Has anyone replaced the valve on the thru-hull that drains the water from the cockpit drains on a pre'86 C-22? Mine is rather siezed, and now I think that it is starting to leak where it goes onto the nipple that goes through the hull. I have to admit I am rather afriad to put a big wrench on this valve, because I think that it might just strip the nipple right out of the fiberglass. I think I would be more inclined to saw off the valve above the nipple, and then take a Dremmel tool with a little disk and cut the remaining pieces off. The valve has been on there for 23 years, so I don't think that it will be too easy to get off. Does anyone know if the thru-hull nipple is made from brass or steel? (I doubt that it is made from plastic). I guess I could figure it out with a magnet or a magnetic studfinder. Thanks, Aldo
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Oh, I replaced that valve
Aldo, on my C-22 which is a 1982 model built in August (I beleive) of 1981, I replaced that very valve as one of the first corrective items when I purchased the boat in June of 1991. So, when I did mine, the valve was about ten years old. At the time I didn't have a clue about how dangerous it is to remove it. Although I think I instictively placed a pipe / monkey wrench onto the brass tube imbeded into the "volcano", I really cannot remember just how I got it off. Nevertheless, just as others get their keel bolts off without breaking them, I successfully removed the valve without damage to the "volcano". I am nearly 100% sure that your through hull is brass as mine is. Now, that means it is probably not a good idea to put a bronze valve onto that through hull as the different metals will have some of that good old elctrolysis. I use a Forespar Marlon valve which I beleive is glass reinforced nylon. Now two more notes about that valve. First, these "plastic" valves are known to have their handles break off. In fact I just did that on a freind's boat this past weekend on a Forspar Marlon 1 1/2 inch seacock that had been on the boat for twenty years. When we traveled to West Marine to check out the availiability and expense of these valves, we noted that the manufacturer reccomends that they are greased twice a year with a good waterproof grease. I would take that very seriously and do at least in the fall when the boat is hauled and then double check before your spring launch. Second, for some reason I recall that this particular valve on the C-22 has a 3/4 inch female threaded opening on the top to accomodate the 3/4 inch scupper tubes and then a 1/2 inch female threaded opening on the bottom. But this is only a vague memory, as that would be very unusual and it probably has a 3/4 inch opening on the bottom. Nevertheless, be forewarned to take your old valve with you when you get a new one and test fit both the old and new ends with a similar piece of pipe to make absolutlely sure. I may be confusing this with my toilet intake valve which is 1/2 inch and thereby cusing my memory problems. Also, I beleive Forespar states to use teflon tape for sealing their valves. I think if that still leaks for you, then silicone which does not effect plastic is the right choice on the threads.
Aldo, on my C-22 which is a 1982 model built in August (I beleive) of 1981, I replaced that very valve as one of the first corrective items when I purchased the boat in June of 1991. So, when I did mine, the valve was about ten years old. At the time I didn't have a clue about how dangerous it is to remove it. Although I think I instictively placed a pipe / monkey wrench onto the brass tube imbeded into the "volcano", I really cannot remember just how I got it off. Nevertheless, just as others get their keel bolts off without breaking them, I successfully removed the valve without damage to the "volcano". I am nearly 100% sure that your through hull is brass as mine is. Now, that means it is probably not a good idea to put a bronze valve onto that through hull as the different metals will have some of that good old elctrolysis. I use a Forespar Marlon valve which I beleive is glass reinforced nylon. Now two more notes about that valve. First, these "plastic" valves are known to have their handles break off. In fact I just did that on a freind's boat this past weekend on a Forspar Marlon 1 1/2 inch seacock that had been on the boat for twenty years. When we traveled to West Marine to check out the availiability and expense of these valves, we noted that the manufacturer reccomends that they are greased twice a year with a good waterproof grease. I would take that very seriously and do at least in the fall when the boat is hauled and then double check before your spring launch. Second, for some reason I recall that this particular valve on the C-22 has a 3/4 inch female threaded opening on the top to accomodate the 3/4 inch scupper tubes and then a 1/2 inch female threaded opening on the bottom. But this is only a vague memory, as that would be very unusual and it probably has a 3/4 inch opening on the bottom. Nevertheless, be forewarned to take your old valve with you when you get a new one and test fit both the old and new ends with a similar piece of pipe to make absolutlely sure. I may be confusing this with my toilet intake valve which is 1/2 inch and thereby cusing my memory problems. Also, I beleive Forespar states to use teflon tape for sealing their valves. I think if that still leaks for you, then silicone which does not effect plastic is the right choice on the threads.
it will come off with care
Hi Aldo I do not recall where I read it but it was either in a Catalina manual or on a website they talked about this issue. They pointed out very clearly that if you are not carefull you will twist out that Brass pipe from the volcano. They were very clear to do it on only dry land as it has a 50 50 chance of twisting out. If it did I do not think that it would take much to glass a new one in. I have not done mine yet on a 72 C22 but I can tell you I will be planning on replacing the entire pipe and valve as I am sure it will not stay put. As for the dissimilar metals I agree with Baynard. However if using plastic valves I would use teflon tape as well as telfon paste and you will not have a leak problem. Good luck and let us know how it goes . herb
Hi Aldo I do not recall where I read it but it was either in a Catalina manual or on a website they talked about this issue. They pointed out very clearly that if you are not carefull you will twist out that Brass pipe from the volcano. They were very clear to do it on only dry land as it has a 50 50 chance of twisting out. If it did I do not think that it would take much to glass a new one in. I have not done mine yet on a 72 C22 but I can tell you I will be planning on replacing the entire pipe and valve as I am sure it will not stay put. As for the dissimilar metals I agree with Baynard. However if using plastic valves I would use teflon tape as well as telfon paste and you will not have a leak problem. Good luck and let us know how it goes . herb
C22 Through Hulls
Aldo The C25 folks call 'em "to-hulls." Try their website (c25/c250.org) and/or the C22 website for more input and advice. The recommendations to you to take care given here are very valid. Stu
Aldo The C25 folks call 'em "to-hulls." Try their website (c25/c250.org) and/or the C22 website for more input and advice. The recommendations to you to take care given here are very valid. Stu
THRU HULLS
The pipe nipples in the volcano thru hulls are bronze. If they were brass they'd be gone by now if your boat is used in salt water. Nevertheless, they are dangerous and should be replaced by a serious thru hull. I have posted a long description of replacing volcano thru hulls in the archives. Do a search in the archives in replies for "Thru Hulls" and you should find it right away. It describes doing all of the thru hulls on a Cat 27 but yours will be the same process. It is not a good idea to put plastic sea cocks or valves on metal fittings. The tapered pipe threads work like wedges when they are screwed in and can split the plastic fittings. Bronze is much stronger and safer and the price difference is really small compared to sinking your boat.
The pipe nipples in the volcano thru hulls are bronze. If they were brass they'd be gone by now if your boat is used in salt water. Nevertheless, they are dangerous and should be replaced by a serious thru hull. I have posted a long description of replacing volcano thru hulls in the archives. Do a search in the archives in replies for "Thru Hulls" and you should find it right away. It describes doing all of the thru hulls on a Cat 27 but yours will be the same process. It is not a good idea to put plastic sea cocks or valves on metal fittings. The tapered pipe threads work like wedges when they are screwed in and can split the plastic fittings. Bronze is much stronger and safer and the price difference is really small compared to sinking your boat.
C-22 swing keel cockpit drain thru hull
Garry, I read your excellent description on the procedures for replacing a seacock / thru hull with that ever so wonderful Catalina “volcano”. However, the particular thru hull that Aldo (and I for that matter) must content with in no way allows a “proper” thru hull. You see, on early (pre-85?) swing keel C-22’s, the cockpit drains flow down to a point amidships that is located directly on top of the end of the curved hump of a slot on the bottom that goes around the top edge of the swing keel when it is up. A nice sharp convex curve repeated in the concave on the bottom. Putting a proper thru hull here would be akin to putting a respectfully sized thru hull for a fire hydrant onto the drive shaft hump on a Crown Vic or perhaps the transmission hump on an old VW assuming the bottom plate was missing. (Of course later I will find out that Monster Garage does this.) Therefore, just about the only possible thru hull that can be successfully placed there is the famous Catalina “volcano” that holds a tube that can be threaded to accept a valve. Alternatively, in the Crown Vic example, you would weld a threaded pipe to the drive shaft hump. Thus, Catalina = volcano, Monster Garage = welding, as Catalinas are made of fiberglass and Crown Vics are made of metal. Now, as epoxy resin don’t like to stick to plastic none too well, the tube for this particular thru haul needs to be made of some substance other than plastic. Well how about metal? However, what kind of metal? Now as the thru hull here is just a pipe and not your atypical thru hull, I am sure that it is brass and not bronze, the material from which many proper thru hulls are made. Further, as I have had my C-22 moored in salt water for the past twelve years without the remotest hint of deterioration on this tube, I tend to think that it is brass as opposed to bronze which according to Garry would have long since gone to Davy Jone’s locker. Moreover, I am quite sure this tube has straight threads as the Forespar “plastic” valve that I placed onto it twelve years ago went on without a hitch and has performed faultlessly with greasing once a year. Now why Catalina placed a garden-variety bronze valve onto this brass pipe is a mystery to me. They may have figured the swing keel would be used primarily in fresh water and the original owners would not keep their C-22s long enough to experience the electrolysis problems that appear form this mating of bronze and brass. Alternatively, maybe the vale is brass or maybe the tube is bronze. However, all things point to a brass tube and bronze valve.
Garry, I read your excellent description on the procedures for replacing a seacock / thru hull with that ever so wonderful Catalina “volcano”. However, the particular thru hull that Aldo (and I for that matter) must content with in no way allows a “proper” thru hull. You see, on early (pre-85?) swing keel C-22’s, the cockpit drains flow down to a point amidships that is located directly on top of the end of the curved hump of a slot on the bottom that goes around the top edge of the swing keel when it is up. A nice sharp convex curve repeated in the concave on the bottom. Putting a proper thru hull here would be akin to putting a respectfully sized thru hull for a fire hydrant onto the drive shaft hump on a Crown Vic or perhaps the transmission hump on an old VW assuming the bottom plate was missing. (Of course later I will find out that Monster Garage does this.) Therefore, just about the only possible thru hull that can be successfully placed there is the famous Catalina “volcano” that holds a tube that can be threaded to accept a valve. Alternatively, in the Crown Vic example, you would weld a threaded pipe to the drive shaft hump. Thus, Catalina = volcano, Monster Garage = welding, as Catalinas are made of fiberglass and Crown Vics are made of metal. Now, as epoxy resin don’t like to stick to plastic none too well, the tube for this particular thru haul needs to be made of some substance other than plastic. Well how about metal? However, what kind of metal? Now as the thru hull here is just a pipe and not your atypical thru hull, I am sure that it is brass and not bronze, the material from which many proper thru hulls are made. Further, as I have had my C-22 moored in salt water for the past twelve years without the remotest hint of deterioration on this tube, I tend to think that it is brass as opposed to bronze which according to Garry would have long since gone to Davy Jone’s locker. Moreover, I am quite sure this tube has straight threads as the Forespar “plastic” valve that I placed onto it twelve years ago went on without a hitch and has performed faultlessly with greasing once a year. Now why Catalina placed a garden-variety bronze valve onto this brass pipe is a mystery to me. They may have figured the swing keel would be used primarily in fresh water and the original owners would not keep their C-22s long enough to experience the electrolysis problems that appear form this mating of bronze and brass. Alternatively, maybe the vale is brass or maybe the tube is bronze. However, all things point to a brass tube and bronze valve.
More thru hulls
Well it just goes to show that I don't sail a Cat 22. I don't even own the Cat 27 anymore. However, the best solution might be to seal off the hole in the swing keel trunk and put a proper thru hull elsewhere on some more or less flat surface of the hull. Ordinary brass loses its zinc content fairly rapidly and gets soft, porous and weak as a result. You can tell this because the surface gets a dull coppery color which is the remaining copper after the zinc is gone. A quick polish should reveal the true metal, shiny gold if it is brass and a redder, more coppery color if it is bronze. There is a "red brass" alloy sold at many chandleries which is more corrosion resistant than ordinary brass due to a higher copper content. I had it on the old boat but I didn't really trust it and replaced it with real bronze fittings when I found them. I have long ago discarded the old Cat 27's tubes so I'm afraid I can't do the test myself.
Well it just goes to show that I don't sail a Cat 22. I don't even own the Cat 27 anymore. However, the best solution might be to seal off the hole in the swing keel trunk and put a proper thru hull elsewhere on some more or less flat surface of the hull. Ordinary brass loses its zinc content fairly rapidly and gets soft, porous and weak as a result. You can tell this because the surface gets a dull coppery color which is the remaining copper after the zinc is gone. A quick polish should reveal the true metal, shiny gold if it is brass and a redder, more coppery color if it is bronze. There is a "red brass" alloy sold at many chandleries which is more corrosion resistant than ordinary brass due to a higher copper content. I had it on the old boat but I didn't really trust it and replaced it with real bronze fittings when I found them. I have long ago discarded the old Cat 27's tubes so I'm afraid I can't do the test myself.
Bayard and Garry
Bayard and Garry: Thanks you both for your replies to my question. Garry: I did find your article "Thru Hulls" in the archives yesterday, and read it. I was thinking about my reply about the hump and groove that the "volcano" erupts from, but Bayard beat me to it. Your info about regular thru-hulls was valuable to me because I am also working on an air conditioning project, and I have never read about the mounting of thru-hulls as you described it. You discussed the use of teak backing blocks. If I were to mount a thru hull, I would probably make the spacer from plastic, that I could machine on my metal lathe. I do this kind of work at my house, which is an advangage of a C-22, that you can take your boat to your tools, instead of your tools to your boat. With plastic, (Delrin), I wouldn't have to worry about galvanic corrosion, and coating the teak with epoxy. Anyway, could the thru-hull just be bolted onto the hull, (sealing it properly as you described), and then some of the extra length cut-off, or a plastic spacer of the correct thickness added between the nut and the bottom of the valve? Were you trying to distribute the stress with the teak backing blocks, or just take-up the extra length of the thru-hull? Another question I had was about the teflon tape on the untapered threads of the thru-hull and the sea cock. Did this seal OK? I have only ever used teflon tape on tapered threads. I might have more questions once I reread your article a few more times. I guess the next step for me is to take my existing valve apart and see what the metal coming through the volcano is and what it looks like, and then figure out what I am going to do next. Again, thank you both for your replies. It's good to have someone to discuss these issues with. Aldo
Bayard and Garry: Thanks you both for your replies to my question. Garry: I did find your article "Thru Hulls" in the archives yesterday, and read it. I was thinking about my reply about the hump and groove that the "volcano" erupts from, but Bayard beat me to it. Your info about regular thru-hulls was valuable to me because I am also working on an air conditioning project, and I have never read about the mounting of thru-hulls as you described it. You discussed the use of teak backing blocks. If I were to mount a thru hull, I would probably make the spacer from plastic, that I could machine on my metal lathe. I do this kind of work at my house, which is an advangage of a C-22, that you can take your boat to your tools, instead of your tools to your boat. With plastic, (Delrin), I wouldn't have to worry about galvanic corrosion, and coating the teak with epoxy. Anyway, could the thru-hull just be bolted onto the hull, (sealing it properly as you described), and then some of the extra length cut-off, or a plastic spacer of the correct thickness added between the nut and the bottom of the valve? Were you trying to distribute the stress with the teak backing blocks, or just take-up the extra length of the thru-hull? Another question I had was about the teflon tape on the untapered threads of the thru-hull and the sea cock. Did this seal OK? I have only ever used teflon tape on tapered threads. I might have more questions once I reread your article a few more times. I guess the next step for me is to take my existing valve apart and see what the metal coming through the volcano is and what it looks like, and then figure out what I am going to do next. Again, thank you both for your replies. It's good to have someone to discuss these issues with. Aldo
Just know what I'm told...
Aldo, The level of expertise in the response is pretty good. Didn't know a lot of the metallurgical issues involved. Always learning something. That said, I replaced the original sea-cock (a "very" loose nautical definition considering the ACE Hardware garden variety valve used in the originals) in my 1979 Cat 22. Not knowing exactly how to go about it, I followed the step-by-step directions from Catalina Direct. I used their recommended replacement valve. I have a swing keel, freshwater boat. I have experienced no problems with the thru hull. Buried in the fiberglass volcano is the female end that the sea-cock is seated in - it is this portion that is "glassed in." Look carefully at the fiberglass as it probably half covers it, as it did mine. But there is a place to get a wrench on it. I actually tightened mine a bit to help break any corrosion, before doing the "lefty loosey" bit. Came right off with no problem. I checked the glassed in portion to see if it was still solidly glassed in - still was. Screwed in the replacement valve (the standard stock piece offered by Catalina Direct) and put everything back together. Last bit - this needs to be done at haul out. The location of the through hull is below the water line. The minute you take the drain hoses off to isolate the valve, you have begun sinking your boat. SJK SENDS
Aldo, The level of expertise in the response is pretty good. Didn't know a lot of the metallurgical issues involved. Always learning something. That said, I replaced the original sea-cock (a "very" loose nautical definition considering the ACE Hardware garden variety valve used in the originals) in my 1979 Cat 22. Not knowing exactly how to go about it, I followed the step-by-step directions from Catalina Direct. I used their recommended replacement valve. I have a swing keel, freshwater boat. I have experienced no problems with the thru hull. Buried in the fiberglass volcano is the female end that the sea-cock is seated in - it is this portion that is "glassed in." Look carefully at the fiberglass as it probably half covers it, as it did mine. But there is a place to get a wrench on it. I actually tightened mine a bit to help break any corrosion, before doing the "lefty loosey" bit. Came right off with no problem. I checked the glassed in portion to see if it was still solidly glassed in - still was. Screwed in the replacement valve (the standard stock piece offered by Catalina Direct) and put everything back together. Last bit - this needs to be done at haul out. The location of the through hull is below the water line. The minute you take the drain hoses off to isolate the valve, you have begun sinking your boat. SJK SENDS
For Aldo
The teflon tape was used to seal the threads and to make sure they could be undone if I ever needed to. Metal to metal threads invariably get hard to move after a while, especially in salt water. The mounting blocks serve both purposes. They provide a wide base to disperse stresses on the sea cock and the hull and they provide enough standoff space to make it unnecessary to cut the thru hull. I used epoxy saturated teak as it is easy to work, available in the right thickness and rot resistant. Delrin would be even better if available in the right thickness (about 1 1/2"). You could probably screw your sea cock right down to the hull but cutting a wide threaded tube like a thru hull is very difficult unless, like lucky you, you can do it on a lathe. Even then the hull would have to be ground pretty flat in order for the sea cock to seat properly but a teak or delrin base can be sanded or planed to fit without too much grinding on the hull and is a better support and easier to install.
The teflon tape was used to seal the threads and to make sure they could be undone if I ever needed to. Metal to metal threads invariably get hard to move after a while, especially in salt water. The mounting blocks serve both purposes. They provide a wide base to disperse stresses on the sea cock and the hull and they provide enough standoff space to make it unnecessary to cut the thru hull. I used epoxy saturated teak as it is easy to work, available in the right thickness and rot resistant. Delrin would be even better if available in the right thickness (about 1 1/2"). You could probably screw your sea cock right down to the hull but cutting a wide threaded tube like a thru hull is very difficult unless, like lucky you, you can do it on a lathe. Even then the hull would have to be ground pretty flat in order for the sea cock to seat properly but a teak or delrin base can be sanded or planed to fit without too much grinding on the hull and is a better support and easier to install.
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