Hi Peggy, Due to more and more no discharge zones, I'm replacing a LectraSan with a Vacuflush system on my classic Rhodes Reliant. I've made a mockup for a tank, which will be about 30 gallons. We will use the recommended fresh water flush. I am guessing we will be discharging the tank overboard (outside the 3 mile line) most of the time, as we don't come to docks very often. Sometimes the boat sits for weeks or maybe more without use. I wonder whether sludge/solid buildup in the bottom of the tank is a potential problem. I've been thinking of installing a dedicated deck-wash pump, using the former sea-water intake for the head. The pump would be connected to nozzels on the top of the tank, so that it would be easy to spray the bottom of the tank and flush it (with seawater) after discharge of sewage. Is this a realistic concern and a good plan? Also, with a vacuflush system with fresh water, do I need to follow your recommendations for an elaborate venting system? Sealand recommends a simple vent, through a filter. Many thanks, Ben Stavis ben.stavis@verizon.net
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Why not just add a tank? IF you even need one...
There's no reason to replace the toilet--or even remove the L/S--just to add a holding tank to your existing system. So why spend over $2000 for a VacuFlush toilet plus a tank (which is all the the VacuFlush "system" is...they just package the toilet, tank, vent filter and overboard discharge pump and call it a "system")--especially on a boat that spends more time sitting than with anyone aboard. Who have you been talking to who's convinced you that more and more waters are becoming "no discharge?" There are actually very few new ones--mostly inland or very small harbors, and very few news ones in the works. How many new ones have you found while cruising in the last two years? You went to the Annapolis boat show didn't you...and let the SeaLand people talk you into this...right? SeaLand is dedicated to making all the waters of this country "no discharge." Their people will say ANYthing to talk a boat owner into getting rid of a Lectra/San--even outright lies. They've told people it won't work with a VacuFlush toilet...told 'em that a body of water that is not "no discharge" is about to be (they've been telling people on the Chesapeake that for years, and it hasn't happened yet, nor is there any plan to make the Bay "no discharge")...the list of the lies and scare tactics they've used to sell their "system" is endless. If you do this, you'll be creating more problems for yourself than you'll solve...'cuz the vacuum tank and pump or combination "vacuum generator" will need more room below decks than your L/S...so you won't gain any room for a tank big enough to be worth the cost to install it, you'll only lose more storage space...instead of being able to flush waste out of sight, out of mind, now you'll have a tank to maintain...vent filters, especially on a sailboat are a very bad idea because not only do they block the air flow needed to keep the tank contents aerobic--and therefore odorless--but they only last a season at most, and are "toast" if they get wet, which happens a lot on sailboats due to waste running out the vent while heeled, and cost upwards of $50 ea to replace. If it's time to replace or upgrade your toilet, there are a whole bunch of toilets designed to use pressurized flush water--and very little of it--and offer every other advantage the VacuFlush does plus some it doesn't, for a fraction of the price...which would solve any intake odor problems that develop while the boat sits, but doesn't make a bit of difference in the holding tank...and the intake odor problem can be solved with a piece of hose and a tee fitting. As for any environmental advantage to holding tanks over a L/S...just ONE illegally--or even legally--dumped tank has more negative environmental impact on the immediate surrounding waters than 1000 boats all equipped with Lectra/Sans sitting in the same place could do in 24 hours. You already have the ideal system...unless you don't also already have a small holding tank for use in the few "no discharge" harbors you're likely to visit, you may need to add one--but that doesn't require pulling out the L/S. And ok, maybe you do need a new toilet...but WHY would you want to spend over $2k for the "privilege" of being forced to carry waste around ALL the time--and most likely end up having to dump the tank illegally sometimes because you can't find a working pumpout...AND be forced to deal with never-ending holding tank maintenance and odor control issues...if you don't have to???
There's no reason to replace the toilet--or even remove the L/S--just to add a holding tank to your existing system. So why spend over $2000 for a VacuFlush toilet plus a tank (which is all the the VacuFlush "system" is...they just package the toilet, tank, vent filter and overboard discharge pump and call it a "system")--especially on a boat that spends more time sitting than with anyone aboard. Who have you been talking to who's convinced you that more and more waters are becoming "no discharge?" There are actually very few new ones--mostly inland or very small harbors, and very few news ones in the works. How many new ones have you found while cruising in the last two years? You went to the Annapolis boat show didn't you...and let the SeaLand people talk you into this...right? SeaLand is dedicated to making all the waters of this country "no discharge." Their people will say ANYthing to talk a boat owner into getting rid of a Lectra/San--even outright lies. They've told people it won't work with a VacuFlush toilet...told 'em that a body of water that is not "no discharge" is about to be (they've been telling people on the Chesapeake that for years, and it hasn't happened yet, nor is there any plan to make the Bay "no discharge")...the list of the lies and scare tactics they've used to sell their "system" is endless. If you do this, you'll be creating more problems for yourself than you'll solve...'cuz the vacuum tank and pump or combination "vacuum generator" will need more room below decks than your L/S...so you won't gain any room for a tank big enough to be worth the cost to install it, you'll only lose more storage space...instead of being able to flush waste out of sight, out of mind, now you'll have a tank to maintain...vent filters, especially on a sailboat are a very bad idea because not only do they block the air flow needed to keep the tank contents aerobic--and therefore odorless--but they only last a season at most, and are "toast" if they get wet, which happens a lot on sailboats due to waste running out the vent while heeled, and cost upwards of $50 ea to replace. If it's time to replace or upgrade your toilet, there are a whole bunch of toilets designed to use pressurized flush water--and very little of it--and offer every other advantage the VacuFlush does plus some it doesn't, for a fraction of the price...which would solve any intake odor problems that develop while the boat sits, but doesn't make a bit of difference in the holding tank...and the intake odor problem can be solved with a piece of hose and a tee fitting. As for any environmental advantage to holding tanks over a L/S...just ONE illegally--or even legally--dumped tank has more negative environmental impact on the immediate surrounding waters than 1000 boats all equipped with Lectra/Sans sitting in the same place could do in 24 hours. You already have the ideal system...unless you don't also already have a small holding tank for use in the few "no discharge" harbors you're likely to visit, you may need to add one--but that doesn't require pulling out the L/S. And ok, maybe you do need a new toilet...but WHY would you want to spend over $2k for the "privilege" of being forced to carry waste around ALL the time--and most likely end up having to dump the tank illegally sometimes because you can't find a working pumpout...AND be forced to deal with never-ending holding tank maintenance and odor control issues...if you don't have to???
Thanks, Peggy
Peggy, Thanks for your thoughful comments. We spend much of the summer in Block Island Great Salt Pond, which is properly a no discharge area. Nantuck Harbor ditto. At Vinyard Haven, the public beach is but a few hundred feet from the mooring area, and the inner pond is properly no discharge. All Naragansett Bay is no discharge. What really disturbed me was the classification of Stonington harbor, which we use a lot, as no discharge -- because this harbor is open to the sea with a good tidal flush. It became obvious that we are dealing with real estate political insterests, not a just a serious analysis of sewage and environmental dynamics. This past summer we just spent too much time each day discussing who would take the dinghy ashore first in the morning, who who could wait for the second trip, who could use the porta-potty. Especially with guests unfamiliar with the provisions of the Clean water Act and with marine plumbing, the discussions went on and on. Needless to say, there is no great urge to share the joys of dumping the porty potty ashore in a toilet or offshore -- I always get that job. I just decided that I didn't want to spend so much time talking about normal body functions-- I want to let the crew and guests do their toilet stuff in the morning without a lot of discussion and fuss and simply call over the pump-out boat every couple of days. As for the Lectra-San, I know it is Coast Guard approved and supposedly environmentally sound. I also know that when I pump it out each winter, even after much flushing and rinsing, the contents are really foul, even after being diluted many times. My understanding from users, not salesmen, is that vacuflush uses less water for flushing and therefore the holding tank will fill up more slowly. Also I think the vacuum will suck sewage out of the hoses, so there will be fewer problems of smell from that source. My previous L/S installation had lots of hoses that were constantly filled with sewage. I very much regret the loss of some storage space in the new installation, but I am managing to save at least some of the critical locker space in the head. We'll manage. I'm certainly saving my old reliable bronze Wilcox-Critten 40 year old head, that has worked so well and is still in excellent condition; and I'm saving the Lectra-San, just in case regulations change again; but I think regulations will get tighter, not more lax, at least in this region. So I want to do this new installation carefully, to minimize the potential problems, to make it as simple as possible to pump out, clean it, etc. Ben Stavis
Peggy, Thanks for your thoughful comments. We spend much of the summer in Block Island Great Salt Pond, which is properly a no discharge area. Nantuck Harbor ditto. At Vinyard Haven, the public beach is but a few hundred feet from the mooring area, and the inner pond is properly no discharge. All Naragansett Bay is no discharge. What really disturbed me was the classification of Stonington harbor, which we use a lot, as no discharge -- because this harbor is open to the sea with a good tidal flush. It became obvious that we are dealing with real estate political insterests, not a just a serious analysis of sewage and environmental dynamics. This past summer we just spent too much time each day discussing who would take the dinghy ashore first in the morning, who who could wait for the second trip, who could use the porta-potty. Especially with guests unfamiliar with the provisions of the Clean water Act and with marine plumbing, the discussions went on and on. Needless to say, there is no great urge to share the joys of dumping the porty potty ashore in a toilet or offshore -- I always get that job. I just decided that I didn't want to spend so much time talking about normal body functions-- I want to let the crew and guests do their toilet stuff in the morning without a lot of discussion and fuss and simply call over the pump-out boat every couple of days. As for the Lectra-San, I know it is Coast Guard approved and supposedly environmentally sound. I also know that when I pump it out each winter, even after much flushing and rinsing, the contents are really foul, even after being diluted many times. My understanding from users, not salesmen, is that vacuflush uses less water for flushing and therefore the holding tank will fill up more slowly. Also I think the vacuum will suck sewage out of the hoses, so there will be fewer problems of smell from that source. My previous L/S installation had lots of hoses that were constantly filled with sewage. I very much regret the loss of some storage space in the new installation, but I am managing to save at least some of the critical locker space in the head. We'll manage. I'm certainly saving my old reliable bronze Wilcox-Critten 40 year old head, that has worked so well and is still in excellent condition; and I'm saving the Lectra-San, just in case regulations change again; but I think regulations will get tighter, not more lax, at least in this region. So I want to do this new installation carefully, to minimize the potential problems, to make it as simple as possible to pump out, clean it, etc. Ben Stavis
Ben..We have vaccu-flush on our boat, and are very
happy. We made the decision to go with vaccu-flush for many of the same reasons you described. My only suggestion is, if you haven't purchased your unit yet, is that you get the new smaller pump unit. It has all the power of the larger unit and is considerably quieter. It is so small that it fit completely under the seat at the chart table on our Catalina 470. If you would like to see some shots of the unit installed I would be happy to e-mail them to you. I'm leaving for the boat for a week today, so if you want to see the shots contact me at dickmckee119@hotmail.com. Dick McKee S/V ONE9TEEN
happy. We made the decision to go with vaccu-flush for many of the same reasons you described. My only suggestion is, if you haven't purchased your unit yet, is that you get the new smaller pump unit. It has all the power of the larger unit and is considerably quieter. It is so small that it fit completely under the seat at the chart table on our Catalina 470. If you would like to see some shots of the unit installed I would be happy to e-mail them to you. I'm leaving for the boat for a week today, so if you want to see the shots contact me at dickmckee119@hotmail.com. Dick McKee S/V ONE9TEEN
Ok...you DO need to add a tank for the areas
you're spending most of your time--the only ND waters of any size except the FL Keys on the whole east coast.
However, you don't have to replace your toilet to keep flush water consumption as low, or even lower, than the amount the Vacuflush actually needs. One of the best things about a manual toilet is the user's ability to control the amount of flush water going through it. Most people don't realize that any manual toilet that's working even close to factory specs can move bowl contents at least 6' in the "dry" mode...so they OVER-use the "wet" mode...they rarely even use the "dry" mode except to pump the last remaining flush water out of the bowl--which fills up a tank with flush wate very quickly. In fact, it's only necessary to use the wet mode to wet the bowl ahead of use and rinse out the bowl and head discharge hose AFTER pumping the bowl contents all the way to the tank. When closing up the boat, after closing the secocks, a couple of quarts of clean fresh water poured into the bowl and flushed through, followed by a cupful of white vinegar--also flushed all the way through--is all that's needed to keep the head discharge hose clean. And teeing your head sink drain into the the head intake line will also allow you to rinse the sea water out of the head intake by simply closing the the intake seacock, filling the sink with water and flushing the toilet. The V/Flush, otoh, has no "dry bowl" capability...and it needs more water than most people think it does to prevent the pump from becoming clogged by solids and TP. They claim it CAN use "as little as" 1 pint/flush...but the directions call for keeping the pedal down at least 3 full seconds after urine only--at least 7 seconds after solids or any TP--to rinse out the vacuum pump...otherwise it can build up around the bellows in the pump and clog it. The suction also has the opposite effect from what you think it does...it splatters waste all over the inside of the hose and vacuum tank, and the flush water volume isn't enough to complete to fill the hose to rinse it out...so permeated hoses are actually MORE common than with other toilets, and the reason SeaLand won't warranty the system if any hose but theirs is used. To prevent it, it's necessary to fill the bowl completely with water and flush it through at least once a week--and especially before the boat is to sit--to completely rinse all the waste out of the system. So replacing your toilet isn't necessary to conserve tank space (nor will there be any other reason for at least another 50-60 years...that toilet is built to last at least 100 years with decent maintenance)...nor is it necessary to sacrifice more than a gallon of your fresh water to keeping your hoses clean. I'm not knocking the V/flush, btw...my last two boats had VacuFlush toilets, and I liked it. It's just not quite the ultimate--or even necessary--solution to maximizing holding tank space and/or permeated hoses that SeaLand claims it is. Nor is it necessary to spend $2k+ to have every advtantage it offers except "step on the pedal" convenience instead of pumping by hand--especially on a boat that you've already said spends more time sitting than in use. If you were a live-aboard, or used your boat every weekend, it might be worth it...but for your use, I just can't see it. IMO, all you really need to do is add a tank or replace your Lectra/San with one. At least consider doing that before committing to spending that much money? Your best source for a tank is Ronco Plastics http://www.ronco-plastics.com They make TOP quality, thick-walled tanks (in fact, they make tanks for SeaLand) for a very reasonable price...more than 400 shapes and sizes, including over 100 that are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes/locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. Find a location within 6' of the toilet, specify a 1" vent to keep it aerobic...and use either K.O. or Odorlos in it...you won't ever have any odor OR sludge problems, even when the boat sits. The SeaLand T-Series pump (same one they package with the V/flush "system") is the best overboard discharge pump...it's a diaphragm pump that, unlike an impeller macerator, can run dry without harm and will work without problems--even after sitting for a long while--for years. If you have to pull the Lectra/San out, I wouldn't store it...the rubber parts will just deteriorate...lubrication in the motors will settle and cease to provide any protection from corrosion. Sell it on eBay...used ones fetch ridiculously high prices--at least enough to pay for a tank. Or someone here may want it. All of the above said, it IS your boat. I've made my case...but if you still want to spend that much money to gain very little, it's up to you.
you're spending most of your time--the only ND waters of any size except the FL Keys on the whole east coast.
However, you don't have to replace your toilet to keep flush water consumption as low, or even lower, than the amount the Vacuflush actually needs. One of the best things about a manual toilet is the user's ability to control the amount of flush water going through it. Most people don't realize that any manual toilet that's working even close to factory specs can move bowl contents at least 6' in the "dry" mode...so they OVER-use the "wet" mode...they rarely even use the "dry" mode except to pump the last remaining flush water out of the bowl--which fills up a tank with flush wate very quickly. In fact, it's only necessary to use the wet mode to wet the bowl ahead of use and rinse out the bowl and head discharge hose AFTER pumping the bowl contents all the way to the tank. When closing up the boat, after closing the secocks, a couple of quarts of clean fresh water poured into the bowl and flushed through, followed by a cupful of white vinegar--also flushed all the way through--is all that's needed to keep the head discharge hose clean. And teeing your head sink drain into the the head intake line will also allow you to rinse the sea water out of the head intake by simply closing the the intake seacock, filling the sink with water and flushing the toilet. The V/Flush, otoh, has no "dry bowl" capability...and it needs more water than most people think it does to prevent the pump from becoming clogged by solids and TP. They claim it CAN use "as little as" 1 pint/flush...but the directions call for keeping the pedal down at least 3 full seconds after urine only--at least 7 seconds after solids or any TP--to rinse out the vacuum pump...otherwise it can build up around the bellows in the pump and clog it. The suction also has the opposite effect from what you think it does...it splatters waste all over the inside of the hose and vacuum tank, and the flush water volume isn't enough to complete to fill the hose to rinse it out...so permeated hoses are actually MORE common than with other toilets, and the reason SeaLand won't warranty the system if any hose but theirs is used. To prevent it, it's necessary to fill the bowl completely with water and flush it through at least once a week--and especially before the boat is to sit--to completely rinse all the waste out of the system. So replacing your toilet isn't necessary to conserve tank space (nor will there be any other reason for at least another 50-60 years...that toilet is built to last at least 100 years with decent maintenance)...nor is it necessary to sacrifice more than a gallon of your fresh water to keeping your hoses clean. I'm not knocking the V/flush, btw...my last two boats had VacuFlush toilets, and I liked it. It's just not quite the ultimate--or even necessary--solution to maximizing holding tank space and/or permeated hoses that SeaLand claims it is. Nor is it necessary to spend $2k+ to have every advtantage it offers except "step on the pedal" convenience instead of pumping by hand--especially on a boat that you've already said spends more time sitting than in use. If you were a live-aboard, or used your boat every weekend, it might be worth it...but for your use, I just can't see it. IMO, all you really need to do is add a tank or replace your Lectra/San with one. At least consider doing that before committing to spending that much money? Your best source for a tank is Ronco Plastics http://www.ronco-plastics.com They make TOP quality, thick-walled tanks (in fact, they make tanks for SeaLand) for a very reasonable price...more than 400 shapes and sizes, including over 100 that are non-rectangular...and they install fittings in the sizes/locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. Find a location within 6' of the toilet, specify a 1" vent to keep it aerobic...and use either K.O. or Odorlos in it...you won't ever have any odor OR sludge problems, even when the boat sits. The SeaLand T-Series pump (same one they package with the V/flush "system") is the best overboard discharge pump...it's a diaphragm pump that, unlike an impeller macerator, can run dry without harm and will work without problems--even after sitting for a long while--for years. If you have to pull the Lectra/San out, I wouldn't store it...the rubber parts will just deteriorate...lubrication in the motors will settle and cease to provide any protection from corrosion. Sell it on eBay...used ones fetch ridiculously high prices--at least enough to pay for a tank. Or someone here may want it. All of the above said, it IS your boat. I've made my case...but if you still want to spend that much money to gain very little, it's up to you.Many thanks
Peggy, Many thanks for this very thoughtful comment. It certainly seems like it is worth doing this project one stage at a time, and experimenting with your suggestion to retain the classic Wilcox head and install a holding tank. You are a person who will especially appeciate a significant improvement I made to the head during its last maintenance. I'm sure you know that the rubber flapper valve at the bottom of the bowl seats against a flimsy brass ring vulcanized to the bottom of a rubber disk. The brass ring deteriorates, the valve doesn't seal, and Wilcox no longer supplies a replacement part. I had a bronze plate machined with proper sized holes so the valve now seals against a solid bronze plate. It seals perfectly and the head never worked better! When you look down in the bowl, you see a gold colored s**t hole, the nicest looking s**t hole ever! I'll be happy to keep using it. Ben Stavis ben.stavis@verizon.net
Peggy, Many thanks for this very thoughtful comment. It certainly seems like it is worth doing this project one stage at a time, and experimenting with your suggestion to retain the classic Wilcox head and install a holding tank. You are a person who will especially appeciate a significant improvement I made to the head during its last maintenance. I'm sure you know that the rubber flapper valve at the bottom of the bowl seats against a flimsy brass ring vulcanized to the bottom of a rubber disk. The brass ring deteriorates, the valve doesn't seal, and Wilcox no longer supplies a replacement part. I had a bronze plate machined with proper sized holes so the valve now seals against a solid bronze plate. It seals perfectly and the head never worked better! When you look down in the bowl, you see a gold colored s**t hole, the nicest looking s**t hole ever! I'll be happy to keep using it. Ben Stavis ben.stavis@verizon.net
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