1984 H31 I am ready to rip all my marine head plumbing out and install a good 'ol porta pottie. I removed the head, installed a rebuild kit and put it back in and noticed a BAD crimp in the sanitation line coming from the top of the holding tank. I tried to fix it and it tore, so I tried to remove it, so as to replace that section. After snatching, pulling and knocking all the bark off my elbows and knuckles, I realize that to remove the plumbing, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE WHOLE BATHROOM APART. I can barely see the plumbing, let alone actually reach the hose clamps and muscle them from fittings. I am not willing to do this. I am fed up with marine heads, as they all stink, and it practically takes a scientist like Peggie to manage one properly. Oh, and the 1 1/2" lines would break my bank anyway if I replaced them all. My porta pottie on my old Oday 25 never stunk and always functioned fine. I'm not a world cruiser anyway. If anyone would weigh in on my plight, I would really appreciate it. I don't want to reduce the value of my boat, but I don't have the patience for a job like this. Thanks
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hire a pro
Gary: Sometime you have got to know when to hold'em, sometimes you have got to know when to fold'em. This is not an easy job. Getting those stiff ol' hoses through those tiny tunnels is a SOB. If you decide to continue with this project, you may want to get some lube to put on the hoses. Electricans use this stuff to pull wires through their conduit. I would think that there are other products that would work just as well. Another option is to use some elbows so you do not need to bend that stiff hose. I paid someone to do mine several years ago and it has been fine for over 10 years. If you want something that is stinky, try a port-a-pottie!!!
Gary: Sometime you have got to know when to hold'em, sometimes you have got to know when to fold'em. This is not an easy job. Getting those stiff ol' hoses through those tiny tunnels is a SOB. If you decide to continue with this project, you may want to get some lube to put on the hoses. Electricans use this stuff to pull wires through their conduit. I would think that there are other products that would work just as well. Another option is to use some elbows so you do not need to bend that stiff hose. I paid someone to do mine several years ago and it has been fine for over 10 years. If you want something that is stinky, try a port-a-pottie!!!
I wish you'd asked for advice before you tackled
this project...'cuz there are some tricks to it that make it a LOT easier than what you've been through. And you don't have to be a scientist, either...I'm not! I suspect you can blame a PO for both crimp and the rip in your hose...overheating it to bend it tighter than it wants to bend willingly will do that. As for replacing the hoses..you don't have to take the "bathroom" apart. You can pull the old hose out and the new hose through in the same operation. And btw, the best hose on the planet is only $5.50/ft...hardly a bank breaker. However, at this point I think Steve's advice is good: hire it done.
this project...'cuz there are some tricks to it that make it a LOT easier than what you've been through. And you don't have to be a scientist, either...I'm not! I suspect you can blame a PO for both crimp and the rip in your hose...overheating it to bend it tighter than it wants to bend willingly will do that. As for replacing the hoses..you don't have to take the "bathroom" apart. You can pull the old hose out and the new hose through in the same operation. And btw, the best hose on the planet is only $5.50/ft...hardly a bank breaker. However, at this point I think Steve's advice is good: hire it done.
Peggie, Maybe this is the answer.....
Very interesting idea here. How would you plumb this setup and which self contained head would you recommend? You wrote the following: Now for the downside to your plan: Because portapotties use so much less flush water than marine toilets, you'll need at least an 15-18 gallon--20 would be better--tank to gain any real capacity advantage (the number of flushes each will hold) over a 5-6 gal. portapotty. You'll be trading off a system that has almost no plumbing for one that has a seacock to worry about keeping closed, a toilet that must be maintained and kept lubricated, odor in the head from sea water trapped in the head intake, hoses that can permeate, and loss of storage space to house the tank. If you stick with a 5-6 gallon portapotty, permanently installed and fitted for pumpout instead of one that has to be carried ashore, you'll have all the convenience of a marine toilet and holding tank with none of the problems...and save at least $300.
Very interesting idea here. How would you plumb this setup and which self contained head would you recommend? You wrote the following: Now for the downside to your plan: Because portapotties use so much less flush water than marine toilets, you'll need at least an 15-18 gallon--20 would be better--tank to gain any real capacity advantage (the number of flushes each will hold) over a 5-6 gal. portapotty. You'll be trading off a system that has almost no plumbing for one that has a seacock to worry about keeping closed, a toilet that must be maintained and kept lubricated, odor in the head from sea water trapped in the head intake, hoses that can permeate, and loss of storage space to house the tank. If you stick with a 5-6 gallon portapotty, permanently installed and fitted for pumpout instead of one that has to be carried ashore, you'll have all the convenience of a marine toilet and holding tank with none of the problems...and save at least $300.
The H31 is particularly difficut...
and you're not alone. I did my former H31 and lost a lot of skin and bark in the process. I've since done my H375 and it was soooo much easier. On the 31, there's just no easy way to reach the connections. I considered taking the head apart too, but somehow worked my arms into the cracks and crevises as needed. I'd work it a while, stop, cuss, take a break. Then repeat the process. Seems that I wound up having to heat the new hose to make one or two of the bends - I know it's bad, but there's no other way to do it. Reconnecting to the deck pump-out plate is very difficult. If you do it, remember to connect the hose to the plate above deck first. Then feed it back down into the hull and connect that end. I learned that the hard way.
and you're not alone. I did my former H31 and lost a lot of skin and bark in the process. I've since done my H375 and it was soooo much easier. On the 31, there's just no easy way to reach the connections. I considered taking the head apart too, but somehow worked my arms into the cracks and crevises as needed. I'd work it a while, stop, cuss, take a break. Then repeat the process. Seems that I wound up having to heat the new hose to make one or two of the bends - I know it's bad, but there's no other way to do it. Reconnecting to the deck pump-out plate is very difficult. If you do it, remember to connect the hose to the plate above deck first. Then feed it back down into the hull and connect that end. I learned that the hard way.
Gary and Don...
There IS an alternative to heating hose to bend it: Break it and insert an inline radius fitting. Not only does this prevent the problem illustrated by the attached photo, but it actually makes the job a lot easier, because you can put the fitting on one hose end...put it where it needs to go ... then put the hose on the other end...instead of struggling to force the hose around a bend. As for which self contained system: Both Thetford and SeaLand offer 5-6 gal "portapotties" designed to be permananently installed and fitted for pumpout. The SeaLand 965MSD is the better quality.
There IS an alternative to heating hose to bend it: Break it and insert an inline radius fitting. Not only does this prevent the problem illustrated by the attached photo, but it actually makes the job a lot easier, because you can put the fitting on one hose end...put it where it needs to go ... then put the hose on the other end...instead of struggling to force the hose around a bend. As for which self contained system: Both Thetford and SeaLand offer 5-6 gal "portapotties" designed to be permananently installed and fitted for pumpout. The SeaLand 965MSD is the better quality.
Thanks Peggie and others.....
I just ordered the Thetford 875 MSD, and will permanantly mount and plumb for pumpout. Like you said Peggie, "all the convenience of a marine toilet and holding tank with none of the problems". I really think this will suite my purpose fine. Thanks so much to you guys for the advice. Tomorrow I start cutting all that stinkin hose out. My Hunter 31 has a molded-in holding tank under the V berth. Do I dare to cut out the top, clean (real good) and use for storage? Doesn't sound fun.
I just ordered the Thetford 875 MSD, and will permanantly mount and plumb for pumpout. Like you said Peggie, "all the convenience of a marine toilet and holding tank with none of the problems". I really think this will suite my purpose fine. Thanks so much to you guys for the advice. Tomorrow I start cutting all that stinkin hose out. My Hunter 31 has a molded-in holding tank under the V berth. Do I dare to cut out the top, clean (real good) and use for storage? Doesn't sound fun.
Removing hoses
They'll come off the fittings a lot easier if you heat 'em first. I've found a blow dryer to be the easiest way to do that. Warm 'em a little, then use a little dish soap to lubricate when you connect to the Thetford unit and pumpout fitting. Btw...are you in Ed Orton's marina?
They'll come off the fittings a lot easier if you heat 'em first. I've found a blow dryer to be the easiest way to do that. Warm 'em a little, then use a little dish soap to lubricate when you connect to the Thetford unit and pumpout fitting. Btw...are you in Ed Orton's marina?
You will never be able to clean it
I cut the entire tank out of my boat and replaced with a plastic tank. It is sitting in my garage and I have tried cleaning just the lid several times because I was hoping to reuse it to cover the opening. It still stinks the whole garage up even after several cleanings and 3 months. I ended up making a plywood lid. So I would not only recommend not using the tank for storage but I will caution that you will need to cap the hose fittings so the oder is contained, but I would leave the vent fitting or the tank could build up pressure inside. BTW - removing the tank has solved my oder problems. I had both the bilge oder problem which I solved first and then an oder leak from the upper tank hose fitting which was not completely glassed to the tank, and oder from the chalked seal around the tank lid.
I cut the entire tank out of my boat and replaced with a plastic tank. It is sitting in my garage and I have tried cleaning just the lid several times because I was hoping to reuse it to cover the opening. It still stinks the whole garage up even after several cleanings and 3 months. I ended up making a plywood lid. So I would not only recommend not using the tank for storage but I will caution that you will need to cap the hose fittings so the oder is contained, but I would leave the vent fitting or the tank could build up pressure inside. BTW - removing the tank has solved my oder problems. I had both the bilge oder problem which I solved first and then an oder leak from the upper tank hose fitting which was not completely glassed to the tank, and oder from the chalked seal around the tank lid.
Peggie and Brett....
Brett, thanks for the info. Look at the pic of the top tank exit. I think mine could have not been glassed in properly also. Peggie, Not sure if I know Ed...might be one of those faces I know but not the name. Pirate's Cove marina did not rebuild any of the slips following Ivan....so now there's only a few behind the restaurant. So almost everyone had to scatter, and he may have been one of these. I will bother you once more for info. I want to plumb my new self contained head for deck pumpout and overboard (of course, when legal) and I'm not sure of the best way to do this. I have a "Y", ball valves, and pump, etc. that I'll re-use after cleaning. You wouldn't know where there's a diagram of this would you? Also, I'm confused as to where to put the hand pump, knowing that it must be at the lowest point, but the holding tank is beneath the head??? Thanks much
Brett, thanks for the info. Look at the pic of the top tank exit. I think mine could have not been glassed in properly also. Peggie, Not sure if I know Ed...might be one of those faces I know but not the name. Pirate's Cove marina did not rebuild any of the slips following Ivan....so now there's only a few behind the restaurant. So almost everyone had to scatter, and he may have been one of these. I will bother you once more for info. I want to plumb my new self contained head for deck pumpout and overboard (of course, when legal) and I'm not sure of the best way to do this. I have a "Y", ball valves, and pump, etc. that I'll re-use after cleaning. You wouldn't know where there's a diagram of this would you? Also, I'm confused as to where to put the hand pump, knowing that it must be at the lowest point, but the holding tank is beneath the head??? Thanks much
Pump doesn't have to be at lowest point
Any manual diaphragm pump that can't prime if it's above a portapotty is in SAD shape...many of 'em are well above remote tanks for easy access. And you don't need a diagram either...just put the pump and y-valve (y-valve first, then pump) in readily accessible locations. Depending on the age of the pump, you might want to consider rebuilding it, as long as you have to take it apart to clean it anyway. And grease the y-valve while you have it apart to clean it. Ed's marina is far enough inland that it shouldn't have seen much damage from Katrina...so I guess you're in a different Pirate's Cove.
Any manual diaphragm pump that can't prime if it's above a portapotty is in SAD shape...many of 'em are well above remote tanks for easy access. And you don't need a diagram either...just put the pump and y-valve (y-valve first, then pump) in readily accessible locations. Depending on the age of the pump, you might want to consider rebuilding it, as long as you have to take it apart to clean it anyway. And grease the y-valve while you have it apart to clean it. Ed's marina is far enough inland that it shouldn't have seen much damage from Katrina...so I guess you're in a different Pirate's Cove.
Head Plumbing...Very tight space here
The pic shows what I've got to work with. You can see the thru hulls under the sink. The tank on the Thetford 875 will be slightly below waterline so I guess I'll need a vented loop too? Question.....I've never used a pumpout station before. Does their equipment include a smaller hose that goes down thru my deck fitting all the way to liquid, or does it seal on the deck fitting and purge the air, sucking the liquid up from the tank? Also, if I install a diaphram pump, do I use my pump to push liquid out, or their pump to suck it out? I know these are elementary questions, but this is all new to me. One more question......I read an article written by someone who's in the know, and he said the proper way to flush a marine head is to pump 5-10 times to get water in the head, then 10-20 times to get all the waste out of the head, then 5-10 more times to for some other reason. Sheesh, I counted a possible 40 pumps for one use! Can this be accurate? If so, I could get almost as many flushes with my 6 gallon tank as with my 20 gallon I have plugged off.
The pic shows what I've got to work with. You can see the thru hulls under the sink. The tank on the Thetford 875 will be slightly below waterline so I guess I'll need a vented loop too? Question.....I've never used a pumpout station before. Does their equipment include a smaller hose that goes down thru my deck fitting all the way to liquid, or does it seal on the deck fitting and purge the air, sucking the liquid up from the tank? Also, if I install a diaphram pump, do I use my pump to push liquid out, or their pump to suck it out? I know these are elementary questions, but this is all new to me. One more question......I read an article written by someone who's in the know, and he said the proper way to flush a marine head is to pump 5-10 times to get water in the head, then 10-20 times to get all the waste out of the head, then 5-10 more times to for some other reason. Sheesh, I counted a possible 40 pumps for one use! Can this be accurate? If so, I could get almost as many flushes with my 6 gallon tank as with my 20 gallon I have plugged off.
Questions one at a time...
"The tank on the Thetford 875 will be slightly below waterline so I guess I'll need a vented loop too?" Technically, yes. BUT--if you mount the pump above the potty, you can get away without one...IF you make sure to keep the thru-hull closed at all times except when dumping the tank. "I've never used a pumpout station before...." Piece of cake. The pumpout hose connects to the deck fitting...then sucks out the tank. It's as simple as that. Just make sure your vent never becomes blocked. No, you don't use your pump...the pumpout does it all. It'll be obvious to you the first time you use one. I suggest you drop by to see how it works before you do. You can rinse out the tank by opening the flush "dome" and sticking a hose (NOT the one you use to fill your fresh water tank!) into the tank during pumpout. I read an article written by someone who's in the know, and he said the proper way to flush a marine head is...Sheesh, I counted a possible 40 pumps for one use! Can this be accurate? Obviously written by someone who's never used a holding tank NOr has apparently ever discovered that manual toilets have a "dry" mode (who IS this so-called "person in the know???")! But fortunately not something you'll have to worry about...'cuz your potty doesn't have a pump...you'll just pull out a flush lever. That'll start water flowing...about a pint to rinse the bowl...let go of the flush lever. But even if you were to keep your marine toilet and tank, you wouldn't have to do what he recommends. Pump a couple of times to wet the bowl...switch to "dry." After use--in the dry mode--pump enough times to move the bowl contents to the tank (any marine toilet that's working anywhere near spec can move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode)...switch to wet for enough flushes to rinse the bowl...back to dry, pump the rinse water all the way to the tank. Volume, about 2 quarts. Btw...if the tank is plastic and in good condition, you might consider keeping it...in case it turns out that you need a bit more capacity than the Thetford tank. You'd only have to re-route the overboard discharge hose and pump to go into it, and put another pump and y-valve in its discharge line. On second thought, never mind...
"The tank on the Thetford 875 will be slightly below waterline so I guess I'll need a vented loop too?" Technically, yes. BUT--if you mount the pump above the potty, you can get away without one...IF you make sure to keep the thru-hull closed at all times except when dumping the tank. "I've never used a pumpout station before...." Piece of cake. The pumpout hose connects to the deck fitting...then sucks out the tank. It's as simple as that. Just make sure your vent never becomes blocked. No, you don't use your pump...the pumpout does it all. It'll be obvious to you the first time you use one. I suggest you drop by to see how it works before you do. You can rinse out the tank by opening the flush "dome" and sticking a hose (NOT the one you use to fill your fresh water tank!) into the tank during pumpout. I read an article written by someone who's in the know, and he said the proper way to flush a marine head is...Sheesh, I counted a possible 40 pumps for one use! Can this be accurate? Obviously written by someone who's never used a holding tank NOr has apparently ever discovered that manual toilets have a "dry" mode (who IS this so-called "person in the know???")! But fortunately not something you'll have to worry about...'cuz your potty doesn't have a pump...you'll just pull out a flush lever. That'll start water flowing...about a pint to rinse the bowl...let go of the flush lever. But even if you were to keep your marine toilet and tank, you wouldn't have to do what he recommends. Pump a couple of times to wet the bowl...switch to "dry." After use--in the dry mode--pump enough times to move the bowl contents to the tank (any marine toilet that's working anywhere near spec can move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode)...switch to wet for enough flushes to rinse the bowl...back to dry, pump the rinse water all the way to the tank. Volume, about 2 quarts. Btw...if the tank is plastic and in good condition, you might consider keeping it...in case it turns out that you need a bit more capacity than the Thetford tank. You'd only have to re-route the overboard discharge hose and pump to go into it, and put another pump and y-valve in its discharge line. On second thought, never mind...
Got it.....finally
Very good info Peggie. Thanks. Wow....1/2 gallon per flush with marine head, and 1 pt. per flush with the Thetford. Do the math and that works out to ~40 flushes with my old marine head with its 20 gallon tank and all its stinkin plumbing, and ~48 flushes with the Thetford and its 6 gallon tank. I know this is approximate, but this is the info I was hoping for. Oh yea, and the vent to the old tank was long and almost completely horizontal with several dips , so I know it was contributing. The new one will only be about 5 ft. straight up. You are a Godsend.
Very good info Peggie. Thanks. Wow....1/2 gallon per flush with marine head, and 1 pt. per flush with the Thetford. Do the math and that works out to ~40 flushes with my old marine head with its 20 gallon tank and all its stinkin plumbing, and ~48 flushes with the Thetford and its 6 gallon tank. I know this is approximate, but this is the info I was hoping for. Oh yea, and the vent to the old tank was long and almost completely horizontal with several dips , so I know it was contributing. The new one will only be about 5 ft. straight up. You are a Godsend.
How long was the vent?
The straighter and closer to horizontal the vent line is (without the dips), the better. However length is a consideration too. Btw...you want to use Odorlos in the new tank--according to directions on the bottle.
The straighter and closer to horizontal the vent line is (without the dips), the better. However length is a consideration too. Btw...you want to use Odorlos in the new tank--according to directions on the bottle.
The vent is....
going to be about 5-6 feet long at about a 25-30 degree angle. Must have read you wrong, was thinking that the vent should be closer to vertical than horizontal. 10-4 on the Odorlos.
going to be about 5-6 feet long at about a 25-30 degree angle. Must have read you wrong, was thinking that the vent should be closer to vertical than horizontal. 10-4 on the Odorlos.
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