Rope or foam luff

[David W]

Hi all, I am in the market for new sails and need some opinions on arope luff or a foam luff for furling headsails.We are looking at a 150% genoa and have been told by my local UK loft that rope is not great while Cruising Direct uses ropes luffs. Any opinions?Thanks,David

 

[Ellis Rogers]

Roller furler luff

I assume that you are talking about the different size luff tapes used in different furlers. I had a foam luff added to my furling headsail last year and it made a major difference in the shape of the sail when partially furled. This is the difference between the two sailmakers.

 

[John Nantz]

What About Neither???

Actually, I'm kinda venting a bit. When I got a new 110 the question came up whether it should be a reefing jib or not. Given the number of times in the past that I had to reef it in a bit the idea seemed like a good one. Few extra bucks but what the hey - it's a boat, and besides, being able to dial in a reduced sail sounded good. And besides, you really don't want to go changing down to the storm jib when things are really nasty so we went with it. I opted for foam in this case for easier folding.Now the years have gone by (about seven of them) and I can't recall ever using the reefing option! Don't know why - maybe I'm staying in the harbor more often if the forcast looks bad, or maybe the jib has a flatter cut than the original one, or maybe both. Anyway, if I had to do it over again I wouldn't.The argument against foam was mold and mildew (haven't had any - see picture at http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/fpix.tpl?xfno=122&uid=F&rid=2005327111445.21 , and that it could/would get hard (don't think it's changed any). On the other hand I take the sail off for the winter so that eliminates about half the year of exposure to elements. The loft (North) seemed to be trying to steer me toward rope but in the final analysis it was really my decision.The 150 is a little different story though because you're really looking at light air which can have a good probability of becoming stronger so this might be a different story.If you decide to go the foam/rope option for a reefing jib then be sure to go with heavier sail cloth so the sail doesn't get blown out so quickly. One of the killers of 150s in my opinion is those periods of intense winds you get when the wind is funneled around land masses and you have a lot of them there. Looking ahead you can see flatter water so you say to yourself "If only I can make it through this area it'll be okay." and that's the kind of winds that wind up overloading the sail and ultimately blowing it out. With the stronger winds that are more spread out the skipper will most likely change headsails. Being next to Haro(ing) Strait it's easy to see what's out there, especially at high tide.From a mold/mildew perspective, I don't think Sidney get's as much as we do so that's a real positive.The 150 is a great sail to have but something to also consider, if you don't have one already, is an asymetric. A big advantage of the asymetric is you don't have to change headsails but they aren't as good for going upwind like the 150 is.New sail - ohhh so nice!

 

[David W]

We have both a 110% and an asymmetrical

So we are covered there. You are bang on about the need to just reduce a bit to get around a headland or the like. We have a masthead rig so a 150% genny is huge.Other Crown 34 owners have found that when the going gets rough, two reefs in the main and bringing the genny down to about 130% is good to about 25-30 kts. After that other it means getting rid of the 150% and putting up some handkerchiefs!CheersDavid

 

[RichH]

Usual answer .... go for a foam luff

Also consider to add chafe patches at the leech and foot at the section that you usually reef to. For a 150% that would be at about 105% (maximum reef roll without becoming baggy).Rope added to help furl/reef are simply 'cheap' Also, check with your sailmaker who depending on the size of the boat, sail material selected, and how taught you carry the backstay/forestay, he/she may be able to cut you a genoa that doesnt need a foam luff ... all depends on sail size and plotting program, backstay tension, etc. For 'plain vanilla' go with a foam luffHope this helps.

 

[r.w.landau]

Foam?

I have a 155 on my O'day 25. I endup reefing it fairly often in spring and fall. However, sail shape is not that important if you have to reef. My Genny has a foam luff. I have found that if you go forward while sailing in light wind, You will see that the luff tape and the foam have a memory. My sail furls in a clockwise direction while looking at it from the cockpit.So, while the sail is unfurled, on a starboard tack, it shapes wonderfully. However, while sailing on a Port tack unfurled, there is a hook ( in the sail shape) that occurs in the luff tape and foam. I believe that my boat is not as fast on a port tack as it is on a starboard tack.If you reef your sail to say 100 from 150, the wind will tighten the wraps that already exist. If I reef to 100, the wind will tighten the already furled sail so that in 30 minutes I will be sailing with about a 120+ sail. So, when I reef, I reef short and let the wind bring it to the % that I am looking for.My next head sail will have no foam.r.w.landau

 

[David W]

Essentially we have roller furling

not roller reefing with our current sails. Recognizing that they are old and blown out, I only consider reefing them if we are beam or broad reaching. Upwind they have no shape at all. I don't know if taking a 150 to a 100 is realistic. Perhaps, 135 or 130 but 100 to me seems like asking to much.IMHO

 

[Bob]

Purpose of foam

As I understand it, the purpose of the foam is to "fill" the furl along the luff so that the rolls are relatively even - if it weren't there, the sail would wrinkle and bunch and not roll up as evenly. So without the foam, wouldn't the sail have an even worse luff shape when partially furled, and wouldn't it develop worse and more permanent wrinkles?

 

[chuckwayne]

foam luff

the purpose of the foam, and the rope, is to make the roll in the center fatter so that as you roll the sail it pulls draft out of the sail, making the reefed sail flatter-a better shape in heavy winds. the rope will do it, but the foam makes a much smoother roll and is well worth the money

 

[John Nantz]

David W - Consider Smaller Jib???

David - if you already have an asymetrical would you consider something smaller than a 150? Like, say, something in the 120 to 135% range? Our boat is a 7/8ths rig with a 110 and it works very well up into the low 20s. I know the Crown is a fairly heavy boat compared to ours (35ft and 12,600# w/ Max Prop) but a 150 on a masthead seems like a lot of sail to me. What are your thoughts? Have you discussed percentage with a sailmaker yet? Do the other Crowns feel the 150 is needed?Another advantage to a smaller jib is there less line to haul in when tacking.

 

[RichH]

David W ...

typically the maximum reefing reduction attainable with a foam luff and roller reefing is about 30%, beyond 30% the sail becomes quite baggy in the mid section. 150 X (1 - .30) = 105%There are some 'tricks' to gain more reduction (upwards of 50% reduction) such as having the luff not connect the foil at about 15% of distance from the top and bottom ... but that results in a wierd luff shape when the sail is totally unfurled and has a lot of winch load on the clew.

 

[r.w.landau]

Bob, The foam is foam and it

compresses. In heavy weather, even with foam, the sail continually snugs up on the foil and the foam is compressed and still misforms the genny. However, in light weather the foam works quite well. but why would you furl in light weather.David, my point is that if you have to reef, the sail shape does not need to be optimal. If the sail is still moving the boat a hull speed what more do you need? If you are worried about how the sail looks, you need to use a smaller genny that reefs later.I think John Nantz is right. I think you need to think about a smaller head sail. A 135 is a nice size and is not only better in heavier weather, it will actually shape well in light air when an all purpose 150 is heavy enough (in the leech) that is will not shape well in light wind.r.w.landau

 

[David W]

Thanks guys...

I am going to talk to him about a 135%.John actually we displace less than you. We are only 10,500 lbs.R.W. the shape is a concern to me when beating, which is what we always seem to be doing when it pipes up.

 

[John Nantz]

Diminishing Returns

After reading Landau's post it makes me thing of another issue and that's backwinding. One problem with large gennys can be backwinding of the main which is not the most aerodynamic situation. Basically, then, there is a point of diminishing return as one increases the jib size.With a smaller jib one can go with a heavier cloth (actually, needs a heavier cloth) which should last longer before getting stretched out of shape - a plus.RichH mentioned about the 30% reduction in area and that appears to be more-or-less a standard rule of thumb, but then that's a fairly good reduction in area.

 

[John Nantz]

Ummmm, lighter eh?

Okay, so you're more on the performance end eh? That's a different boat than what I was thinking of. In that case....Being performance oriented then... one of the downsides to either the foam or rope luff is that it messes up your telltails on the luff. If you want performance you gota have telltails that fly properly or you're going to get really frustrated.10,500#.... that's nice. Just checked YachtWorld to see what they look like - nice boat. 6'-5" fin with lots of handholds on the inside. The one I looked at is in Victoria and has a 165, light 155, and a heavy 135 so I can see why you were looking at the 150. It also has an adjustable backstay and with this sail inventory the boat is obviously set up for racing.from the description:"She is a cruising vessel for the sailor who truly appreciates an honestly built solid vessel with finely appointed functional cruising accommodation in a package that really performs - this boat is a delight to sail - she is a "sailor's sailboat!"and I agree - looks like a really nice boat.

 

[RichH]

LUff tell tales ......

The stability of the luff tell tales are many times due to the 'cut' of the luff section on the sail. A 'racing cut' sail has a reletively flat 'entry' or leading edge section that will require *precise* helm control steering as such a sail will only have a very narrow operating range for its angle of attack - maybe 'just a few degrees'. Steered just a few degrees from the optimal angle of attack such a sail willl easily develop stagnation/separation problems showing up as tell tale instability. In stark contrast, 'cruising cut' entry section will be 'more rounded' (forgiving) and can be steered 'all over the map' without flow separation problems, but with the penalty of being a much slower and less efficient sail. There is a BIG difference between a 'racing cut' sail and a 'cruising cut' sail in the way they behave and precision needed to steer to keep the airstream properly flowing across them. A racing sail needs precise steering to hold the angle of attack constant within a few degrees; a cruising cut sail will allow sloppy and inattentive steering ... with little change in how the tell tales are behaving. Since air flow streams dont like to 'turn corners' (promotes separation) the larger the 'roll' on the foil, the greater potential for such instability. With regard to roller reefing/furling, that fat rolled section will /may generate turbulence at the leading edge at the luff and this will make the tell tales be either in the wind shadow of the rolled portion of the sail or in a zone of 'separated' flow. Its a good idea with a roller furling/reefing jib/genoa to apply a long 'row' of tell tales so that as the luff is rolled up that one can always have tell tales exposed and simply ignore the 'bad flow' that may be occuring at the leading edge section.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Furling...

Some years ago, I read an article by world cruiser Webb Chiles stating how he would furl up his big headsails to very small sizes when the conditions required it. His article suggested that the rule of thumb that you could only roll up say a 150 by 30 per cent was not correct, at least in his case. As a result of that article, I've experimented with rolling up the foam luff on my 150 genoa to every size imaginable. I still get decent performance even when the sail is furled to far less than a 100 per cent sail. The higher the wind, the tighter the sail furls up and, even though you certainly have more bulk at the luff, the higher winds seem to compensate for it. This of course is not a good racing stategy, but it certainly works well for me when cruising and the winds kick up and I still want some slot.

 

[David W]

Hi all, great posts!

which have given me a lot to think about. Yes the Crown 34 aka San Juan 34 is a fairly quick boat even for today. PHRFs range from the low 130's to the 150's. Their upwind abilty with nice new sails...) is a bit of a local phenomenon, as they are quite fast upwind.They are not terribly tender boats so in a puff they just dig in and go as opposed to heeling more.