Could someone tell me the proper tension setting for the stays on an 1987 H23? Also, does anyone have an extra spreader end bolt 6mm for a francespar mast spreader? Thanks again JOe
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Les Murray
Check on Trailer Sailor.com
There is a good article on Trailer Sailor.com about rig tuning. It gives some generals with some specifics about a McGregor 26. I think the key is knowing what your tensile strenght of the shrouds are and then tensioning them to about 10% of that number. Les Murray H20 Limerick
There is a good article on Trailer Sailor.com about rig tuning. It gives some generals with some specifics about a McGregor 26. I think the key is knowing what your tensile strenght of the shrouds are and then tensioning them to about 10% of that number. Les Murray H20 Limerick
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Hi
Rig by Practice not Numbers
I did the same kind of thing. Assuming you have the correct rake and so on (6-12" which you may want to check as some H23's had LOTS of rake) at least for the shrouds, tighten them up watching bend and so on, and then take it out for a sail. If the lee side gets too loose at whatever you sail in (15 knots is a good easy midpoint) then tighten up both sides evenly ! I tighten mine while out sailing with an autopilot, laying on the deck, sailing in 12-13 knots...gotta trust that autopilot ! I go out in 20 knots too so, they need a little more tension in case I haven't reefed enough. Do you have a lot of weather helm in 15 knots ? Any more than 10lbs is too much.
I did the same kind of thing. Assuming you have the correct rake and so on (6-12" which you may want to check as some H23's had LOTS of rake) at least for the shrouds, tighten them up watching bend and so on, and then take it out for a sail. If the lee side gets too loose at whatever you sail in (15 knots is a good easy midpoint) then tighten up both sides evenly ! I tighten mine while out sailing with an autopilot, laying on the deck, sailing in 12-13 knots...gotta trust that autopilot ! I go out in 20 knots too so, they need a little more tension in case I haven't reefed enough. Do you have a lot of weather helm in 15 knots ? Any more than 10lbs is too much.
M
MIke B
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Roberto Bisonni
Struggling with same problem
I got tired of having slack in the leeward shrouds when close hauled in about 15 kts with a full main. So, I tightened the upper and lower shrouds to about 700 lbs each (about 20% of the breaking strength of the 5/32" wire). The slack is gone, but the boat heels more and I now have more weather helm than I had before. I didn't have a chance to reef the main to see if that helped any. I will try that next time (if the wind is up). If reefing doesn't help, my next move will be to slack the uppers off to about 600 lbs. This should allow the top of the mast to bend off to leeward slightly and depower the main, i.e. less heel and hopefully less weather helm. BTW, I have about 6 in. of rake and about 1.5 in. of bend, with the jib halyard properly tensioned (no scallops between hanks) and the backstay just slack. Here are a few hints: a) use a Loos gauge & record rig tension b) keep track of how the boat handles under similar wind conditions with different rig tensions. c) don't give up. The "proper" rig tension is very subjective, and depends on how you prefer to sail, e.g. maximum boatspeed or a comfortable ride. Good luck, Peter
I got tired of having slack in the leeward shrouds when close hauled in about 15 kts with a full main. So, I tightened the upper and lower shrouds to about 700 lbs each (about 20% of the breaking strength of the 5/32" wire). The slack is gone, but the boat heels more and I now have more weather helm than I had before. I didn't have a chance to reef the main to see if that helped any. I will try that next time (if the wind is up). If reefing doesn't help, my next move will be to slack the uppers off to about 600 lbs. This should allow the top of the mast to bend off to leeward slightly and depower the main, i.e. less heel and hopefully less weather helm. BTW, I have about 6 in. of rake and about 1.5 in. of bend, with the jib halyard properly tensioned (no scallops between hanks) and the backstay just slack. Here are a few hints: a) use a Loos gauge & record rig tension b) keep track of how the boat handles under similar wind conditions with different rig tensions. c) don't give up. The "proper" rig tension is very subjective, and depends on how you prefer to sail, e.g. maximum boatspeed or a comfortable ride. Good luck, Peter
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M
More on Rigging
I disagree a little abt that last answer. The mast won't bend THAT much to allow much wind to spill. It would have to bend 6 feet in order to have any real spillage. Weather helm is caused IMHO by a factory defect in the rudder/housing. Put a bungee around the rudder, just below the pivot bolt, right above the lower housing pin that holds it to the boat, and pull it under the ridge on the rudder, where it thins down a little. The idea is to keep the rudder as far under (forward in the housing) the boat as possible. It should be as tight up to the housing as it can get. AT 15 knots steady, full main and 120, I had 30 pounds of rudder force to keep it upright and going straight. WAY TOO MUCH. Now after my bungee fix, I have 5-10 lbs at the tiller end even in almost 20knots. Mast rake is now not an issue.
I disagree a little abt that last answer. The mast won't bend THAT much to allow much wind to spill. It would have to bend 6 feet in order to have any real spillage. Weather helm is caused IMHO by a factory defect in the rudder/housing. Put a bungee around the rudder, just below the pivot bolt, right above the lower housing pin that holds it to the boat, and pull it under the ridge on the rudder, where it thins down a little. The idea is to keep the rudder as far under (forward in the housing) the boat as possible. It should be as tight up to the housing as it can get. AT 15 knots steady, full main and 120, I had 30 pounds of rudder force to keep it upright and going straight. WAY TOO MUCH. Now after my bungee fix, I have 5-10 lbs at the tiller end even in almost 20knots. Mast rake is now not an issue.
To M of MD re: Weather Helm
I read your post a couple of weeks ago regarding the position of the rudder in the housing, and it made perfect sense to me. Pulling the blade further forward puts more rudder area ahead of the pivot line and simultaneously reduces the area aft of the pivot line, therefore reduced effort at the helm. However, my 88 H23 had bad weather helm (and 18 inches of rake on the very bendy Z-Spar mast) when I first bought it. I tuned the weather helm out by loosening the backstay completely and adjusting the headstay and uppers until I had about six inches of rake. At the end of this exercise, I tightened the shrouds to the tension they had when I started, because I had no idea at the time how tight they should have been. Well, it worked. The weather helm was gone and the boat became stable when sailing close-hauled in 12-15 kts...but the lower leeward shroud was slack and the upper was dangling, and the slack changed sides when I tacked. That's how I figured that the mast(head) was bending off to leeward. I didn't want the rig moving around, so I did some homework. I found out that shroud tension should be about 20% of the breaking strength, so I retensiond the rig to see what would happen. The rig stiffened up nicely. There was no more slack in the shrouds, but the boat heeled more and I had weather helm in strong puffs. When I got out on the cockpit coaming with the tiller extension, the weather helm was not as severe. This is what led me to believe that extra heel from the stiffer rig was causing the weather helm. From my perch on the coaming, I can also see the rudder blade and the huge wake (and drag) I am creating by dragging it through the water at an unnaturally high angle. The next step is to sail in 12-15 kts of wind with a reef in the main and see what happens. If I'm lucky, I'll have very little weather helm and a slight increase in boatspeed. I should also be able to take some of the tension back out of the shrouds too..... Peter S/V Raven
I read your post a couple of weeks ago regarding the position of the rudder in the housing, and it made perfect sense to me. Pulling the blade further forward puts more rudder area ahead of the pivot line and simultaneously reduces the area aft of the pivot line, therefore reduced effort at the helm. However, my 88 H23 had bad weather helm (and 18 inches of rake on the very bendy Z-Spar mast) when I first bought it. I tuned the weather helm out by loosening the backstay completely and adjusting the headstay and uppers until I had about six inches of rake. At the end of this exercise, I tightened the shrouds to the tension they had when I started, because I had no idea at the time how tight they should have been. Well, it worked. The weather helm was gone and the boat became stable when sailing close-hauled in 12-15 kts...but the lower leeward shroud was slack and the upper was dangling, and the slack changed sides when I tacked. That's how I figured that the mast(head) was bending off to leeward. I didn't want the rig moving around, so I did some homework. I found out that shroud tension should be about 20% of the breaking strength, so I retensiond the rig to see what would happen. The rig stiffened up nicely. There was no more slack in the shrouds, but the boat heeled more and I had weather helm in strong puffs. When I got out on the cockpit coaming with the tiller extension, the weather helm was not as severe. This is what led me to believe that extra heel from the stiffer rig was causing the weather helm. From my perch on the coaming, I can also see the rudder blade and the huge wake (and drag) I am creating by dragging it through the water at an unnaturally high angle. The next step is to sail in 12-15 kts of wind with a reef in the main and see what happens. If I'm lucky, I'll have very little weather helm and a slight increase in boatspeed. I should also be able to take some of the tension back out of the shrouds too..... Peter S/V Raven
Re: what is "rounding up": for Roberto
"Rounding-up" is the tendency for a boat that is sailing close-hauled to turn violently into the wind. It is the result of inattention and extreme weather helm. Most boats are designed with a little weather helm. It makes the boat easier to steer, the helmsman gets good feedback through the tiller and if something were to happen and the helmsman let go of the tiller, the boat would turn up into the wind and stop by itself with the sails luffing. However, a boat carrying too much sail for the wind conditions will heel way over. This causes more weather helm than usual, so more rudder has to be applied to keep the boat straight. However, as the boat heels more, some of the rudder blade is lifted out of the water. So, even more rudder has to be applied to compensate for the reduced blade area. Eventually, if too much rudder is applied, it will stall. At that point, the rudder is no longer able to hold the boat on course. The excessive weather helm that the rudder was counteracting turns the boat sharply up into the wind. Rounding-up is serious business. It can cause accidental tacks or a backwinded jib and can knock unprepared crew off their feet or even overboard. Hope that answers your question. Peter S/V Raven
"Rounding-up" is the tendency for a boat that is sailing close-hauled to turn violently into the wind. It is the result of inattention and extreme weather helm. Most boats are designed with a little weather helm. It makes the boat easier to steer, the helmsman gets good feedback through the tiller and if something were to happen and the helmsman let go of the tiller, the boat would turn up into the wind and stop by itself with the sails luffing. However, a boat carrying too much sail for the wind conditions will heel way over. This causes more weather helm than usual, so more rudder has to be applied to keep the boat straight. However, as the boat heels more, some of the rudder blade is lifted out of the water. So, even more rudder has to be applied to compensate for the reduced blade area. Eventually, if too much rudder is applied, it will stall. At that point, the rudder is no longer able to hold the boat on course. The excessive weather helm that the rudder was counteracting turns the boat sharply up into the wind. Rounding-up is serious business. It can cause accidental tacks or a backwinded jib and can knock unprepared crew off their feet or even overboard. Hope that answers your question. Peter S/V Raven
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M
Weather Helm
Yes, I did the same re. taking all that factory-rake out of it - mine had 18" or so. Didn't help a bit. At 15 knots I was still pulling with 2 hands sometimes on the rudder. BUNGEE fixed it all. 20 knots and I've got maybe 10lbs at most of helm. Put the rudder where it's supposed to be !
Yes, I did the same re. taking all that factory-rake out of it - mine had 18" or so. Didn't help a bit. At 15 knots I was still pulling with 2 hands sometimes on the rudder. BUNGEE fixed it all. 20 knots and I've got maybe 10lbs at most of helm. Put the rudder where it's supposed to be !
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Greg Stebbins
Peter Sauh - 23 Rig tuning
Peter, Did a bunch of sailing over the 4th so I decided to try your new tension numbers. They're right out of the Loos book, no?. With 100# on the lowers, 600# on the uppers and 300# on the forestay, I noticed basically the same performance as you with no helm issues. This setup tends to make the backstay superfluous. Now the question, Did you notice a forward bend in your mast? My mast has a slight "C" shape to it now. Greg H23 Faster-
Peter, Did a bunch of sailing over the 4th so I decided to try your new tension numbers. They're right out of the Loos book, no?. With 100# on the lowers, 600# on the uppers and 300# on the forestay, I noticed basically the same performance as you with no helm issues. This setup tends to make the backstay superfluous. Now the question, Did you notice a forward bend in your mast? My mast has a slight "C" shape to it now. Greg H23 Faster-
Reply to Greg
Assuming you have the Z-spar mast, you may need more tension on the lowers (at least 400 lb) because they contribute the most to keeping the mast vertical (measured side to side). The tension in the uppers will affect the ability of the top of the mast to bend to leeward. What you want is just the top of the mast to bend slightly, not the whole mast to lean off to leeward. This will reduce the heel, while keeping the lower portion of the main powered up. Your boatspeed should not fall off, in fact it may pick up a bit because less heel means less wetted surface and less weather helm, and therefore less drag. Yes, with the reduced headstay tension the backstay will now be almost slack (mine is) until you tension the jib halyard. This is where the payoff is, because now you can adjust jib luff tension as well as mast bend for different wind conditions. In light air, easing the jib halyard will give you a fuller jib. Less halyard tension also means that you need less backstay tension, so you end up with only a little bend and a full, more powerful main. Remember, rake and bend should be measured with the boat at rest with no wind loads on the rig. As the wind picks up and you tighten the jib halyard, you have to increase backstay tension at the same time to maintain the same rake. This puts more bend into the mast, which flattens and depowers the mainsail. With reduced tension in the forestay, it shouldn't take as much force to tension the backstay to where you want it. I have seen people adjust the backstay using a piece of half-inch line with a small bowline tied in and pulled straight down to a cam cleat on the transom. I have also seen more elaborate setups, including the triangular plates with the wheels. I am going to start simple and keep it that way until I find something that works better. Unfortunately, I am cursed with light wind from now until November, so it may be a while. Maybe I should go slap on some fresh VC17 on the hull in the meantime? Good luck. Peter S/V Raven
Assuming you have the Z-spar mast, you may need more tension on the lowers (at least 400 lb) because they contribute the most to keeping the mast vertical (measured side to side). The tension in the uppers will affect the ability of the top of the mast to bend to leeward. What you want is just the top of the mast to bend slightly, not the whole mast to lean off to leeward. This will reduce the heel, while keeping the lower portion of the main powered up. Your boatspeed should not fall off, in fact it may pick up a bit because less heel means less wetted surface and less weather helm, and therefore less drag. Yes, with the reduced headstay tension the backstay will now be almost slack (mine is) until you tension the jib halyard. This is where the payoff is, because now you can adjust jib luff tension as well as mast bend for different wind conditions. In light air, easing the jib halyard will give you a fuller jib. Less halyard tension also means that you need less backstay tension, so you end up with only a little bend and a full, more powerful main. Remember, rake and bend should be measured with the boat at rest with no wind loads on the rig. As the wind picks up and you tighten the jib halyard, you have to increase backstay tension at the same time to maintain the same rake. This puts more bend into the mast, which flattens and depowers the mainsail. With reduced tension in the forestay, it shouldn't take as much force to tension the backstay to where you want it. I have seen people adjust the backstay using a piece of half-inch line with a small bowline tied in and pulled straight down to a cam cleat on the transom. I have also seen more elaborate setups, including the triangular plates with the wheels. I am going to start simple and keep it that way until I find something that works better. Unfortunately, I am cursed with light wind from now until November, so it may be a while. Maybe I should go slap on some fresh VC17 on the hull in the meantime? Good luck. Peter S/V Raven
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Greg Stebbins
Peter - Yea but....
Peter, Sorry about the typo. I've got a Z-Spar and am using about 330-400# on the lowers (was supposed to say 10%). As for the Back stay, I can flex the mast by hand at the dock, but under sail in the 15-20 kt wind range, It takes the full 6:1 advantage I've got on my adjuster. I'm also running a true downhaul on the jib to control luff tension. You've got a 23 and that's about the only boat on the planet that allows that particular enhancement. Now, original question, Do you have a forward component to your current mast bend? I do. Greg H23 Faster-
Peter, Sorry about the typo. I've got a Z-Spar and am using about 330-400# on the lowers (was supposed to say 10%). As for the Back stay, I can flex the mast by hand at the dock, but under sail in the 15-20 kt wind range, It takes the full 6:1 advantage I've got on my adjuster. I'm also running a true downhaul on the jib to control luff tension. You've got a 23 and that's about the only boat on the planet that allows that particular enhancement. Now, original question, Do you have a forward component to your current mast bend? I do. Greg H23 Faster-
To Greg: Hmmmm, let's see...
I have about 1-1/2 in. of bend, and about 6 in. of rake, as suggested by Cliff R. The leading edge of the mast does not pass through the vertical line projected upward from the foot of the mast. I guess that means I don't have a forward component to my bend. However, if stand at the base of the mast and look up, the leading edge of the mast does pass through a straight line from the foot of the mast to the spreaders. I guess that means that I do have a forward component of bend? OK, you make the call, because I'm completely stumped! Peter S/V Raven
I have about 1-1/2 in. of bend, and about 6 in. of rake, as suggested by Cliff R. The leading edge of the mast does not pass through the vertical line projected upward from the foot of the mast. I guess that means I don't have a forward component to my bend. However, if stand at the base of the mast and look up, the leading edge of the mast does pass through a straight line from the foot of the mast to the spreaders. I guess that means that I do have a forward component of bend? OK, you make the call, because I'm completely stumped! Peter S/V Raven
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