I have some soft spots on the forward port deck and need to open the area to repair or replace the balsa core. I hope to do this from the underside (in the V Berth) and wonder if anyone can advise as to the types of cutting tools that could be used. I propose to cut the lower skin (after removing the liner) and peel it back to expose the core material without cutting through the top skin. Would a dremel tool be good enough?
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bruce
thoughts
zip saw would do the cutting, but have you thought about takint the top off and rebonding ?, some think working overhead with fiberglass and mountains of fg dust is to be avoided. if working under, use breathing and eye protection, and have a shop vac on and hose right next to the cutting blade. good luck with the fg itch....
zip saw would do the cutting, but have you thought about takint the top off and rebonding ?, some think working overhead with fiberglass and mountains of fg dust is to be avoided. if working under, use breathing and eye protection, and have a shop vac on and hose right next to the cutting blade. good luck with the fg itch....
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Chuck R
How big are the soft spots?
charlie, If these soft spots are localized, 12"x12" sizes you may be able to do a penetrating epoxy method.
charlie, If these soft spots are localized, 12"x12" sizes you may be able to do a penetrating epoxy method.
Dremel is too light
A Roto-Zip tool has a lot more power & has a cutter that's designed for f'glass. But why do it the hard way? Removing the liner, lying on your back and cutting overhead isn't any fun, and when you place any material, patch or whatever you're fighting gravity. If you've a large soft area on deck, and are careful, the Roto-Zip can make a fairly narrow cut thru the top laminate all around the bad spot and you can then pry up and save the section of f'glass you've just cut free. Repair the core & bond the old piece of deck back in place ( use epoxy for everything )and the cosmetic repair should be confined to the narrow cut-line made by the rotary cutter. And gravity is on your side all the way. If you're worried abt. moisture while you're doing the repair, cut a piece of 6 mil poly slightly larger that your repair area and duct-tape it all around, then overlay that with a plastic tarp, and that should keep any moisture away between work sessions (overnight).
A Roto-Zip tool has a lot more power & has a cutter that's designed for f'glass. But why do it the hard way? Removing the liner, lying on your back and cutting overhead isn't any fun, and when you place any material, patch or whatever you're fighting gravity. If you've a large soft area on deck, and are careful, the Roto-Zip can make a fairly narrow cut thru the top laminate all around the bad spot and you can then pry up and save the section of f'glass you've just cut free. Repair the core & bond the old piece of deck back in place ( use epoxy for everything )and the cosmetic repair should be confined to the narrow cut-line made by the rotary cutter. And gravity is on your side all the way. If you're worried abt. moisture while you're doing the repair, cut a piece of 6 mil poly slightly larger that your repair area and duct-tape it all around, then overlay that with a plastic tarp, and that should keep any moisture away between work sessions (overnight).
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Charlie
Soft Decks
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate all the help received. I think that I will have the hull and decks surveyed to find the extent of the damage. After more checking, there may be several areas to be done. I agree that doing the job from the top side of the decks is easier, but need to look at how the seams have to be done to insure structural integrity as well as appearance of the finished job. Charlie
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate all the help received. I think that I will have the hull and decks surveyed to find the extent of the damage. After more checking, there may be several areas to be done. I agree that doing the job from the top side of the decks is easier, but need to look at how the seams have to be done to insure structural integrity as well as appearance of the finished job. Charlie
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Chuck R
Keep us posted.
charlie, This is an intresting post. Lets us know what you find and how you'll handle the issue. Perhaps some pic's to share would be nice. Good luck Chuck R.
charlie, This is an intresting post. Lets us know what you find and how you'll handle the issue. Perhaps some pic's to share would be nice. Good luck Chuck R.
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J. Barrett
For what it's worth
I have an 82 Mac 25 that I purchased with some serious rot in the core of the cabin top. I was going to remove the inner fibreglas and replace the core myself but did not have the time to do it. I went to two different yards for estimates. One was going to cut the outer deck and replace the core, glassing a new deck. This would not have matched the original and wasn't a great choice. Also, the comment that it is "just an old boat" didn't sit well with me. It may be an old boat, but it is MY old boat. The second yard that I went to said that they could remove the core from inside and make all repairs without altering the outside. They gave me a quote I could live with and did the work over this past winter. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they came in slightly under the quote, did a quality repair, AND replaced the overhead carpet which was not part of the original job. The task itself is not insurmountable and fibreglas is fairly easy to work with. If you've got the time, I'd do it from inside (with appropriate breathing/eye protection). If not, find a yard that respects you and recognizes we all can't afford the newest and nicest. Happy sailing. -John
I have an 82 Mac 25 that I purchased with some serious rot in the core of the cabin top. I was going to remove the inner fibreglas and replace the core myself but did not have the time to do it. I went to two different yards for estimates. One was going to cut the outer deck and replace the core, glassing a new deck. This would not have matched the original and wasn't a great choice. Also, the comment that it is "just an old boat" didn't sit well with me. It may be an old boat, but it is MY old boat. The second yard that I went to said that they could remove the core from inside and make all repairs without altering the outside. They gave me a quote I could live with and did the work over this past winter. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they came in slightly under the quote, did a quality repair, AND replaced the overhead carpet which was not part of the original job. The task itself is not insurmountable and fibreglas is fairly easy to work with. If you've got the time, I'd do it from inside (with appropriate breathing/eye protection). If not, find a yard that respects you and recognizes we all can't afford the newest and nicest. Happy sailing. -John
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Charlie
Soft Decks
The boat is out of the water now and the next step is to remove the deck hardware. I plan to fill all holes (oversized), fill with epoxy and redrill. I have done a hammer test on the deck and there may be more soft areas to check. I plan to have the deck and hull surveyed and checked for moisture before doing much more. It gets cold here north of Toronto, and other than opening a portion of the deck may wait for spring to do most of the work. One advantage that I have is that the boat is stored in my driveway beside the house, and getting to the work site is not a problem. Thanks for your input. Will try to keep you posted as I go. Charlie
The boat is out of the water now and the next step is to remove the deck hardware. I plan to fill all holes (oversized), fill with epoxy and redrill. I have done a hammer test on the deck and there may be more soft areas to check. I plan to have the deck and hull surveyed and checked for moisture before doing much more. It gets cold here north of Toronto, and other than opening a portion of the deck may wait for spring to do most of the work. One advantage that I have is that the boat is stored in my driveway beside the house, and getting to the work site is not a problem. Thanks for your input. Will try to keep you posted as I go. Charlie
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gene
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J. Barrett
Kentmorr Yacht Yard
For what it may be worth to anyone close enough to utilize the yard, I had my cabin top re-cored at Kentmorr Yacht Yard on Kent Island, MD (near Annapolis). Their number is 410-643-1411. They deal with a lot of high-end yachts and the people who can afford them but still take care of the "little guy" like me. I did remove all of the deck hardware, stantions, etc. to make their job easier and save me a few bucks. I don't want to give anyone the impression that the work was cheap as it cost me $3,000, almost what I originally paid for the boat. In my view I could put the money into the boat and know what I had or buy another and take a chance. Also, like most of us, I got attatched to this boat and didn't want to give up on it. Now, if I keep up on the maintenance as should have been done, I have a boat that should be good for another 20 years. Was it a good investment? Is any boat an investment? For me, I'm happy with the money I spent, can trust that the mast will stay where it is supposed to, and can enjoy the boat as intended. Oh yeah, got caught in a small craft warning this summer and rolled her onto her beam. The mast stayed put. The way the top was before I probably would've lost the mast. (No, I stupidly left the radio off and never heard the warning until after the fact). Long story short, I'm happy with the work they did and felt it was a fair price. Enough said. Happy Sailing. -John
For what it may be worth to anyone close enough to utilize the yard, I had my cabin top re-cored at Kentmorr Yacht Yard on Kent Island, MD (near Annapolis). Their number is 410-643-1411. They deal with a lot of high-end yachts and the people who can afford them but still take care of the "little guy" like me. I did remove all of the deck hardware, stantions, etc. to make their job easier and save me a few bucks. I don't want to give anyone the impression that the work was cheap as it cost me $3,000, almost what I originally paid for the boat. In my view I could put the money into the boat and know what I had or buy another and take a chance. Also, like most of us, I got attatched to this boat and didn't want to give up on it. Now, if I keep up on the maintenance as should have been done, I have a boat that should be good for another 20 years. Was it a good investment? Is any boat an investment? For me, I'm happy with the money I spent, can trust that the mast will stay where it is supposed to, and can enjoy the boat as intended. Oh yeah, got caught in a small craft warning this summer and rolled her onto her beam. The mast stayed put. The way the top was before I probably would've lost the mast. (No, I stupidly left the radio off and never heard the warning until after the fact). Long story short, I'm happy with the work they did and felt it was a fair price. Enough said. Happy Sailing. -John
Apology to Charlie
What with my plug for Roto-Zip tools and trying to talk you out of the fun of lying on your back and having wet epoxy drip on your face, I completely overlooked the fact that, to effect a structural repair to the deck laminate, you should grind back from the cut to create a 12:1 slope for your repair. So if the outer deck laminate is 1/8" thick, you'll have to grind back a 1.5" taper on either side of the nice neat cut line made by your Roto-Zip, to reinforce the joint with f'glass cloth, matt & epoxy. Polyester doesn't make a strong enough bond, so epoxy is required for a good repair. Epoxy doesn't like UV, so you'll have to paint, probably the whole deck. These "minor" considerations aside, I still stick to my guns abt. it being a helluva lot easier, and the chances of success higher, by working down rather than overhead.
What with my plug for Roto-Zip tools and trying to talk you out of the fun of lying on your back and having wet epoxy drip on your face, I completely overlooked the fact that, to effect a structural repair to the deck laminate, you should grind back from the cut to create a 12:1 slope for your repair. So if the outer deck laminate is 1/8" thick, you'll have to grind back a 1.5" taper on either side of the nice neat cut line made by your Roto-Zip, to reinforce the joint with f'glass cloth, matt & epoxy. Polyester doesn't make a strong enough bond, so epoxy is required for a good repair. Epoxy doesn't like UV, so you'll have to paint, probably the whole deck. These "minor" considerations aside, I still stick to my guns abt. it being a helluva lot easier, and the chances of success higher, by working down rather than overhead.
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Charlie
Tools to cut fibreglass (Soft Deck Repairs)
I did some tests on a piece of the cockpit sidewall that I cut out to install a opening port for the quarter berth (a good move as it gives both light and air when sleeping in this area). Using a Dremel tool with a fiberglass cutting blade works OK and cut the first layer of fiberglass quite easily. But the most difficult part was peeling the fiberglass from the core and then removing the core from the other side of the panel. I realize that this core material was dry compared to the wet core and wonder if anyone can tell me about your experiences in removing the core material. I saw a tool by "Fein" called a Multimaster that has cutting blades for fiberglass, will work as a cutter to remove the core material as well as a sander. A bit expensive but I am impressed with how much labour it could save.
I did some tests on a piece of the cockpit sidewall that I cut out to install a opening port for the quarter berth (a good move as it gives both light and air when sleeping in this area). Using a Dremel tool with a fiberglass cutting blade works OK and cut the first layer of fiberglass quite easily. But the most difficult part was peeling the fiberglass from the core and then removing the core from the other side of the panel. I realize that this core material was dry compared to the wet core and wonder if anyone can tell me about your experiences in removing the core material. I saw a tool by "Fein" called a Multimaster that has cutting blades for fiberglass, will work as a cutter to remove the core material as well as a sander. A bit expensive but I am impressed with how much labour it could save.
Wood chisels?
Once the outer laminate is cut, wouldn't a fairly wide wood chisel tapped in between the laminate & core act to cut & wedge apart the bond between the core and the f'glass without damaging the laminate ( I'm assuming you'll re-use it after the core is replaced. ) A sharp chisel, say 1 1/4" width or better, should make short work of the remaining balsa core in the area you've opened up. The Fein Multimaster looks useful, though pricey: the ocsillating blade would be good for cutting tabbing if you have to remove a bulkhead or other fixture that is glassed in place, though in my O'Day 27 I found that stuff "bonded" to the interior of the hull had been so poorly prepped & used polyester resin , so I could peel it away using a 6" Stanley Wonderbar. If you're brave & don't mind risking a finger or two, Lee Valley Tools sell a 4" cutting tool, an attachment for a mini-grinder, called a Lancelot Woodcarving Tool. It is a piece of chain-saw chain, clamped between a couple of steel discs. They also sell a couple of similar, but less agressive tools , also for the mini-grinder. The Lancelot works well and FAST, but there is a definite potential to cause significant hurt to yourself and/or the boat, so you need a steady hand. It'll make the old core disappear in a hurry though.
Once the outer laminate is cut, wouldn't a fairly wide wood chisel tapped in between the laminate & core act to cut & wedge apart the bond between the core and the f'glass without damaging the laminate ( I'm assuming you'll re-use it after the core is replaced. ) A sharp chisel, say 1 1/4" width or better, should make short work of the remaining balsa core in the area you've opened up. The Fein Multimaster looks useful, though pricey: the ocsillating blade would be good for cutting tabbing if you have to remove a bulkhead or other fixture that is glassed in place, though in my O'Day 27 I found that stuff "bonded" to the interior of the hull had been so poorly prepped & used polyester resin , so I could peel it away using a 6" Stanley Wonderbar. If you're brave & don't mind risking a finger or two, Lee Valley Tools sell a 4" cutting tool, an attachment for a mini-grinder, called a Lancelot Woodcarving Tool. It is a piece of chain-saw chain, clamped between a couple of steel discs. They also sell a couple of similar, but less agressive tools , also for the mini-grinder. The Lancelot works well and FAST, but there is a definite potential to cause significant hurt to yourself and/or the boat, so you need a steady hand. It'll make the old core disappear in a hurry though.
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Warren
Deck Repair
Before you go about tearing the deck apart, you might try this. Define the solf area with hammer taps. Drill small (1/8") holes about 1/2" in from the outside edge of the "area." Also drill small holes at various spots across solf area. Spray "non-expanding" insulation foam (Home Depot, Lowes etc.) in the center holes, working towards the outer edge. Allow the foam to set-up. Clean out the foam that has exited the holes with the 1/8" drill. Fill the cleaned out holes with Marine-Tex. Use auto touch-up that matches the deck, touch-up the holes. This procedure has worked for me on my O'Day 22 Good Luck!
Before you go about tearing the deck apart, you might try this. Define the solf area with hammer taps. Drill small (1/8") holes about 1/2" in from the outside edge of the "area." Also drill small holes at various spots across solf area. Spray "non-expanding" insulation foam (Home Depot, Lowes etc.) in the center holes, working towards the outer edge. Allow the foam to set-up. Clean out the foam that has exited the holes with the 1/8" drill. Fill the cleaned out holes with Marine-Tex. Use auto touch-up that matches the deck, touch-up the holes. This procedure has worked for me on my O'Day 22 Good Luck!
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Charlie
Warren Thanks for your idea. Certainly easier than tearing out the decks. How deep are the holes? Do you mean to just drill through the top layer of fiberglass or all the way through to let some water drain? Could you drill from the underside through the bottom layer of fiberglass only? I am also thinking of using a hole cutout tool on a drill to cutout a number of 1" holes about 3" centers in the bottom layer of fiberglass. Then using a bent nail or similar tool in a drill, ream out the rotten material. Then refill with ?? , replace the cutouts and add a layer of glass under it all. Then replace the liner. I would like to keep the decks uncut if possible. I also like Chucks proposal on using a penetrating epoxy as the area is about 12" sq. (I think). Charlie
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Warren
Follow-Up
I drill just through the "glass." All my repair was done from the top. I didn't remove the "wet" balsa as the foam cures in a wet enviorment. One thing i had to keep in mind is that this is an old boat, its not worth the effort to try to make it a "new" boat. My boat looks pretty good for 35 years old!
I drill just through the "glass." All my repair was done from the top. I didn't remove the "wet" balsa as the foam cures in a wet enviorment. One thing i had to keep in mind is that this is an old boat, its not worth the effort to try to make it a "new" boat. My boat looks pretty good for 35 years old!
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