The post earlier this week about the guy who lost his mast set my brain in motion. When should one replace the standing rigging simply because of age? I have 1988 O'Day 302. It's been in fresh water for all 20 years. I look over all the standing rigging each Spring (including the turnbuckles) and I have a friend who generally goes up the mast at least once a year and he looks everything over on the trip up the mast. (He's a structural engineer and I always assume he knows what to look for.) The post about losing the mast kicked in the paranoia lobe of my brain. Am I sailing on borrowed time? If the rigging all looks good, shall I go a few more years? What's the life of the original standing rigging? What's it cost to replace the standing rigging on a 30 foot boat? I'd welcome any thoughts. I'm sure there are those in this forum who've "been there and done that" when it comes to standing rigging. Thanks for your input and advice.
Replace standing rigging? How often?
- Thread starter Steve L22188
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life span is 10 years...but you cant be that definitive...Your boat usage and area has to be factored in...Hot humid ocean going boats more frequent then a northern lake sailor... If I were you i would start replacing one wire per year if on a budget..starting with the forestay ..then the back...moving to the port and starboard stays...maybe do one whole side at a time if multiple... But in actuality if you can do it all your self... you can do it for about 1500 using stay locks and 1 X 19 SS...not really knowing your 30' boat.
life span is 10 years...but you cant be that definitive...Your boat usage and area has to be factored in...Hot humid ocean going boats more frequent then a northern lake sailor... If I were you i would start replacing one wire per year if on a budget..starting with the forestay ..then the back...moving to the port and starboard stays...maybe do one whole side at a time if multiple... But in actuality if you can do it all your self... you can do it for about 1500 using stay locks and 1 X 19 SS...not really knowing your 30' boat.
Fresh water
Fresh water sailors are in a completely different world than salters when it comes to maintenance stuff - rigging included. Here are some observations from a fresh water sailor of over 25 years. I have never known anyone who lost a mast that was not racing at the time. I went to Palmer Johnsons planning on doing the one piece per year and they thought I was nuts. I rely on yearly inspections and have never had rigging less than 20 years old. I have never had a failure. My rigging is 1985 vintage, but I will not replace it until I find visual evidence to do so.
Fresh water sailors are in a completely different world than salters when it comes to maintenance stuff - rigging included. Here are some observations from a fresh water sailor of over 25 years. I have never known anyone who lost a mast that was not racing at the time. I went to Palmer Johnsons planning on doing the one piece per year and they thought I was nuts. I rely on yearly inspections and have never had rigging less than 20 years old. I have never had a failure. My rigging is 1985 vintage, but I will not replace it until I find visual evidence to do so.
Swedge Fittings get Stress cracks
Turnbuckles and toggles hardly ever fail, especially forged types. Rigging normally fails at the swedged fittings where the wire enters the swedge. Stress cracking is much more prevalent in salt water than in fresh because of the intrusion of the salts into the fitting. Without the salt you would be exposed to cracking from stress, most of which is the hoop stress and work hardening of the swedge itself. In salt water rigging can go 20 or more years without failing if the rig isn't set up tight and the boat sailed hard.It is recommended however that the fittings be X-rayed after the first 10 years and then again after every 2 or 3 years thereafter. I wouldn't worry about the stress cracking in fresh water till after 15 years and then I would resort to a good visual inspection of the swedges with a magnifying glass. Your boat after 20 years in fresh water if probably just fine but after that much time a good visual inspection would be recommended. You are just as able to have a failure in the chain plates or tangs if they are made of stainless and have been bent (formed) and work hardened in the process, so check them also. If your rig was assembled with Staylock or Norseman fittings you have machined parts that don't produce a hoop stress and may last indefinitely.
Turnbuckles and toggles hardly ever fail, especially forged types. Rigging normally fails at the swedged fittings where the wire enters the swedge. Stress cracking is much more prevalent in salt water than in fresh because of the intrusion of the salts into the fitting. Without the salt you would be exposed to cracking from stress, most of which is the hoop stress and work hardening of the swedge itself. In salt water rigging can go 20 or more years without failing if the rig isn't set up tight and the boat sailed hard.It is recommended however that the fittings be X-rayed after the first 10 years and then again after every 2 or 3 years thereafter. I wouldn't worry about the stress cracking in fresh water till after 15 years and then I would resort to a good visual inspection of the swedges with a magnifying glass. Your boat after 20 years in fresh water if probably just fine but after that much time a good visual inspection would be recommended. You are just as able to have a failure in the chain plates or tangs if they are made of stainless and have been bent (formed) and work hardened in the process, so check them also. If your rig was assembled with Staylock or Norseman fittings you have machined parts that don't produce a hoop stress and may last indefinitely.
Start with
Start with a rigging inspection by a QUALIFIED rigging specialist. This does NOT include sending your buddy up the spar just because he's an engineer. A proper rig inspection will include special dies that seek out stress fractures and usually a magnifying glass and an expert who knows what he/she is actually looking for. In salt water I replace mine every 10-12 however in fresh water 20 is not necessarily dangerous but it is time to, at a minimum, get a REAL rig inspection. If it were me I'd just replace it.. P.S. Higgs now you know someone who was on a boat that lost a spar while not racing and it failed on the windward bottom swage on the upper stay. It cost him an entire sailing season but he got lucky because his surveyor, when he bought the boat, gave the rig an "ok". It was an expensive venture for his insurance company because the rig totaled the fresh Awlgrip job before it cold be disconnected as he did not have rigging cutters on board. Conditions were not rough and it was only blowing 12-15
Start with a rigging inspection by a QUALIFIED rigging specialist. This does NOT include sending your buddy up the spar just because he's an engineer. A proper rig inspection will include special dies that seek out stress fractures and usually a magnifying glass and an expert who knows what he/she is actually looking for. In salt water I replace mine every 10-12 however in fresh water 20 is not necessarily dangerous but it is time to, at a minimum, get a REAL rig inspection. If it were me I'd just replace it.. P.S. Higgs now you know someone who was on a boat that lost a spar while not racing and it failed on the windward bottom swage on the upper stay. It cost him an entire sailing season but he got lucky because his surveyor, when he bought the boat, gave the rig an "ok". It was an expensive venture for his insurance company because the rig totaled the fresh Awlgrip job before it cold be disconnected as he did not have rigging cutters on board. Conditions were not rough and it was only blowing 12-15
I personally think
that the time to replace your aging standing rigging is when you start thinking and or worrying about it. Anything later, like reefing, may be too late. I had an old C&C some years ago that, like most C&C's under 30 feet, had oversized rigging. I think C&C just bought hundreds of miles of rigging and used all the same size on all their smaller boats...just a theory. Anyway, I used to routinely and cursorily inspect my rigging on that boat each year and thought it to be in good enough condition. Yet I worried about it. Whenever I sailed that boat in a blow, I thought...."is this the day the rig comes down?" I decided to replace the rigging that summer. When I took the old rigging home and did a close up inspection with strong magnifying glass at where the wire entered the swaged end fittings at the mast head, I found a very tiny crack beginning.... Don't wait too long.
that the time to replace your aging standing rigging is when you start thinking and or worrying about it. Anything later, like reefing, may be too late. I had an old C&C some years ago that, like most C&C's under 30 feet, had oversized rigging. I think C&C just bought hundreds of miles of rigging and used all the same size on all their smaller boats...just a theory. Anyway, I used to routinely and cursorily inspect my rigging on that boat each year and thought it to be in good enough condition. Yet I worried about it. Whenever I sailed that boat in a blow, I thought...."is this the day the rig comes down?" I decided to replace the rigging that summer. When I took the old rigging home and did a close up inspection with strong magnifying glass at where the wire entered the swaged end fittings at the mast head, I found a very tiny crack beginning.... Don't wait too long.
Tubeless
After Raising and lowering the mast every year,(due to self launching and pick up). I had a side stay break several strands at a upper swage fitting. I think I may have put unnatual stess on the fitting while coiling for transport and storage. After replacing the entire rig for $700, I will be much more thought full during the next procedure. I feel much more confident that I have a faithfull rig since it was the original from 1992. I hope to sail my first trip from Dulth to Bayfield WI in July. Intentions not a plan.
After Raising and lowering the mast every year,(due to self launching and pick up). I had a side stay break several strands at a upper swage fitting. I think I may have put unnatual stess on the fitting while coiling for transport and storage. After replacing the entire rig for $700, I will be much more thought full during the next procedure. I feel much more confident that I have a faithfull rig since it was the original from 1992. I hope to sail my first trip from Dulth to Bayfield WI in July. Intentions not a plan.
One day a dock neighbor came home shaken
(not stirred) because he had lost his forestay off Pt. Blount, an unusually heavy wind area of the San Fransisco Bay at the SE corner of Angel Island in the dreaded Slot (summertime winds 20-25 on "quiet" days). He immediately turned downwind, took the weight off the forestay and literally "ran" home. I'd been figuring on "looking" at our rigging (on our old C25) for a year or so, and after hearing his story, did immediately. When the backstay was being replaced, the rigger said: "Hey look at this: Good thing you brought her in today instead of going out sailing again!" The barrel turnbuckle holding the bottom of the backstay to the transom had completely disintegrated as he was turning it to remove it. Looked just "fine" from the outside for the past few years... 1981 boat, salt water, this was in 1990 or '91.
(not stirred) because he had lost his forestay off Pt. Blount, an unusually heavy wind area of the San Fransisco Bay at the SE corner of Angel Island in the dreaded Slot (summertime winds 20-25 on "quiet" days). He immediately turned downwind, took the weight off the forestay and literally "ran" home. I'd been figuring on "looking" at our rigging (on our old C25) for a year or so, and after hearing his story, did immediately. When the backstay was being replaced, the rigger said: "Hey look at this: Good thing you brought her in today instead of going out sailing again!" The barrel turnbuckle holding the bottom of the backstay to the transom had completely disintegrated as he was turning it to remove it. Looked just "fine" from the outside for the past few years... 1981 boat, salt water, this was in 1990 or '91.
Inspection price
How much can I expect to pay a pro rigger to inspect my Oday 26? Does the mast have to be down, or do they go aloft? Thanks.
How much can I expect to pay a pro rigger to inspect my Oday 26? Does the mast have to be down, or do they go aloft? Thanks.
My stanging rigging
is 8 years old..I had the sticks down this year...repainted them and when we resteped them we noticed a crack in the head stay top sewage... forces on a 41' boat are considerably more then a 30 but it just goes to show that load cycles is really more a factor then age... the roller furling add to the stresses and were and tear so you have to keep all theas things in mind...This was my main question in a thread a while back regarding the viability of adding the baby stay as insurance against possibly loosing a mast beating hard into the wing.. How much you use and how hard you push your boat needs to be factored in addition to and on top of age..The rigger could not tell me how long that fitting had been cracked.. I like what Warren says. in post #5..but kind of chuckeled a bit also...as I think I personaly worrie the most that first real blow with a NEW unproven rig...Just another reason I like replacing one wire at a time...
is 8 years old..I had the sticks down this year...repainted them and when we resteped them we noticed a crack in the head stay top sewage... forces on a 41' boat are considerably more then a 30 but it just goes to show that load cycles is really more a factor then age... the roller furling add to the stresses and were and tear so you have to keep all theas things in mind...This was my main question in a thread a while back regarding the viability of adding the baby stay as insurance against possibly loosing a mast beating hard into the wing.. How much you use and how hard you push your boat needs to be factored in addition to and on top of age..The rigger could not tell me how long that fitting had been cracked.. I like what Warren says. in post #5..but kind of chuckeled a bit also...as I think I personaly worrie the most that first real blow with a NEW unproven rig...Just another reason I like replacing one wire at a time...
10 years seems to the 'scantling' or historical time to change....
But .. it all depends on the 'accumulated sailing miles' that really is the limiting factor .... about ONE circumnavigation per rig set. If the boat and its rigging was well designed the accumulation of fatigue will be the least. Its when boat builders 'chintz' on materials and their proper 'thicknesses' is when fatigue and ductile failure will occur prematurely. Even with all the 'guidelines', before any long passage I usually 'proof load' all my rigging to 70% of design ultimate tensile strength as If there is fatigue or ductility/deformation such loading will show up immediately with a 'failure'. I wont tell you how I do this as such can be extremely dangerous, especially the 'snap-back' if something does 'go' when highly loaded. With routine proof-loading, checking all the connections with a microscope and then dye penetrant checking I find that even with 'hard' long term sailing I can usually get well beyond 15 years of service life before I need to replace, although I am always happily surprised when a I find a shroud or chainplate that 'goes' early when Im proof-loading. Proof-loading can do you great harm or worse if something 'goes' and you are in the direct path of the 'snap-back'. Some riggers will do the proof loading for you .... but it can cost as much as a simple total replacement. Simple answer ..... the time it takes for one complete circumnavigation or 10 years whichever comes first.
But .. it all depends on the 'accumulated sailing miles' that really is the limiting factor .... about ONE circumnavigation per rig set. If the boat and its rigging was well designed the accumulation of fatigue will be the least. Its when boat builders 'chintz' on materials and their proper 'thicknesses' is when fatigue and ductile failure will occur prematurely. Even with all the 'guidelines', before any long passage I usually 'proof load' all my rigging to 70% of design ultimate tensile strength as If there is fatigue or ductility/deformation such loading will show up immediately with a 'failure'. I wont tell you how I do this as such can be extremely dangerous, especially the 'snap-back' if something does 'go' when highly loaded. With routine proof-loading, checking all the connections with a microscope and then dye penetrant checking I find that even with 'hard' long term sailing I can usually get well beyond 15 years of service life before I need to replace, although I am always happily surprised when a I find a shroud or chainplate that 'goes' early when Im proof-loading. Proof-loading can do you great harm or worse if something 'goes' and you are in the direct path of the 'snap-back'. Some riggers will do the proof loading for you .... but it can cost as much as a simple total replacement. Simple answer ..... the time it takes for one complete circumnavigation or 10 years whichever comes first.
Ross they are not..
Ross they are not and there are very few reported failures. That being said I used swages at the top and Norseman or Sta-Locs on the bottom. My rigger, Kevin Montague, at NE Rigging showed me boxes full of failed, in process failures and cracked and fatigued swages. Not a one, he said, came from the top of a stay. In his 30+ years as a professional rigger the majority of failures (in his words 95%) are at a bottom swage. I have been using mechanical fittings now for over ten years. They are simple, reliable, re-usable and easy to install! I personally like having a hybrid of mechanicals on the bottom and swages at the top..
Ross they are not and there are very few reported failures. That being said I used swages at the top and Norseman or Sta-Locs on the bottom. My rigger, Kevin Montague, at NE Rigging showed me boxes full of failed, in process failures and cracked and fatigued swages. Not a one, he said, came from the top of a stay. In his 30+ years as a professional rigger the majority of failures (in his words 95%) are at a bottom swage. I have been using mechanical fittings now for over ten years. They are simple, reliable, re-usable and easy to install! I personally like having a hybrid of mechanicals on the bottom and swages at the top..
Thanks, Mainesail. Do you suppose that the failure of the lower
swages is partly because of water intrusion? I put Norseman on both ends when I did my standing rigging mostly because they are reusable with a new cone wedge. I was new at the job so I followed the directions. edited for spelling
swages is partly because of water intrusion? I put Norseman on both ends when I did my standing rigging mostly because they are reusable with a new cone wedge. I was new at the job so I followed the directions. edited for spelling
That's what
That's what Kevin thinks plus in the North he attributes some failures to freezing water between strands near the top of the swage. He also showed me an example of a bad swage that let water in, froze and caused a failure.
That's what Kevin thinks plus in the North he attributes some failures to freezing water between strands near the top of the swage. He also showed me an example of a bad swage that let water in, froze and caused a failure.
Another thought about a new rig
I think you can expect new standing rigging to stretch up to 10 per cent of its length when it comes under load. I suggest you continue to check and adjust any new wire you put on your boat. If the leeward shrouds show any wobble in 10 or more knots of wind, you need to tune the new rig. Same thing with fore/backstay sag. I've found the need to adjust new rigging a number of times after installation.
I think you can expect new standing rigging to stretch up to 10 per cent of its length when it comes under load. I suggest you continue to check and adjust any new wire you put on your boat. If the leeward shrouds show any wobble in 10 or more knots of wind, you need to tune the new rig. Same thing with fore/backstay sag. I've found the need to adjust new rigging a number of times after installation.
OOOOps...
Ross you are right, of course. I meant 1 per cent (still a significant amount of stretch....)
Ross you are right, of course. I meant 1 per cent (still a significant amount of stretch....)
Standing rigging
I had my standing rigging inspected on my 1975 p26w by a Marine Surveyor at 06 haul out. He said the rigging was fine. The boat was on Lake Champlain for 25 years and on MA bay the last 7 years. I replaced it anyway
I had my standing rigging inspected on my 1975 p26w by a Marine Surveyor at 06 haul out. He said the rigging was fine. The boat was on Lake Champlain for 25 years and on MA bay the last 7 years. I replaced it anyway
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