I do a fair amount of night sailing, and I am constantly amazed at how much current the running lights draw. I think I read somewhere that they draw 1 to 2 amps each, and after about four hours, my masthead light is barely visible. I often have to kill it when motoring back to port just to enough power for the regular nav lights. Davis Megalights are being advertized heavily for use as anchor lights, because they draw less than 0.1 amp. Does anyone know if they are USCG approved for nav light use, because it seems easy enough (electrically) to replace the regular bulbs with Megalights. Has anyone used them to replace the regular bulbs in nav lights, or am I about to become the guinea pig again? Peter Suah s/v Raven
Replacing running light bulbs with Megalights?
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Jon Bastien
Nav Lights
Hi Peter, I think the mega-light is an LED light. I've been considering replacing all of the lighting on my boat (inside and out) with LED lighting. Only problem I've run into so far is that I can't find a "plug-in" replacement for my nav lights. The nav lights use the bulb that resembles a fuse, and the LEDs come in a form that conveniently replaces socket-type bulbs. No adaptors available yet... As far as Coast Guard certification goes, I think that they will not mind as long as the lights meet the basic requirement (visible for 2nm, I think it is), and the LED lights meet this requirement (though they aren't CG approved yet). I'll let you know if I find anthing more on this... --Jon Bastien
Hi Peter, I think the mega-light is an LED light. I've been considering replacing all of the lighting on my boat (inside and out) with LED lighting. Only problem I've run into so far is that I can't find a "plug-in" replacement for my nav lights. The nav lights use the bulb that resembles a fuse, and the LEDs come in a form that conveniently replaces socket-type bulbs. No adaptors available yet... As far as Coast Guard certification goes, I think that they will not mind as long as the lights meet the basic requirement (visible for 2nm, I think it is), and the LED lights meet this requirement (though they aren't CG approved yet). I'll let you know if I find anthing more on this... --Jon Bastien
Jon B, about those LED lights
Jon: Hmmm, without actually seeing one of these lights it's hard for me to tell how easy it would be to replace the socket and still have enough room for everything to fit back inside the existing housing. Looks like I am going to have to order one just to find out. Oh well, if it works then I will be ahead ofthe game. On a slightly different note, I am going in the opposite ditrection with my cabin lighting. In an effort to save all my electric for nav lights and autopilot, I bought a hanging oil lamp ($5 in an army surplus store). Much warmer light in the cabin than electric, and although it is bright enough to read by it doesn't kill my night vision as badly as electric does. The lamp hangs from a long folding brass hook screwed into the back of the compression post. When it's not in use, the hook folds away against the wooden bulkhead. You should try it. Peter
Jon: Hmmm, without actually seeing one of these lights it's hard for me to tell how easy it would be to replace the socket and still have enough room for everything to fit back inside the existing housing. Looks like I am going to have to order one just to find out. Oh well, if it works then I will be ahead ofthe game. On a slightly different note, I am going in the opposite ditrection with my cabin lighting. In an effort to save all my electric for nav lights and autopilot, I bought a hanging oil lamp ($5 in an army surplus store). Much warmer light in the cabin than electric, and although it is bright enough to read by it doesn't kill my night vision as badly as electric does. The lamp hangs from a long folding brass hook screwed into the back of the compression post. When it's not in use, the hook folds away against the wooden bulkhead. You should try it. Peter
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Ernie
Turn it OFF !!
According to my book, the masthead light should NOT be illuminated while sailing, Only while motoring.
According to my book, the masthead light should NOT be illuminated while sailing, Only while motoring.
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Jay Hill
Unless, of course...
...the term "masthead light" refers to a tri-color. Peter, could you give us the exact set up of running, steaming, anchor, and/or masthead lights on your boat? Is a steaming light half way up the mast or do you use the anchor light at the masthead for the steaming light under power? etc. etc.
...the term "masthead light" refers to a tri-color. Peter, could you give us the exact set up of running, steaming, anchor, and/or masthead lights on your boat? Is a steaming light half way up the mast or do you use the anchor light at the masthead for the steaming light under power? etc. etc.
Responses for Ernie and Jay
The navigation light arrangement on my 88 H23 is as follows: Bow: red/green unit just below top of pulpit (contains a single bulb) Stern: white light on stbd. side of transom Masthead: all-around white light The bow and stern lights are regular running lights, and both are controlled by the uppermost switch ("Running Lights") on the panel under the companionway. The masthead light is controlled by the third switch down ("Anchor Light") on the panel. There is no steaming light on this boat; there is no switch on the panel for it, and no lamp on the front of the mast below the masthead. Because there is no steaming light, I have to improvise with the all-around white at the masthead when motoring. I know it is not by the book. A proper steaming light is supposed above the running lights and cover the range that the red and green are visible. It is not supposed to be visible more than 22.5 degrees aft of the beam. In my case, I prefer to make sure that I am correctly seen by oncoming traffic as being under power and I am less worried about giving an overtaking vessel the false impression that I am anchored. Besides, the overtaking vessel is supposed to give way anyway. The easiest solution may be to wire a new switch to the panel and run wiring to a Megalight fixed to the front of the mast just above the spreaders...a new steaming light! The mast should obscure this light from astern and most of the way forward to the beam. I could then replace the existing masthead light with a Megalight, just in case I am ever anchored somewhere where I have to leave it on all night. Jay, by "masthead" I meant the location of the light, not the arrangement of its colors. There are masthead lights with all three running lights in one unit, but then where would the steaming light go? Ernie, technically the all-around white at the masthead is to be lit only when the boat is at anchor. When I am sailing, the only white light I show is the stern light. When I am motoring, the lack of a "real" steaming light forces me to improvise with the all-around white. Hope this clears up any confusion. Peter
The navigation light arrangement on my 88 H23 is as follows: Bow: red/green unit just below top of pulpit (contains a single bulb) Stern: white light on stbd. side of transom Masthead: all-around white light The bow and stern lights are regular running lights, and both are controlled by the uppermost switch ("Running Lights") on the panel under the companionway. The masthead light is controlled by the third switch down ("Anchor Light") on the panel. There is no steaming light on this boat; there is no switch on the panel for it, and no lamp on the front of the mast below the masthead. Because there is no steaming light, I have to improvise with the all-around white at the masthead when motoring. I know it is not by the book. A proper steaming light is supposed above the running lights and cover the range that the red and green are visible. It is not supposed to be visible more than 22.5 degrees aft of the beam. In my case, I prefer to make sure that I am correctly seen by oncoming traffic as being under power and I am less worried about giving an overtaking vessel the false impression that I am anchored. Besides, the overtaking vessel is supposed to give way anyway. The easiest solution may be to wire a new switch to the panel and run wiring to a Megalight fixed to the front of the mast just above the spreaders...a new steaming light! The mast should obscure this light from astern and most of the way forward to the beam. I could then replace the existing masthead light with a Megalight, just in case I am ever anchored somewhere where I have to leave it on all night. Jay, by "masthead" I meant the location of the light, not the arrangement of its colors. There are masthead lights with all three running lights in one unit, but then where would the steaming light go? Ernie, technically the all-around white at the masthead is to be lit only when the boat is at anchor. When I am sailing, the only white light I show is the stern light. When I am motoring, the lack of a "real" steaming light forces me to improvise with the all-around white. Hope this clears up any confusion. Peter
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Jay Hill
Well put!
Thanks Peter, now we know what arrangement you have. Your definition of masthead was my point exactly, it's a location, not a description. The only running light arrangement that could be placed at the masthead is a tricolor. (Of course, the anchor light goes there too, but it's not a "running" light.) And the tricolor can be used only under sail, hence no need for another steaming light above it. Without an official steaming light, you are absolutely correct to display the anchor light when under power, of course, you don't need me telling you that. The question now is about your original post: "I do a fair amount of night sailing, and I am constantly amazed at how much current the running lights draw. I think I read somewhere that they draw 1 to 2 amps each, and after about four hours, my masthead light is barely visible. I often have to kill it when motoring back to port just to enough power for the regular nav lights." Why are you running the masthead light (which has been confirmed as an anchor/steaming light on your boat) while you are under sail? Are you motor-sailing? The usual response from night sailors is so they can see the masthead fly (windvane). If that is your reason as well, I suggest installing a light specifically for that purpose and connect it to the "Running Lights" switch. These lights pull 150ma because they are just bright enough to make a reflection on the masthead fly reflective tape. Davis also advertises an LED cluster for a masthead fly light but it has the same illumination as the one they advertise for the anchor light meaning it is too bright for a masthead fly light. Question number two: Are you not generating enough power from the motor to run three light bulbs? You said you had to kill the anchor light while motoring in. Sounds like you may have some other current drain problem contributing to this????? Let us know what you decide.
Thanks Peter, now we know what arrangement you have. Your definition of masthead was my point exactly, it's a location, not a description. The only running light arrangement that could be placed at the masthead is a tricolor. (Of course, the anchor light goes there too, but it's not a "running" light.) And the tricolor can be used only under sail, hence no need for another steaming light above it. Without an official steaming light, you are absolutely correct to display the anchor light when under power, of course, you don't need me telling you that. The question now is about your original post: "I do a fair amount of night sailing, and I am constantly amazed at how much current the running lights draw. I think I read somewhere that they draw 1 to 2 amps each, and after about four hours, my masthead light is barely visible. I often have to kill it when motoring back to port just to enough power for the regular nav lights." Why are you running the masthead light (which has been confirmed as an anchor/steaming light on your boat) while you are under sail? Are you motor-sailing? The usual response from night sailors is so they can see the masthead fly (windvane). If that is your reason as well, I suggest installing a light specifically for that purpose and connect it to the "Running Lights" switch. These lights pull 150ma because they are just bright enough to make a reflection on the masthead fly reflective tape. Davis also advertises an LED cluster for a masthead fly light but it has the same illumination as the one they advertise for the anchor light meaning it is too bright for a masthead fly light. Question number two: Are you not generating enough power from the motor to run three light bulbs? You said you had to kill the anchor light while motoring in. Sounds like you may have some other current drain problem contributing to this????? Let us know what you decide.
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Ron
Electrical Problem??
I also sail at night from Sandy hook Nj and New York Harbor very busy area I need to know my lights are operating and will operate fro at least 6 to 8 hrs on battery. I would recommend you invest in a good quality deep cycle marine battery approx $75 and a min 10 watt better 15 watt solar panel. approx $150 west marine This insures your battery should be at full charge every time you leave the dock. In in fact sailing during the day I can run a variety of electrical devices, ie depth sounder, GPS, VHF radio all of the solar panel, at night the battery is still fully charged after a day of sailing. Also you may have a power drain in your circiut. Good luck
I also sail at night from Sandy hook Nj and New York Harbor very busy area I need to know my lights are operating and will operate fro at least 6 to 8 hrs on battery. I would recommend you invest in a good quality deep cycle marine battery approx $75 and a min 10 watt better 15 watt solar panel. approx $150 west marine This insures your battery should be at full charge every time you leave the dock. In in fact sailing during the day I can run a variety of electrical devices, ie depth sounder, GPS, VHF radio all of the solar panel, at night the battery is still fully charged after a day of sailing. Also you may have a power drain in your circiut. Good luck
Let's see if I can clear up the confusion
I think I see where the confusion came from. I forgot to include the fact that my rear (white) running light died two weeks ago, so I had to use the masthead all-around white a couple of times. Sorry about the omission. I also suspect that I may be having electrical problems. I have a 12V deep cycle marine battery wired in parallel with a Uni-Solar 10W flexible solar panel. I don't have a charger at the moment, but a friend of mine (also an H23 owner) gave my battery a clean bill of health after charging it at his place a few weeks ago. Among other things, he checked the specific gravity of the electrolytre, so I am pretty confident with his assessment. BTW, a 10W panel seems to be adequate here in Florida for charging batteries. I have even seen boats with a single 5W panel. I am presently experimenting with different ways of placing the panel on the boat to see if I am just doing it wrong. The best place so far seems to be leaned up against the back of the cabin. When I checked the battery today it was at 13.2V after five days of charging from 11.9V. Maybe I'm just not giving it enough time to charge properly??? Peter
I think I see where the confusion came from. I forgot to include the fact that my rear (white) running light died two weeks ago, so I had to use the masthead all-around white a couple of times. Sorry about the omission. I also suspect that I may be having electrical problems. I have a 12V deep cycle marine battery wired in parallel with a Uni-Solar 10W flexible solar panel. I don't have a charger at the moment, but a friend of mine (also an H23 owner) gave my battery a clean bill of health after charging it at his place a few weeks ago. Among other things, he checked the specific gravity of the electrolytre, so I am pretty confident with his assessment. BTW, a 10W panel seems to be adequate here in Florida for charging batteries. I have even seen boats with a single 5W panel. I am presently experimenting with different ways of placing the panel on the boat to see if I am just doing it wrong. The best place so far seems to be leaned up against the back of the cabin. When I checked the battery today it was at 13.2V after five days of charging from 11.9V. Maybe I'm just not giving it enough time to charge properly??? Peter
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Jay Hill
Adequate Depends on Usage
Thanks for the clarification, Peter, changes things slightly and "now I understand" Concerning the "10W is enough" depends entirely on the usage the batteries get versus the amount of charge time they get. For example, the amount of amperage provided by a 10W solar panel is not near the amperage you get out of a permanent battery charger. If you use the the boat for, say, 6-8 hours of night usage, it might take 3 or 4 of the shortened winter days to recharge to full capacity. If you came back out to the boat, on the second or third day and used the lights again, well, more drainage. Three days later the weekend is here and it's time to sail two nights in a row. As you can see, your usage (in this scenario) is far exceeding the charge time required from a solar panel to completely recharge the battery. I agree that 10W is enough to charge batteries for those folks that come out in fair weather only and no more than once per week??? Now another thing to consider. If you're motoring in (outboard with spark plug, I suspect) it is entirely possible, that your motor may have something wrong with the ignition/alternator circuitry/wiring and the motor is running off of the battery, consuming precious charge, and NOT charging the battery instead. Still one more thing is the integrity of the solar panel. I'm not an expert on this by any means, but it seems to me that if you are moving the solar panel around, there is the possibility that it has become damaged in some tiny little way you might not notice. You might want to have it checked for optimum output as well. Just an idea. Anybody else?
Thanks for the clarification, Peter, changes things slightly and "now I understand" Concerning the "10W is enough" depends entirely on the usage the batteries get versus the amount of charge time they get. For example, the amount of amperage provided by a 10W solar panel is not near the amperage you get out of a permanent battery charger. If you use the the boat for, say, 6-8 hours of night usage, it might take 3 or 4 of the shortened winter days to recharge to full capacity. If you came back out to the boat, on the second or third day and used the lights again, well, more drainage. Three days later the weekend is here and it's time to sail two nights in a row. As you can see, your usage (in this scenario) is far exceeding the charge time required from a solar panel to completely recharge the battery. I agree that 10W is enough to charge batteries for those folks that come out in fair weather only and no more than once per week??? Now another thing to consider. If you're motoring in (outboard with spark plug, I suspect) it is entirely possible, that your motor may have something wrong with the ignition/alternator circuitry/wiring and the motor is running off of the battery, consuming precious charge, and NOT charging the battery instead. Still one more thing is the integrity of the solar panel. I'm not an expert on this by any means, but it seems to me that if you are moving the solar panel around, there is the possibility that it has become damaged in some tiny little way you might not notice. You might want to have it checked for optimum output as well. Just an idea. Anybody else?
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ED KNEBEL
BATTERY SULFATION
Batteries are a science(some might say that boarders on the mystical). A simple no load voltage is a mere indicator, not a validation of the battery current capacity. A battery fresh off the charger should read 13.8-14.2 volts. Only reading 13.2vdc idicates sulfation(sulfur oxide precipitated to the bottom of the battery plates, causing the battery to discharge itself). The primary cause of sulfation is deep discharges(below 50%capacity) and not charging to 14.2v to reverse sulfation. You should be able to get 50-60 amp/hours(50% discharge) from a series 27 deep cycle battery(120 amp/hr capacity). So your lights would be bright(at about 12.3v) after 30 hours(2amps x 30 hours=60amp/hours). As others have said, you may have additional current drain(solar panels drain current in the dark, unless a diode is installed). Put an ampmeter in series at the battery with everything off(should read 0.0)then start the engine, connect the solar cells, etc. A final comment on regulations,and USCG approval. If your vessel is not in compliance, using only unaltered USCG approved equipment, you have created a "statutory fault" and are therefore considered by definition "at fault" for anything bad that occurs, colisions, sinkings,or deaths. This will not become an issue if you are not involved in litigation, but if you are, you are automatically guilty. There was a case of a 26 ft sailboat that was at achor using a 6 volt Guest anchor light. The light was marketed as a anchor light, but was not USCG approved for use as a anchor light. The sailboat was struck by a powerboat at high speed in a small creek, with resulting fatalities. The sailboat captain was found guilty of causing the accident... because he had created a statutory fault, nevermind the speed of the powerboat in a small creek. Shakespere was right" Death to all the lawyers". I love sailing at night also, good luck with your battery(a new one will help, and last with proper charging).
Batteries are a science(some might say that boarders on the mystical). A simple no load voltage is a mere indicator, not a validation of the battery current capacity. A battery fresh off the charger should read 13.8-14.2 volts. Only reading 13.2vdc idicates sulfation(sulfur oxide precipitated to the bottom of the battery plates, causing the battery to discharge itself). The primary cause of sulfation is deep discharges(below 50%capacity) and not charging to 14.2v to reverse sulfation. You should be able to get 50-60 amp/hours(50% discharge) from a series 27 deep cycle battery(120 amp/hr capacity). So your lights would be bright(at about 12.3v) after 30 hours(2amps x 30 hours=60amp/hours). As others have said, you may have additional current drain(solar panels drain current in the dark, unless a diode is installed). Put an ampmeter in series at the battery with everything off(should read 0.0)then start the engine, connect the solar cells, etc. A final comment on regulations,and USCG approval. If your vessel is not in compliance, using only unaltered USCG approved equipment, you have created a "statutory fault" and are therefore considered by definition "at fault" for anything bad that occurs, colisions, sinkings,or deaths. This will not become an issue if you are not involved in litigation, but if you are, you are automatically guilty. There was a case of a 26 ft sailboat that was at achor using a 6 volt Guest anchor light. The light was marketed as a anchor light, but was not USCG approved for use as a anchor light. The sailboat was struck by a powerboat at high speed in a small creek, with resulting fatalities. The sailboat captain was found guilty of causing the accident... because he had created a statutory fault, nevermind the speed of the powerboat in a small creek. Shakespere was right" Death to all the lawyers". I love sailing at night also, good luck with your battery(a new one will help, and last with proper charging).
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Jon Bastien
Questions, LED info, USCG statutes
Whoa, I get away from HOW for a few days, and look how far I fall behind! Questions: My first question is about the battery that was given to you with a clean bill of health-- How did that fare? Do you still have the problem of the lights going dim after a short period with this 'fresh' battery? My second question is about your battery usage - Do you run a lot of gear with the battery (Autopilots and stereo equipment are notorious battery killers), or do you just run the lights? My thoughts run similar to those previously posted - Either you're not allowing enough charging time/power, or there's an electrical problem aboard your boat that discharges your battery faster than your charging system can properly charge it. If it's just usage, I can see how low-amperage lighting would help, but perhaps you need more juice on board- a second battery? LED Lighting Info: As an aside, I can point you to a web site regarding LED replacement bulbs- Go to http://www.boatlighting.com and click on the 'LED Replacement lights' link. At the bottom of the page, there is a picture showing the type of bulb bases the LEDs can be ordered with. USCG Statutes: The statutory fault comments are an interesting point to consider. Maybe I should re-think replacing the nav light bulbs... At least, until I figure out why they're not USCG approved (anybody know what the approval process for new equipment is? ;o). Seems to me that the point could be debated that I'm just planning to replace the bulb (not the fixture), and the bulb exceeds the USCG requirements for visability. --Jon Bastien H23 '2 Sheets to the Wind'
Whoa, I get away from HOW for a few days, and look how far I fall behind! Questions: My first question is about the battery that was given to you with a clean bill of health-- How did that fare? Do you still have the problem of the lights going dim after a short period with this 'fresh' battery? My second question is about your battery usage - Do you run a lot of gear with the battery (Autopilots and stereo equipment are notorious battery killers), or do you just run the lights? My thoughts run similar to those previously posted - Either you're not allowing enough charging time/power, or there's an electrical problem aboard your boat that discharges your battery faster than your charging system can properly charge it. If it's just usage, I can see how low-amperage lighting would help, but perhaps you need more juice on board- a second battery? LED Lighting Info: As an aside, I can point you to a web site regarding LED replacement bulbs- Go to http://www.boatlighting.com and click on the 'LED Replacement lights' link. At the bottom of the page, there is a picture showing the type of bulb bases the LEDs can be ordered with. USCG Statutes: The statutory fault comments are an interesting point to consider. Maybe I should re-think replacing the nav light bulbs... At least, until I figure out why they're not USCG approved (anybody know what the approval process for new equipment is? ;o). Seems to me that the point could be debated that I'm just planning to replace the bulb (not the fixture), and the bulb exceeds the USCG requirements for visability. --Jon Bastien H23 '2 Sheets to the Wind'
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