. I asked him why no more sailboats?
He said that in the past 5 years they had a total of 3 new orders and he simply couldn't keep the doors open and keep their employees busy. He also said in retrospect they should have done a better job of marketing beyond the East Coast.
In Sabre's case, it isn't the lack of discretionary spending that was the problem, it is the change in demographics--as knees and hips get replaced, many of these buyers are ex-sailors who choose to stay on the water with this style of boat. In my friend's case, he was diagnosed with Parkinson's at age 48, so he sold his business and he is currently on his way to the Bahamas in his beautiful Salon Express. Another good friend of mine is an accomplished world cruiser who regularly single handed his Skye 51, but at age 70 he also bought a Sabre 48.
Interestingly enough these boats don't come out of the factory for less than $1MM and are often outfitted closer to the $2MM range. When we were there in July, there were 6 48's on the line (none built to spec) and they have a different facility for their sub-40 range. They were just beginning to build the 52's and already had a 1 year backlog.
So in Sabre's case, it is about meeting the demands of a changing market. Hinckley is moving in the same direction as is J Boats (they make the MJM in our Boat Yard).
Main Sail's news however is sad as Daniel said he would keep the molds and build a sailboat for any customer that requested one. Sounds like it just wasn't worth being able to retool the line for sailboats any longer...
So the bigger question is what does this mean for us sailors longer term??

Chris Patterson · Dec 12, 2013

Neil, that was good insight man.

And you're correct in that every little downturn in the economy, a boat is the first thing on the block. It doesn't take a genius to figure when money's tight, toys go first. I too saw in the 70's the downturn at that time as well, but not anywhere near where Neil and some of you others deeply entrenched in the sailing industry have. Truth is, not only can I barely think of the seventies, when I do, it's too terrible to linger..

I think I have a thought on this newest sailing 'collapse' if you will. A recent thread popped up about this sort of thing, and I spent so much time thinking about it, I'm not sure I even threw in my two cents worth. (Some are going 'Thank God'). But it is the arrival of instant gratification. People want it all, and right this very second. Look around. A grown man can't even be seen nowadays in public without diddling with his i-toy. Everybody. And if this 'reality' is not working out for you, there's an app for that. Instantly. With 5 gigabytes of space to keep it. So go there now. It's much easier, (and safer), than planning a trip, loading the boat, and then actually using it. Slowly. There's yer problem. Why go for a slow sail later, when we can play the video game of it without getting wet, and potato chips that are not soggy. And people are damn lazy too. They don't want to build a boat, work on maintaining a boat, and don't want the trouble of operating a boat. So they buy one of these stinking monstrosities that float and has big motors. To get them there FAST.

Just an old fart/curmudgeons point of view. So the answer to the post that was written a few months back, Is Sailing Dead?

The answer is yes. Most emphatically. A resurgence? Doubtful in my opinion. Even if people could be 'educated' to understand that sailing doesn't have to be expensive, you can not fly down the ditch at seventy miles an hour on a sailboat. Which brings me to another point, one that I've repeated hundreds of times, that actually came from one of the most intelligent, worldly, insightful person that I've ever known. When asked why his living conditions were so isolated his response was, " It is my contention that the majority of the population are either stupid, and/or malicious". After carrying this thought for many years, I concur. And yes, I am one of them as well.

No folks, it ain't gonna get any better. Not any of it. We'll be relegated to the curious like the Amish on their buggies. The only thing that saves us from a certain and swift 'death' is the romanticism of the sailing boat. Or the illusion thereof. Maybe that's enough. That circus show in S.F. did not help one iota. It was a setback more than anything. Who out there has ever sailed a mono-hulled sailing boat over ten knots? (And yes, you longer wetter guys are thinking yes we do, but most boats by far will not). I'm still waiting for that time when I invite someone sailing and they show up in their hard-hat and knee-pads, or some variation of the garbage they wore on AC72.

Anyways, just rambling. Sorry for the bad 'news', ie

pinion.

I guess I would be comfortable being relegated to a fixture..

sailorhokie · Dec 12, 2013

I just can't get past destruction of the molds. Even if they weren't going to produce sailboats anymore, don't the molds have some value especially given Sabre's success over the years? Maybe someone would eventually resurrect the Sabre line. Does keeping the molds incur substantial cost? Mold destruction just seems like hammering in the nail to the coffin. I always enjoy the lines of the Sabre's.

As for sailing in general, it's definitely in a tough spot given the combination of the economic environment, robustness/cost effectiveness of older/used sailboats, shifting demographic/market (read: boomers). I am hoping that people will eventually recognize the uselessness of sitting around playing Angry Birds/Facebook all day and start looking for ways to enjoy the outdoors. The sailing industry will also need to innovate to survive, particularly new approaches to reduce production cost, not attracting new markets with AC-style speed. Sailing has a lot to offer as a hobby/lifestyle for both individuals and families. I'm always on the lookout on the Chesapeake for other young families with small kids who are sailing and mention it all the time to whoever will listen including non-sailors. They are generally surprised and curious so maybe there is hope.

Josh

Crazy Dave Condon · Dec 12, 2013

Neil;

This country has advanced so fast, I cannot for the life of me understand why the younger generation wants to play with those computer games and not enjoy the wonders of life outdoors. My wife and I like to hike and camp for this old fart. When I sailed privately and later as a dealer, it was in the outdoors. I use to ask my customers what would they do if the engine failed and batteries were drained while transiting the Chesapeake Bay at night. I use to carry a state hwy. road map and an am portable radio. The map had an insert of the Chesapeake Bay and I used the am radio to pick up the stations and would then triangulate that onto the insert of the Bay on the map and thus at least you knew where you were. That happened to me one time in fog in the lower Bay and I arrived within 1,000 feet of my mark at 3 am.

I love the outdoors and enjoy the simple life. The world has advanced to fast for me and look at the messes were are in. I relish the simpler life.

crazy dave

Old Skool Neil · Dec 12, 2013

Like I said, there are many layers for the demise. Another difference today compared to the 70's is the vast used boat market that was not available then. New boats today compete for the same dollars as the used ones. How many of us on this forum bought our boats new? I bet not many.

I wanted to comment on the destruction of the molds. Strangely it is done in part to preserve the integrity of the brand. A company builds their product to a certain standard, the good companies consider theirs a high standard and if they are no longer producing a certain model they don't even want the chance that someone else might produce it in the future where control of the quality is lost. This was the same reason for the reluctance to offer kit boats. Imagine an Island Packet built by a 'dock expert' in his back yard with parts from Home Depot. It devalues the entire brand. I notice there isn't a Yorktown owners forum here.

There may also be a contractural provision with the designer. When a new boat is developed a hull is painstakingly hand made, usually of wood and called a 'plug', and finished to perfection before a negative mold is made from it. After the mold is completed and usually after a handful of hulls are successfully produced the plug is destroyed. It is truly a sad thing to watch two forklifts on either side of a beautiful plug ram their forks into it reducing it to rubble.

The reason: the designer has a royalty agreement on every hull produced and his contract provides guaranties that there is no other tooling in existence. No more plug means no more molds.

If the Sabre molds for example** were sold years from now, even (Heaven forbid) at a bankruptcy auction all of a sudden there's the possibility that the designer's hulls could be produced without royalty requirements. The royalty agreement would not be sold with the tooling.

I do not know for certain but it would not surprise me in the least if the contract with the designer required the destruction of the molds after a predetermined time of non-production had elapsed.

** Example only. Do not interpret the example as a suggestion of Sabre's financial condition. The mention of Sabre was only because they are the topic of this thread. The mention of such an auction was only to suggest a mechanism of how control of tooling could change hands.

CCHer · Dec 12, 2013

As a counterpoint, The dealer from whom I bought my boat last fall sold 3 Beneteau 37's and a Beneteau 45 within a 3 month period. He's just the Virginia branch of the Annapolis Beneteau dealer-don't know how they did overall. Bene's price points are much, much lower than those of Sabre, Tartan, etc. as are the price points of Hunter and Catalina. So I think that may have a lot to do with it. The interior finishing of the Bene's can't come close to that of a Sabre, but its a well constructed boat with excellent sailing qualities. The interior has all of the utility of the more expensive boats, just not that nice teak joinery. My buddy's Tartan 3700, which was more than twice the price, has an interior like hand made furniture. Perhaps sailors willing to pay the premium for semi-production boats are drying up; could be that or perhaps Sabre simply fell down on marketing its product. In any case, I don't understand destroying the molds.

woodster · Dec 12, 2013

Crazy Dave Condon said:
Neil;

This country has advanced so fast, I cannot for the life of me understand why the younger generation wants to play with those computer games and not enjoy the wonders of life outdoors.

its in the fact that now days the advertising is pointed in that direction...think about it ...you see a lot more ads promoting theses things more than you do about any other activity and on the top of that they are young and don't have a clue yet of what has the most staying power in life ...and they are a very co dependent lot as well along with the fact that both parents have to work just to keep a roof over there heads and buy the gadgets that they use to keep up with there buddys......i am not saying that this is good for them .....but they don't have much to go on this day and time.....

regards

woody

Dunlookin · Dec 12, 2013

I Really Have Nothing Intelligent to Say...So...

I have always understood that I marched to a different drummer. While no one else heard the beat...it was clear and regular in my head.

When my friends went off to college after graduation, I joined the Army to jump out of airplanes and belong to an elite Ranger Battalion. To my suprise the men I served with heard the same drums that I heard and we recognized each other immediately.

Fast forward ten years and I was a senior noncommissioned officer. Kuwait was invaded and a number of my friends and I stepped forward to fight in the desert. As we flew into Iraq surrounded by the sounds of anti-aircraft artillery we looked at one another, nodded our heads, and rode to the sound of the guns.

Now, I am retired from the US Army. I have left rifle, shot and shell behind. It is the sound of the wind and the waves that has overtaken the beat of the drums I once marched to. When I look around me I see other sailors going slowly to where the winds take all of us. I am okay with that. If the breed is dying, and there will be one less when I am gone, I will still leave peacefully.

I never wanted to go over the cliff with the other lemmings. I wanted to be master of my own destiny, chart my own course, and be responsible for my own fate.

If there are fewer of us than there were...there are still some who bend the wind to thier will. We know each other not because of the mast on our boats....but, because how the movement of the wind has marked our hearts.

Now...bring me that horizon.

CCHer said:
As a counterpoint, The dealer from whom I bought my boat last fall sold 3 Beneteau 37's and a Beneteau 45 within a 3 month period. He's just the Virginia branch of the Annapolis Beneteau dealer-don't know how they did overall. Bene's price points are much, much lower than those of Sabre, Tartan, etc. as are the price points of Hunter and Catalina. So I think that may have a lot to do with it. The interior finishing of the Bene's can't come close to that of a Sabre, but its a well constructed boat with excellent sailing qualities. The interior has all of the utility of the more expensive boats, just not that nice teak joinery. My buddy's Tartan 3700, which was more than twice the price, has an interior like hand made furniture. Perhaps sailors willing to pay the premium for semi-production boats are drying up; could be that or perhaps Sabre simply fell down on marketing its product. In any case, I don't understand destroying the molds.

Old Skool Neil · Dec 12, 2013

CCHer said:
As a counterpoint, The dealer from whom I bought my boat last fall sold 3 Beneteau 37's and a Beneteau 45 within a 3 month period.

A manufacturer would need a network of dealers equally successful to maintain a decent production schedule. Using Islander's volume in comparison, Beneteau would need 26 dealers selling the same number of new products as your dealer all year long. And that's just one manufacturer.

When you put the numbers in perspective it shows what a booming industry this once was.

Dunlookin, it's about living life. You get it.

Gunni · Dec 12, 2013

I was really surprised when I walked the docks at the Annapolis fall show looking for my favorite boats and didn't find Sabre! These are great sailing boats.

But yes, the big production dealers have been taking Sabre's lunch money for years, convincing new sailors to buy way more boat than they need with the promise of putting them into charter to offset cost. They leverage the economy of scale for mass production, use cheaper disposable materials, lard on gizmos to help inexperienced, lightly crewed boats maneuver and sell a boat that will be a useless maintenance money pit in 7 years...when they will sell you another.

I suspect they cut up the molds because any future return of Sabre sailboats would include recent improvements to hull shape and volume.

wufibugs · Dec 12, 2013

Is it possible we are just seeing a reflection of the squeeze on the middle class? The builders of production boats survive because they sell a product that the middle class can afford. When I look at boat mags, I see quite a few upscale boat manufacturers plying their wares so I assume that market is doing quite well because it is aimed at those with vast disposable incomes. Competition for the shrinking disposable incomes of the middle class is fierce. Government is willing to subsidize housing via tax deductions, so most young people who buy homes are using considerably more of their income for shelter and transportation than ever before. Boating, on the other hand, is deemed a luxury and is severely penalized by the tax code as to marina/dockyard costs and boat ownership. At $4.50/gal for fuel and $15/ft slip fees, large power yachts are the playthings of the rich.
Unlike Europeans, Americans have relatively short vacations. To justify the slip fees and maintenance obligations of a 30+ foot sailboat, you have to use it more than a few weekends and a week a year [the other week is spent at Disneyland].
Finally, sailboats suck up maintenance like a sponge. If you don't cotton to working with your hands, this is an unwelcome chore and a large additional expense. Am I correct that fewer and fewer people have the time or interest to learn the skills required to do this? Seems like us old folks grew up with our faces under hoods and so on, whereas the increasing complexity of what we live with today discourages a hands on approach to life and encourages us to use the service economy that drives this country. I make no comment on whether this change in focus is good or bad, or what role the video game/TV industry is to blame. We are rarely able to predict the long range effects of technological and social changes [law of unintended consequences]. Who knew that WWII would forever change the role of women? Who could have predicted that us vision oriented mammals, would utterly succumb to the invention and perfection of the television, and that its progeny would irresistibly and forever change every aspect of our lives?

northptsailor · Dec 12, 2013

Perhaps,thirty or forty years ago, sailing, much like tennis, was more popular then it really should have been. Tennis was all over tv and they could not build indoor courts fast enough. Then people discovered that it takes a lot of time and effort to become proficient enough to really enjoy the game and people left the sport in droves. I think that the romance, beauty, and even apparent status of sailing attracted a great many people to buy boats. But as thier boats aged, and maintenance and operating costs increased, the people who never put the time and effort into the sport/hobby began to leave.
That process is still going on inspite of the efforts by the volume builders to market boats that require almost no skill to sail or maintain (self tacking, roller furling, joy stick docking, air conditioned, sailing motor homes). To me, the fact is that very few people have the desire and dedication to sail, and that's fine as long as I can still enjoy the things I have always found so rewarding about sailing.

ifmdalvey · Dec 12, 2013

As i understood their situation, they haven't produced a single sail boat this year, that decision being made last year. Just a pity that no other company could step forward and buy the molds to continue the processor producing lovely boats.

Rick486 · Dec 12, 2013

Sabres are sailboats of the 70's. Beautiful, well built, but very expensive and lacking in the amenities and the price points that sell the production boats of the 2000's. I traded in my 39 ft yawl on a 44 ft production boat and the broker told me that the old girl had maybe one more turnover in her life before she became unsellable. Back in the 70's and 80's nobody talked about electric heads, air conditioning, generators, walk through sterns, roller furling mains'ls, and so forth. Now boat buyers want all of the above (or at least their wives do).With the "...booming economy.." powerboats always sell better but try to sell a used SeaRay. They're giving them away.