Reverse polarity

Status
Not open for further replies.
Apr 9, 2012
1
Catalina 30 tall rig Des Moines, WA
Hi there
I just had a diver clean my hull and he found heavy deposit on the prop and shaft. He said it was caused by reverse polarity and he had only seen it once before. He suggested I call an electrician to check out. Does any one know what this means?
Thanks
BG
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,489
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
If you have current flowing between the neutral and ground (commonly improperly referred to as reverse polarity), you would have severe erosion/corrosion. Not "deposits". Do you know specifically to what he refers as "deposits"?
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,299
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Nitrogen narcosis .........................

...................... will often lead to assumptions like that :eek:.

With corrosion, the affected areas get smaller, metals waste away. Deposits are additions to the surface, often a biological growth.

It would be nice to get a sample of the deposit to see what it is but for sure, it's doubtful that it's due to corrosion.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,146
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
We fasten anodes to the shaft/propeller assembly in order to make the shaft propeller assembly more galvanically negative. The most suitable anode metal in salt water is a zinc alloy. If things are normal adding a zinc anode obtains a negative shift of the entire assembly at least -200mv. With an anode fastened we expect a final potential in the range of -550 to -900 mv - (assuming fiberglass hull, stainless shaft, bronze prop, inboard motor).

We make the shaft assembly more negative in order that we waste the zinc instead of the propeller, but barnacles thrive the more negative we make the assembly.

One cannot create a potential more negative than -1000mv using zinc anodes, however the assembly can become more negative than -1000mv by using a magnesium anode in salt water, via a failed impressed current system, or if there is stray DC current which is making the shaft assembly more negative. Any of these three conditions amount to a serious threat to the boat.

Measure the potential of the shaft assembly and you will know if things are out of the normal range. If things are not normal you can also identify whether the source of increased negative potential is on your boat or from a neighbor boat.

Charles

ps I am in south Sound five years now. No barnacles until this last season.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
Hi there
I just had a diver clean my hull and he found heavy deposit on the prop and shaft. He said it was caused by reverse polarity and he had only seen it once before. He suggested I call an electrician to check out. Does any one know what this means?
I have never heard that deposits of scale (assuming that is what your diver was referring to) on the running gear was indicative of a reverse polarity situation. Not saying it isn't the case but that's the first time I've heard it in my 18+ years in the hull cleaning biz.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,146
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Fast makes an excellent point where the deposits are not marine growth.

If that is the case then all the more reason to measure the prop/shaft assembly galvanic potential -- particularly if any of the rest of the underwater metals might be exposed to DC current. For example, rudder posts, shaft struts, and through hulls exposed to bilge water.

DC stray current damage has occured where a helm compass lamp supply wire DC+ came in contact with the pedistal/rudder shaft assembly and the rudder shaft bonding is no longer well connected. Helm component failure from corrosion is particularly unpleasant.

Apologies for guessing but the term "deposits" is pretty vague.

Chas
 
Last edited:

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
I think that your diver must have been referring to galvanic corrosion, caused by stray current running to / from your boat's electrical system. As stated above this causes leeching of metal & piting / disolving corrosion, not deposits. Also, Any decent marine electrical panel should have a warning light for reverse polarity connections. It is most urgently in need of repair / rewiring to prevent electrocution hazards then corrosion potential.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,440
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
I think that your diver must have been referring to galvanic corrosion, caused by stray current running to / from your boat's electrical system. As stated above this causes leeching of metal & piting / disolving corrosion, not deposits. Also, Any decent marine electrical panel should have a warning light for reverse polarity connections. It is most urgently in need of repair / rewiring to prevent electrocution hazards then corrosion potential.
Galvanic corrosion is caused by two dissimilar metals being in contact with each other in an electrolyte, like seawater. It is not caused by whatever it is you described.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,146
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Galvanic corrosion is very slow because the difference in electrical potential between the two metals is less than 1 volt. Galvanic corrosion is normal and as a result we renew corroded zinc anodes every so often (commonly 6 mo - yearly.)

DC (stray) current -- for example where a battery or battery charger DC+ wire comes in contact with an underwater metal -- accelerates the rate of corrosive chemical reactions. The difference in potential between the two metals is no longer less than 1 volt and might range all the way up to battery voltage. At such accelerated rates one nearly always sees obvious white deposits attached to one of the metals while another metal has corroded away. The higher the (stray) DC voltage the more rapidly corrosion occurs.

A reverse polarity indicator alerts one to AC+ current flowing in the (white) neutral line instead of the AC (black) positive line. This presents a shock danger to persons on the boat. This situation probably does not cause wasting of underwater metals because shore power AC neutral (white) is never connected to AC green on the boat - thus never connected to the underwater metals.

Charles
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Thank you Charles. My point being that if you boat has reverse polarity is it crucial to fix the wiring polarity ASAP, because it is a serious electrocution hazard. Danger to life is the highest priority, not corrosion. Also, it is a fact that if you introduce stray current beneath a boat from bad electrical connections at the boat or dock, it will create & accelerate the process of corrosion on anything made of metal that is exposed to water. It makes no difference whether they are dissimilar metal or not. I understand what galvanic corrosion of dissimilar metals is, but almost all metal exposed under a boat is mainly S.S. or bronze, which are comparatively low on the corrosive table.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
One cannot create a potential more negative than -1000mv using zinc anodes, however the assembly can become more negative than -1000mv by using a magnesium anode in salt water, via a failed impressed current system, or if there is stray DC current which is making the shaft assembly more negative. Any of these three conditions amount to a serious threat to the boat.
My Fluke and Ag/AgCl reference cell don't necessarily agree with that.. I have measured over -1000mV many times, with zinc anodes, on glass boats, in salt water. While not much over -1000mV it can happen... Zinc anodes are an alloy not entirely made of zinc so I suspect even some "zincs" can have metals in them that can push the level slightly beyond -1000mV.......
 
Apr 2, 2011
185
Catalina 27 Niceville, FL
[This situation probably does not cause wasting of underwater metals because shore power AC neutral (white) is never connected to AC green on the boat - thus never connected to the underwater metals. ]
Charles,
Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but when you connect your boat to shore power, you have connected the neutral (white) to the ground (green) thru the dock elect panel.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,146
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
In the follow up post I tried to illustrate the reason galvanic corrosion has different symptoms compared to corrosion caused by DC stray current. If stating the galvanic potential of zinc is about -1000mv instead of -1100mv caused any distraction from this point please accept my sincere apologies. My objective was to help everyone understand why DC stray current corrosion is both more rapid and normally accompanied by deposits - deposits which the original posting cited as a concern.

AC reverse polarity is absolutely a safety threat and if present the shore power supply side needs immediate attention. However, no matter AC polarity - there should never be any connection of any AC conductor (white, black, red) to any underwater metal. And since there is no connection to the underwater metals no AC induced corrosion is possible. I have no doubt Maine Sail can explain this aspect better than I.

Charles
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Guys AC current causes little to no corrosion. There have been multiple studies on this over the years. It is DC that is the most corrosive. AC leaks can however cause DEATH. They are called "Electric Shock Drownings" or if on-board the boat and touching an energized metal item, electrocution..

Stray current corrosion or stray DC current corrosion is the culprit for the most aggressive and fastest levels of corrosion on our boats. About six times out of ten I see it coming from your own boat, not your neighbors.. I have seen thru-hulls eaten to destruction in 24 hours when a live DC cable came in contact with bilge water.

Improper wiring practices are almost always the cause of stray DC current corrosion though bilge pumps have been known to fail and leak current too..

Galvanic corrosion is what happens when dissimilar metals are submersed in an electrolyte, namely salt water. Each metal has its own electromotive potential and when all the metals are immersed in the same electrolyte you create a galvanic cell.

The zinc we use on boats has a electrical potential of about -1030mV to -1070mV (that I've measured). Graphite, like boaters often use in packing materials or PSS shaft seals has an electrical potential of +2000mV to +3000mV. In this scenario we can see that we have a pretty wide voltage spread between the anodic and more active metal zinc, and the more noble less active graphite. The further apart on the galvanic scale the metals are, the more potential for galvanic corrosion there is.

When you plug your boat into the dock the green safety ground wire for the AC system is now connected to every other boat in the marina and all their underwater metals. This is why we use galvanic isolators or isolation transformers to keep our boats isolated from our neighbors. Galvanic isolators protect well against galvanic corrosion but NOT stray DC current. Isolation transformers are the only true "isolation"....

Here is an example of where galvanic corrosion starts:

All that said this has nothing to do with reverse polarity. Reverse polarity can be a serious issue that needs to be corrected ASAP.

It can be caused by the dock wiring. This is easy to have the marina check.

It can be caused by a DIY or hack mechanic miswiring the boat.

Many times the light illuminates when high loads like heaters, water heaters, battery chargers or air conditioning are on. When this happens it usually means a bad connection, corrosion of the receptacle or dirty or corroded cord prongs. For AC to work the current on the white wire is always identical to the current on the black wire. If resistance develops AC is always looking for a path back to the source. It will take the green wire to get there and will illuminate the reverse polarity indicator while seeking its return path.

Actual reverse polarity can exist either on the dock or on-board your own vessel. It does not matter where the reversing point is, on the dock or on-board, both scenarios will energize the reverse polarity indicator and create a potential for shock hazard, electrocution or ESD.

With a faint or flickering RPI light you may not have a real reverse polarity situation but still could so check with a tester first. If faintly illuminated it is usually more likely to be a voltage drop / resistance issue if the dock and polarity tests well.. However if an older neon type light is used then it may just be weak and you could still have a reverse polarity situation. Reverse polarity testers are very inexpensive at Home Depot or Lowes.

The ABYC requirement for reverse polarity indicating lights is that they use minimum 25k Ohm Resistor. This is so they "indicate" at below the 5mA of leakage that a standard US spec GFCI will trip at.

In the old days the indicator lights were neon based and for the last 20 or so years they have been LED but all should have a 25k Ohm resistor in the circuit.. This light sits between the AC white/neutral and AC green/earth ground and responds to a reversal of the ungrounded (black) and the grounded (white) conductors .

Keep in mind that when Muffy and Skippy fire up the brand new Sea Ray, untie the dock lines, and steam away from the dock forgetting about the power cord, it is usually Darrel the dock boy and his other buddy Darrel who re-wire the dock post. Don't trust them and start with a test of the dock post for reverse polarity. If you don't have a tester ask the marina to test it for you and be there to watch it..

It is possible for the reverse polarity indicator circuit to faintly illuminate even though the circuit is properly wired. This most often occurs from resistance but some inverters and even some battery chargers have been known to cause this as well. To test this you can simply disconnect your inverter or charger or other high amp loads and see if the RPI is still faintly lit. Start by turning off all AC branch circuit breakers and only having the main AC breaker on. Does it illuminate? If not then it is likely cased by some high resistance in one of the AC circuits or the dock cord or the pedestal.

Thanks to a guy name Ohm, and his law, voltage is always consumed trying to push amperage through a wire. If the voltage differs between the beginning and end of the run or any two points in-between this is called voltage drop. Voltage drop can be caused by undersized wiring, improper or poor connections / terminations or corrosion. Bad or loose friction fits in shore power receptacles can also cause some high resistance. This difference is what can dimly illuminate a RP indicator light.

If you flip on a high amp draw load there can often be enough resistance along the neutral path to overcome the resistance in the 25,000 Ohm resistor thus lighting it faintly. High resistance is not as dangerous as sucking on live wires, but should be attended to if discovered. High resistance can start fires well before circuit breakers trip!!

Check all connections, use a tester, and make sure your AC input wiring from the dock to the panel are sufficiently sized for your loads. In some cases just trying a different dock pole and shore power cord can eliminate issues on-board and isolate them to the cord or dock post..

What ever you do find out what is causing the RPI to light and fix it..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.