I'm building a new rudder for my Venture 25 trailer sailor. I want to know what are the ups and downs between using a heavy wood and a light wood.
Learn me something, fellas.
Learn me something, fellas.
Rudder weight: Heavy or Light?
- Thread starter JoelHoover
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Rudder weight
I would think that you would want to keep the rudder as light as possible. Weight in the ends of the boat is not good for performance. Excess weight will increase the likelihood of pitching. If you are depending on the wood for all the strength, a hardwood is generally stronger and heavier. Laminating narrow planks of wood and alternating the orientation of the grain will increase strength and prevent warping. If you are going to build a rudder with an internal structural frame, consider using a high density foam core with fiberglass outer skin. The foam is easy to shape and is extremely lightweight. If your rudder is thin, foam will not be an option for those areas and pure fiberglass would be appropriate.
I would think that you would want to keep the rudder as light as possible. Weight in the ends of the boat is not good for performance. Excess weight will increase the likelihood of pitching. If you are depending on the wood for all the strength, a hardwood is generally stronger and heavier. Laminating narrow planks of wood and alternating the orientation of the grain will increase strength and prevent warping. If you are going to build a rudder with an internal structural frame, consider using a high density foam core with fiberglass outer skin. The foam is easy to shape and is extremely lightweight. If your rudder is thin, foam will not be an option for those areas and pure fiberglass would be appropriate.
Rudder play
Let see, balsa is very light and soft prone to damage, iron wood is very heavy, hard and almost indestructible. Other than that, why do you want to use wood?
Terry Cox
Let see, balsa is very light and soft prone to damage, iron wood is very heavy, hard and almost indestructible. Other than that, why do you want to use wood?
Terry Cox
Re: Rudder play
Within broad limits heavier equals stronger but then you must seek also duribility. Some rather light wood species are rather durable and some very heavy, strong, and very hard species are non durable. tell me more of what you are planning.
edited to correct a geezer moment.
Within broad limits heavier equals stronger but then you must seek also duribility. Some rather light wood species are rather durable and some very heavy, strong, and very hard species are non durable. tell me more of what you are planning.
edited to correct a geezer moment.
Joel, have you looked at this article http://www.mothboat.com/CMBA/Building/foils.htm Gougeon Bros. recommend cedar or redwood, clear straight grain redwood is easy to find in L.A., cedar, not so much. Also check out the I550 website (shameless plug) http://www.i550.org/ you have to register, but there is a whole section on rudders and keels, with info on wood, foam, carbon fiber etc. foils. Tim
Re: Ok...
Joel, Foam and high density are not often found in the same sentence. Perlite and resin might fit or micro spheres and resin. Some of the hard cedars and the red wood/douglas fir groups would fit as light weight and strong. Imersed in water all of our native woods float so weight realy isn't a problem. You will need to drill the rudder and install bolts to hold the staves together and to attach them to the rudder stock.
Joel, Foam and high density are not often found in the same sentence. Perlite and resin might fit or micro spheres and resin. Some of the hard cedars and the red wood/douglas fir groups would fit as light weight and strong. Imersed in water all of our native woods float so weight realy isn't a problem. You will need to drill the rudder and install bolts to hold the staves together and to attach them to the rudder stock.
Why not incorporate more than one species of wood. Cedar,fir,Mahogany, redwood all in one rudder? I Use all types of wood every day at work and one board to the next in the same species can have a big difference in weight. Fir is stable and strong and some boards are light. Not easy to work with though. Find a good source of lumber and ask the lumber yard if you can pick through. I think cedar would be best. I will be using eastern cedar, mixing in some African mahogany for strength and weight. TIM
I have owned two sailboats that had wood rurrers. One was a 24' windrose that I broke the lower swing section completely off the boat in moderate wind out of Long Beach. The other was a 1971 Venture that had the lower swing section riipped off while sailing to Anacapa Island in a 15 knot wind. Both created a hazard that I don't want to go through again. My money is on a metal or fiberglass lower section. I ended up buying a ready made rudder. My advice is to buy a sturdy new fiberglass one and save your self grief if you sail in any winds over 10 knots.
Novelman
Novelman
If you build a wood rudder correctly, You should be laying fiberglass over the wood anyway making the wood part the core adding extra strength and support for the Glass. Why would a glass rudder with a foam or hallow core be better or stronger?
new rudder
why use wood. that should be your last choice. It rots, It breaks. Fiberglass or aluminum is the way to go
why use wood. that should be your last choice. It rots, It breaks. Fiberglass or aluminum is the way to go
Re: new rudder
I would probably use wood for the core of an epoxy/glass rudder were I to build one. Wood is easy to shape, can be very strong, and very durable. Locust fence posts often live longer than the man that sets them. We are discussing replacement rudders so whatever was used the first time did not endure.
I would probably use wood for the core of an epoxy/glass rudder were I to build one. Wood is easy to shape, can be very strong, and very durable. Locust fence posts often live longer than the man that sets them. We are discussing replacement rudders so whatever was used the first time did not endure.
Why not buy one form people that does this for a living.
http://idasailor.com/catalog/default.php
I bought one from them and introduced it to 2 other members in our club. All very happy with the product.
http://idasailor.com/catalog/default.php
I bought one from them and introduced it to 2 other members in our club. All very happy with the product.
I F'n love you guys and all of your replies.
Timo - awesome link! that is probably the way I will go.
Ross - cedar sounds great, smells good too! I am lucky that I have my old rudder and all of the brackets, bolts, widgets, ding-dongs, and chocodiles.
Phoebe/Tim - if I lived in Rivendell, and had eternal life, then yes, I would build the most magnificent boat out of many woods, gems, and Elven magic, but I am just a poor hobbit with a broken boat that needs to be fixed by second breakfast.
Novelman - my rudder busted in the same spot, 1 mile outside of the Long Beach breakwater, 15-20mph winds, split right at the hinge. I don't need a swing rudder. I just want a solid piece of something that won't have me shooting flares at oil tankers and calling vessel assist.
Alexco - the Ida Sailor rudder is quite impressive. I drooled a bit. Ok, I drooled alot. But the $869.00 price tag is a bit excessive. It interferes with my Beneteau fund
My first mate is good with wood (he makes longboards). After getting everybody's input, I am confident that we can make something that will work better than the stock rudder. We are going to take a trip to Minnie's and some of the sailboat junkyards in Long Beach/San Pedro before we make any purchases at Lowe's.
Thanks again guys,
-Joel
Timo - awesome link! that is probably the way I will go.
Ross - cedar sounds great, smells good too! I am lucky that I have my old rudder and all of the brackets, bolts, widgets, ding-dongs, and chocodiles.
Phoebe/Tim - if I lived in Rivendell, and had eternal life, then yes, I would build the most magnificent boat out of many woods, gems, and Elven magic, but I am just a poor hobbit with a broken boat that needs to be fixed by second breakfast.
Novelman - my rudder busted in the same spot, 1 mile outside of the Long Beach breakwater, 15-20mph winds, split right at the hinge. I don't need a swing rudder. I just want a solid piece of something that won't have me shooting flares at oil tankers and calling vessel assist.
Alexco - the Ida Sailor rudder is quite impressive. I drooled a bit. Ok, I drooled alot. But the $869.00 price tag is a bit excessive. It interferes with my Beneteau fund
My first mate is good with wood (he makes longboards). After getting everybody's input, I am confident that we can make something that will work better than the stock rudder. We are going to take a trip to Minnie's and some of the sailboat junkyards in Long Beach/San Pedro before we make any purchases at Lowe's.
Thanks again guys,
-Joel
You may have better luck for redwood at Ganahl Lumber rather than Lowes, they also have cedar but I didn't have much luck finding clear boards, Ida does sell just the blade for $400 to fit your upper. I have the fancy one from them, well worth the money imho, fixed the excessive weatherhelm of the stock design, and it does look cool:2cool:
The question of of weight (heavy or light) is not the correct question !!! Rather, the question should be ... whats the best material combination so that the rudder has NEUTRAL buoyancy.
A rudder that floats (positive buoyancy) will raise/float-up so that the rudder may hit the bottom of the hull ... or if a pivoting type will keep 'kicking up' ... or may float off its pintles if the rudder is transom mounted.
A rudder that has a great deal of negative buoyancy will tend to transmit a lot of force into the pintles or rudder bearings, etc.
What you want is a rudder that has essentially 'neutral buoyancy' (or slight negative buoyancy) ... no matter what the rudder 'weighs' and no matter what its made of.
A rudder that floats (positive buoyancy) will raise/float-up so that the rudder may hit the bottom of the hull ... or if a pivoting type will keep 'kicking up' ... or may float off its pintles if the rudder is transom mounted.
A rudder that has a great deal of negative buoyancy will tend to transmit a lot of force into the pintles or rudder bearings, etc.
What you want is a rudder that has essentially 'neutral buoyancy' (or slight negative buoyancy) ... no matter what the rudder 'weighs' and no matter what its made of.
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