i am about to close my deal on a 37 cutter and the only thing major thing the surveyor could find was that several of the swaged fittings on the shrouds were cracked. I KNOW THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS IMMEDIATE ATTENION and am seeking advice. the wire seems to be in good shape and i know that historicallty the upper swages are not a problem, SO...... if i were to fit STA-LOK long studs on the lowers would that sufice? plan on replacing all the wires if i go off shore but that in not until 3-5 years from now. will have a new inner club footed stay replaced completly as i think it is easier than trying to go the sta-lok way....has anybody had to replace the fitting for the club footed jib????? who makes it and is it a problem? thanks in advance chet p
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Ed Schenck
Replace now?
Did you only check the lowers? Mine, in fresh water, seem OK. But for peace of mind I am replacing after 22 years. A friend replaced the 1/4" shroud wire with 9/32", same as forestay and backstay. I plan to do the same. Not sure about the mid-stay. With the mast down I will open up the deck around the chainplates. They need to be carefully checked, my friend had to replace a couple.
Did you only check the lowers? Mine, in fresh water, seem OK. But for peace of mind I am replacing after 22 years. A friend replaced the 1/4" shroud wire with 9/32", same as forestay and backstay. I plan to do the same. Not sure about the mid-stay. With the mast down I will open up the deck around the chainplates. They need to be carefully checked, my friend had to replace a couple.
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Tom Hadoulias
Standing Rigging
Chet, I,m just a few miles north of you at Harbortown Marina. I have a "81" 37C that is going through a complete metamorphasis for bluewater cruising. I have replaced all my rigging with Sta-Locs top and bottom and increased from the 1/4" that the boat comes standard with to 19/32" which is as large as you can go and still use the 3/8" clevis pins with the stock mast hardware. This is more than adequate. More to the point, there are some excellent riggers in the area but they are overpriced. I would not recommend just doing the lowers, the wire is old and also loses strength and you'll have a difficult time with spreading the ends and using the Sta-Locs. You can probably get it to work but you don't want to sacrifice safety and the possibility of losing a mast due to a failure. The entire rig is both prone to corrossion and fatigue. Even though the uppers may not be corroded, the rig is near or over 20 years old and depending on how she was sailed over those years determines the amount of stress she's seen. Even though you don't intend to go off shore there are times you'll stress the rig in the river and you just don't know unless you proofload the rig or replace it. I would try to negotiate it into the price and just have someone like Sailnet do the replacement rigging for you. You'll save over half the cost of a rigger and you can do it yourself with the mast up. Feel free to email me at hadoult@aol.com and we can exchange phone numbers and talk more if you like.I can save you some of the aggrevation that I went through! Hindsight is 20/20. Tom
Chet, I,m just a few miles north of you at Harbortown Marina. I have a "81" 37C that is going through a complete metamorphasis for bluewater cruising. I have replaced all my rigging with Sta-Locs top and bottom and increased from the 1/4" that the boat comes standard with to 19/32" which is as large as you can go and still use the 3/8" clevis pins with the stock mast hardware. This is more than adequate. More to the point, there are some excellent riggers in the area but they are overpriced. I would not recommend just doing the lowers, the wire is old and also loses strength and you'll have a difficult time with spreading the ends and using the Sta-Locs. You can probably get it to work but you don't want to sacrifice safety and the possibility of losing a mast due to a failure. The entire rig is both prone to corrossion and fatigue. Even though the uppers may not be corroded, the rig is near or over 20 years old and depending on how she was sailed over those years determines the amount of stress she's seen. Even though you don't intend to go off shore there are times you'll stress the rig in the river and you just don't know unless you proofload the rig or replace it. I would try to negotiate it into the price and just have someone like Sailnet do the replacement rigging for you. You'll save over half the cost of a rigger and you can do it yourself with the mast up. Feel free to email me at hadoult@aol.com and we can exchange phone numbers and talk more if you like.I can save you some of the aggrevation that I went through! Hindsight is 20/20. Tom
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Tim Schaaf
Agree with Tom.......
including putting Sta-locks up above. And, by the way, if you get all those Stay-locks, the cost of the wire suddenly doesn't seem so overwhelming in comparison to the whole job. Better to do it now.
including putting Sta-locks up above. And, by the way, if you get all those Stay-locks, the cost of the wire suddenly doesn't seem so overwhelming in comparison to the whole job. Better to do it now.
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Tim Schaaf
316 stainless
In warm salt water, many riggers recommend changing the rig every six to ten years. Maybe overkill, but..... In my case, I went ten in cold salt water, and could have gone more. But, when I moved to warm salty water, I went another ten, and it was TIME. In both cases, I used swage fittings, and none showed signs of failing, but several were getting there, as was the wire! This time, I decided to go to 316 stainless, which is supposed to be much more corrosion resistant, but less strong. So, I went up a size, as have others, but switched to 316. The result is equivalent strength to the original, which both Hunter and riggers state is strong enough, several times over, and much better longevity. I also used Norsemans (similar to Sta-locks) which will be reusable ten years hence! Incidentally, a boat not heavily sailed, can have a lot of wear on its rigging if it is in a slip or on a mooring where there is a lot of motion or wind. It is the constant flexing and cycling of the rigging that can wear it out, apart from corrosion.
In warm salt water, many riggers recommend changing the rig every six to ten years. Maybe overkill, but..... In my case, I went ten in cold salt water, and could have gone more. But, when I moved to warm salty water, I went another ten, and it was TIME. In both cases, I used swage fittings, and none showed signs of failing, but several were getting there, as was the wire! This time, I decided to go to 316 stainless, which is supposed to be much more corrosion resistant, but less strong. So, I went up a size, as have others, but switched to 316. The result is equivalent strength to the original, which both Hunter and riggers state is strong enough, several times over, and much better longevity. I also used Norsemans (similar to Sta-locks) which will be reusable ten years hence! Incidentally, a boat not heavily sailed, can have a lot of wear on its rigging if it is in a slip or on a mooring where there is a lot of motion or wind. It is the constant flexing and cycling of the rigging that can wear it out, apart from corrosion.
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Tom Hadoulias
Good Points Tim...
Metal fatigue due to vibration definately should be taken into consideration. I went with 316 as well however I mis-stated the wire diameter in my previous post. It should be 9/32" not 19/32" as I stated. I guess the engineer in me wanted to overstate the actual size of the wire to make me feel more secure! Incedently, I did find a small crack at the top hole of my STBD upper chainplate which prompted me to replace them all with 1/4" 316 bar stock. I made them myself and while I was at it I completely sealed the exposed wood in the deck with epoxy. I had found moisture in the deck at the chainplates but to Hunters credit, they used marine plywood as a core and there was no rot. I dried the areas out before sealing and that problem won't happen again. By the way, I read somewhere in an offshore outfitting book that the strength of the rigging combined should reach at a minimum twice the displacement of the boat to be considered adequate. The 37C has 9 terminated rig sections which equal approximately 90,000# of breaking strength or better that a 4 to 1 ratio. There was also a cross-sectional mast area and diameter that the 37C easily meets. The chainplates just meet the requirements for the rig which is one reason I elected to beef those up. If my memory serves me correctly, these figures were in John Vigors "The Seaworthy Sailboat". The 37C actually fairs extremely well in his rating system and can be made to meet most all of the stringent requirements he specifies.
Metal fatigue due to vibration definately should be taken into consideration. I went with 316 as well however I mis-stated the wire diameter in my previous post. It should be 9/32" not 19/32" as I stated. I guess the engineer in me wanted to overstate the actual size of the wire to make me feel more secure! Incedently, I did find a small crack at the top hole of my STBD upper chainplate which prompted me to replace them all with 1/4" 316 bar stock. I made them myself and while I was at it I completely sealed the exposed wood in the deck with epoxy. I had found moisture in the deck at the chainplates but to Hunters credit, they used marine plywood as a core and there was no rot. I dried the areas out before sealing and that problem won't happen again. By the way, I read somewhere in an offshore outfitting book that the strength of the rigging combined should reach at a minimum twice the displacement of the boat to be considered adequate. The 37C has 9 terminated rig sections which equal approximately 90,000# of breaking strength or better that a 4 to 1 ratio. There was also a cross-sectional mast area and diameter that the 37C easily meets. The chainplates just meet the requirements for the rig which is one reason I elected to beef those up. If my memory serves me correctly, these figures were in John Vigors "The Seaworthy Sailboat". The 37C actually fairs extremely well in his rating system and can be made to meet most all of the stringent requirements he specifies.
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Tim Schaaf
More rigging for Tom
Yes, that would be a minimum strength. Some say that each individual shroud should be able to support the weight of the boat, but that would be overkill. Still, every time the boat heels, a large part of its weight is being lifted by only the shrouds on one side........and that is without shock loading! By the way, I think you will find that the Cherubinis in general measure up pretty well to many of the important numbers, capsize screens, etc.
Yes, that would be a minimum strength. Some say that each individual shroud should be able to support the weight of the boat, but that would be overkill. Still, every time the boat heels, a large part of its weight is being lifted by only the shrouds on one side........and that is without shock loading! By the way, I think you will find that the Cherubinis in general measure up pretty well to many of the important numbers, capsize screens, etc.
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Tom Hadoulias
Tim, How's Cabo???
Tim, Would like to talk to you about Cabo San Lucas as I have an interest in heading to the opposite coast and beyond. My email is hadoult@aol.com if you have some free time. Would also like to compare notes on some other aspects of our boats. Thanks! Tom
Tim, Would like to talk to you about Cabo San Lucas as I have an interest in heading to the opposite coast and beyond. My email is hadoult@aol.com if you have some free time. Would also like to compare notes on some other aspects of our boats. Thanks! Tom
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Ron
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Gene Gruender
I'm confused!
I'm a bit puzzled. The comments here indicate that 1/4" wire was standard. Mine had 9/32" when I got her, as well as a couple other boats I looked at. Was the rigging originally 1/4" or 9/32" I've replaced most of it and have the wire and fittings on the boat to replace the rest. I've gone to 5/16" for all of it and am going with 316 stainless wire. Contrary to one comment, I found all the staylock fittings I needed for 5/16" wire to fit the 1/2" pins. I bought all my material at what used to be JSI (I forget what they call themselves now) Staylocks cost about twice what swedged fittings cost, but you can use them over and replace things when you're out. Next time I leave I plan to carry one extra piece of wire as long as my longest stay. That way I can replace any shroud on the boat if needed. One comment mentioned a cracked chainplate. I've found 3, and because of that have replaced all of them. They seem to crack at the top bolt due to the fact that the stress is at an angle to the chainplate. I bought 3/8" 316 bar stock and made my own at a cost of about $20 each. (I got my material at www.onlinemetals.com. There are probably cheaper sources if you search around. )If you notice, the originals were 1/4", but had an insert welded in that brought them to 3/8" at the hole. Going to 3/8" should greatly increase your safety margin. I'm off to a delivery Saturday so I won't be reading this for a while, but if anyone has any questions feel free to email me at: rainbowchaser@ev1.net
I'm a bit puzzled. The comments here indicate that 1/4" wire was standard. Mine had 9/32" when I got her, as well as a couple other boats I looked at. Was the rigging originally 1/4" or 9/32" I've replaced most of it and have the wire and fittings on the boat to replace the rest. I've gone to 5/16" for all of it and am going with 316 stainless wire. Contrary to one comment, I found all the staylock fittings I needed for 5/16" wire to fit the 1/2" pins. I bought all my material at what used to be JSI (I forget what they call themselves now) Staylocks cost about twice what swedged fittings cost, but you can use them over and replace things when you're out. Next time I leave I plan to carry one extra piece of wire as long as my longest stay. That way I can replace any shroud on the boat if needed. One comment mentioned a cracked chainplate. I've found 3, and because of that have replaced all of them. They seem to crack at the top bolt due to the fact that the stress is at an angle to the chainplate. I bought 3/8" 316 bar stock and made my own at a cost of about $20 each. (I got my material at www.onlinemetals.com. There are probably cheaper sources if you search around. )If you notice, the originals were 1/4", but had an insert welded in that brought them to 3/8" at the hole. Going to 3/8" should greatly increase your safety margin. I'm off to a delivery Saturday so I won't be reading this for a while, but if anyone has any questions feel free to email me at: rainbowchaser@ev1.net
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Tom Hadoulias
Obviously some differences in 37C rigging...
My boat is a 1981 model, I read what Gene has written and I have the utmost respect for his knowledge so my conclusion is that either I've measured wrong or Hunter used different rigging sizes. All my rigging according to my micrometer and my riggers "V" gage showed the stock rigging to be 1/4" 1X19 wire probably a low 300 series stainless, definately not 316. My chainplates were just as Gene described except that my backstay had a 3/8" hole instead of 1/2". I was told by my rigger that 9/32" was as large as I could go with sta-locks and not get into a problem with clevis pin sizes. Obviously, based on Gene's input this is not correct. I would have gone with larger wire if I had gotten good info from my rigger up front, but I have no concerns with the 9/32" 316 stainless wire that I have what so ever. The chainplates are a concern and I found one crack in the exact same location Gene did. I went to equivalent thickness of the existing plate plus the re-inforcing washers as well and it requires some effort to grind the deck and get them to fit but I will definately sleep better at night. To answer Ron's question, I was expecting a turn key operation from my rigger with me doing the chainplates. I removed and had the mast painted as well and when I was expecting the mast to go in and the rigging to be installed the rigger droped the ball. I had to pay to get the mast shipped to the boat. It came with a box full of parts and hardware that had been removed by the paint guy and the rigger dropped the rigging off coiled on the foredeck of my boat. He suddenly had amnesia and stated that instalation was not part of the package and would be extra. The cost for the rigging which included forestay, midstay, full uppers and lowers, running backstays, backstay and topping lift all with sta-locks top and bottom and including sta-lock insulators for the backstay came to $2700.00. I then had the mast shipped to the marina, I installed all the hardware, rigging and stepped the mast myself. The moral of the story is... get it all in writing before you start!! I thought I could have it all done for me for just a little more than having JSI do the rigging or just buying the individual components and doing it myself. I'll chalk this one up to experience!
My boat is a 1981 model, I read what Gene has written and I have the utmost respect for his knowledge so my conclusion is that either I've measured wrong or Hunter used different rigging sizes. All my rigging according to my micrometer and my riggers "V" gage showed the stock rigging to be 1/4" 1X19 wire probably a low 300 series stainless, definately not 316. My chainplates were just as Gene described except that my backstay had a 3/8" hole instead of 1/2". I was told by my rigger that 9/32" was as large as I could go with sta-locks and not get into a problem with clevis pin sizes. Obviously, based on Gene's input this is not correct. I would have gone with larger wire if I had gotten good info from my rigger up front, but I have no concerns with the 9/32" 316 stainless wire that I have what so ever. The chainplates are a concern and I found one crack in the exact same location Gene did. I went to equivalent thickness of the existing plate plus the re-inforcing washers as well and it requires some effort to grind the deck and get them to fit but I will definately sleep better at night. To answer Ron's question, I was expecting a turn key operation from my rigger with me doing the chainplates. I removed and had the mast painted as well and when I was expecting the mast to go in and the rigging to be installed the rigger droped the ball. I had to pay to get the mast shipped to the boat. It came with a box full of parts and hardware that had been removed by the paint guy and the rigger dropped the rigging off coiled on the foredeck of my boat. He suddenly had amnesia and stated that instalation was not part of the package and would be extra. The cost for the rigging which included forestay, midstay, full uppers and lowers, running backstays, backstay and topping lift all with sta-locks top and bottom and including sta-lock insulators for the backstay came to $2700.00. I then had the mast shipped to the marina, I installed all the hardware, rigging and stepped the mast myself. The moral of the story is... get it all in writing before you start!! I thought I could have it all done for me for just a little more than having JSI do the rigging or just buying the individual components and doing it myself. I'll chalk this one up to experience!
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