Peggie, I am taking your advice and repairing the 1972 Wilcox-Crittendon "Head-Mate" Seaclos in my boat. It is almost new as it has never been used. The previous owners used the boat strictly for racing. (It came with 10 sails!) I went to the boat today and after crawling around for a while I have discovered that the intake is under the v-births forward and the discharge seacock is under the forward dinette seat, port side, just aft of the head.The discharge from the head goes to a vented loop (part #1548) then to a Y-valve with one hose going to the overboard discharge and the other hose going to the same place but not connected to anything. I put the holding tank in place and the hose fits perfectly. there is no pump-out hose nor any deck fitting. (Any advice on instaling that?) If I remove all that and install one hose directly from the head to the holding tank and one to the pump-out on deck and then the vent hose vented directly to the boat side about 2 feet above the waterline will this work? Is the vented loop necessary? Because of space limitations and access to the outer hull I have to run the vent hose about 4 feet long and up about a foot. There is no way to hook up a second vent hose on the tank. Will it vent properly? Thanks for your patience. David
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
More questions than answers
Are you 100% certain that your toilet is a Headmate and not its obsolete predecessor, the Third Mate? They look a lot alike, but if it's a Third Mate, you won't be able to just rebuild it, you'd have to "upgrade" it to a Headmate...and the "upgrade kit" is a whole new pump assembly. A whole new toilet would be cheaper. Where are you trying to put the holding tank? A 4' vent line isn't too bad, if the diameter is large enough (at least 1"), but you can't vent out the hull just 2' above the waterline on a sailboat...the vent thru-hull would be underwater when you're heeled...the tank would fill with water that could back up to the toilet and overflow it. If the vent not only has to run 4' to just GET to the hull, and then up a foot even to be 2' above the waterline, I think we'd better find another location for the tank, and prob'ly different tank--one that'll fit in that location. Read "Installing a Manual Head & Holding Tank" in the HM forum library for a source of excellent tanks that are available in all kinds of shapes and sizes. If the toilet discharge only goes into a tank, you don't need a vented loop in the head discharge line, but I strongly recommend a loop (not necessarily vented--it can just be an arch in the hose, but you already have a vented loop, so why not use it? ) that's high enough to prevent tank contents from getting over it at any angle of heel--to prevent it from making it back to the toilet and overflowing the bowl...which can happen when you're heeled. Put it in the head...the toilet discharge line goes up and over it, back down and on to the tank. However, the locations of both the seacocks make it just about impossible--unless you want to tear the v-berth apart every time anyone uses the head--to keep the damn things closed except when using the head. So whether you can rebuild the toilet or have to replace it, if it's below the waterline, you won't any choice but to put a vented loop in the head intake between the pump and the bowl. As for installing a deck pumpout fitting, that's gonna require a hole saw, bedding compound, 2 hose clamps and room to work to put the hose on it. We can discuss that in detail once we know where the tank has to go.
Are you 100% certain that your toilet is a Headmate and not its obsolete predecessor, the Third Mate? They look a lot alike, but if it's a Third Mate, you won't be able to just rebuild it, you'd have to "upgrade" it to a Headmate...and the "upgrade kit" is a whole new pump assembly. A whole new toilet would be cheaper. Where are you trying to put the holding tank? A 4' vent line isn't too bad, if the diameter is large enough (at least 1"), but you can't vent out the hull just 2' above the waterline on a sailboat...the vent thru-hull would be underwater when you're heeled...the tank would fill with water that could back up to the toilet and overflow it. If the vent not only has to run 4' to just GET to the hull, and then up a foot even to be 2' above the waterline, I think we'd better find another location for the tank, and prob'ly different tank--one that'll fit in that location. Read "Installing a Manual Head & Holding Tank" in the HM forum library for a source of excellent tanks that are available in all kinds of shapes and sizes. If the toilet discharge only goes into a tank, you don't need a vented loop in the head discharge line, but I strongly recommend a loop (not necessarily vented--it can just be an arch in the hose, but you already have a vented loop, so why not use it? ) that's high enough to prevent tank contents from getting over it at any angle of heel--to prevent it from making it back to the toilet and overflowing the bowl...which can happen when you're heeled. Put it in the head...the toilet discharge line goes up and over it, back down and on to the tank. However, the locations of both the seacocks make it just about impossible--unless you want to tear the v-berth apart every time anyone uses the head--to keep the damn things closed except when using the head. So whether you can rebuild the toilet or have to replace it, if it's below the waterline, you won't any choice but to put a vented loop in the head intake between the pump and the bowl. As for installing a deck pumpout fitting, that's gonna require a hole saw, bedding compound, 2 hose clamps and room to work to put the hose on it. We can discuss that in detail once we know where the tank has to go.
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David Guthridge
Getting complicated!
Peggie, Thanks so much for your help! This is getting more complicated with every turn. Maybe I'm reading to much into all this. They made 9000 Pearson 26's and they all can't be this complicated! As I see it I am going to have to replace all the existing hoses, put the holding tank up under the forward bunks, instal a vent hole in the side as far up and forward as possible, and instal a pump-out on the forward deck. Does the pump-out hose need to be straight or can it be long and curved? So long as the holding tank is below the toilet can it be 6 feet or so away from the toilet? Thanks for the info on the vented loop. I now understand it's purpose. Thanks much, David
Peggie, Thanks so much for your help! This is getting more complicated with every turn. Maybe I'm reading to much into all this. They made 9000 Pearson 26's and they all can't be this complicated! As I see it I am going to have to replace all the existing hoses, put the holding tank up under the forward bunks, instal a vent hole in the side as far up and forward as possible, and instal a pump-out on the forward deck. Does the pump-out hose need to be straight or can it be long and curved? So long as the holding tank is below the toilet can it be 6 feet or so away from the toilet? Thanks for the info on the vented loop. I now understand it's purpose. Thanks much, David
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Now you're catching on
The tank doesn't have to be below the toilet...in fact, few of 'em are. Even when it's on the same level as the toilet, the inlet at the top of the tank will be higher than the head discharge, which comes out of the toilet at the bottom. So don't get anal about the relative heights of the toilet and the tank. A total hose run from the toilet to the tank of 6' is fine...try not to exceed 8'. The pumpout hose can be up to 10' long and can have a curve up to 90 degrees in it--the operative word being "curve," not "elbow." However, you CAN use an elbow fitting coming out of the tank. If at all possible (you'll need at least 5" clearance above the top of the tank), put ALL the fittings on the top of the tank, with a tube inside to the bottom on the discharge. Whether you can do that or not, put the vent and the inlet fitting toward the centerline of the boat. That prevents the tank contents from spilling out the vent and from running back toward the toilet when you're heeled. The pumpout fitting, of course, has to be at the deepest point in the tank. You didn't mention the toilet again...If it really is the 1972 original, I'm 99% certain that it can't be a Headmate...that it has to be the obsolete Third Mate. They're both compact size toilets and look a lot alike. So don't buy a rebuild kit till you've checked with W-C and found out for certain that I'm wrong. If I'm right, the "upgrade kit" to convert it to a Headmate is everything but the bowl, seat and lid. Since you'd have to order that kit at full list price, and complete toilets are available at discount, it'll be cheaper to buy a complete toilet.
The tank doesn't have to be below the toilet...in fact, few of 'em are. Even when it's on the same level as the toilet, the inlet at the top of the tank will be higher than the head discharge, which comes out of the toilet at the bottom. So don't get anal about the relative heights of the toilet and the tank. A total hose run from the toilet to the tank of 6' is fine...try not to exceed 8'. The pumpout hose can be up to 10' long and can have a curve up to 90 degrees in it--the operative word being "curve," not "elbow." However, you CAN use an elbow fitting coming out of the tank. If at all possible (you'll need at least 5" clearance above the top of the tank), put ALL the fittings on the top of the tank, with a tube inside to the bottom on the discharge. Whether you can do that or not, put the vent and the inlet fitting toward the centerline of the boat. That prevents the tank contents from spilling out the vent and from running back toward the toilet when you're heeled. The pumpout fitting, of course, has to be at the deepest point in the tank. You didn't mention the toilet again...If it really is the 1972 original, I'm 99% certain that it can't be a Headmate...that it has to be the obsolete Third Mate. They're both compact size toilets and look a lot alike. So don't buy a rebuild kit till you've checked with W-C and found out for certain that I'm wrong. If I'm right, the "upgrade kit" to convert it to a Headmate is everything but the bowl, seat and lid. Since you'd have to order that kit at full list price, and complete toilets are available at discount, it'll be cheaper to buy a complete toilet.
D
David Guthridge
Might be newer........
Peggie, Toilet is a Headmate. That's what's printed on the top rim on the back between the bolts that hold on the seat. Perhaps the old owner did replace it. Anyway, it's just like new. Thanks so much for your help. (You don't make boat- calls do you?) I'm going to attack this thing next week so you may hear from me again! Thanks again, David
Peggie, Toilet is a Headmate. That's what's printed on the top rim on the back between the bolts that hold on the seat. Perhaps the old owner did replace it. Anyway, it's just like new. Thanks so much for your help. (You don't make boat- calls do you?) I'm going to attack this thing next week so you may hear from me again! Thanks again, David
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