Remove handrails

[jorgefife]

Here is an easier one to debate
When I bought the boat, the 3 hand rails on starboard side were broken, so I got (early days, 2 years ago) from a similar boat, other handrails which I cleaned up and varnished to perfectiion
Since I was scavenging from a similar boat, I removed also the ones (also 3) from port side, and did those too
Now soon I will be painting the deck with non-slip and want to remove the 3 on the deck, to make my work easier
Now here is the question: once removed, I will fill up the holes where the screws were with epoxy; do I drill out first the bad stuff inside? how much to drill? Because the screws do not go all the way through into the cabin.
Do I use the epoxy (never used the damn stuff!) that looks like a seringe and when pressed, two products come out at the same time? I have seen it at Home Depot, and it says they are for marine use
Or can you suggest anything else?
Then, when painted, do I drill through the middle of the holes again?
If they are filled and then painted with non-slip, how will I know where the holes were? Is there a trick to this that I should know?
I saw Ed Schenks boat, when he did it, how did you know Ed?
Sorry for what may seem to be dumb questions, but I should know so I can do a decent job
I will then proceed to do it exactly on the other side, fear not!
Thanks
Jorge

 

[med2463]

A few months ago I removed our handrails in order to paint the deck. I filled the holes with Boat Life caulking. I then put a straight pin in each hole, so that after painting the deck I would find the holes. I left the pins sticking up some, these were heavy duty pins with colored heads. The caulking also prevented any rain water from getting in the holes until I put the handrails back on.

 

[Ed Schenck]

So I guess you are asking because the "new" handrail holes will not match up to the old ones. Then you need to fill the old holes before painting. If so then just fill with a putty-like mix of epoxy. After it sets then sand and you will be ready for the non-skid.

For the new holes you could do what I did. I drilled 3/4" holes at the mark for the screw holes. Then I epoxied in a 3/4" hardwood dowel that was also soaked in epoxy. The dowels were cut about 2" in length. Then I drilled the pilot holes for the handrail screws into the center of the dowels. You can lift my boat from those handrails. And there is no way water will get into the coring.

About your lack of epoxy experience. Get the free West System booklets. I think the West Marine stores have them. Or order them. Buy the West System products with the pumps. I use small paper drinking cups and tongue depressers for mixing. One squirt each into the cup from the resin and hardener. Then mix in some filler, the booklets will tell you which filler is best for any project.

 

[jorgefife]

So I guess you are asking because the "new" handrail holes will not match up to the old ones. Then you need to fill the old holes before painting. If so then just fill with a putty-like mix of epoxy. After it sets then sand and you will be ready for the non-skid.

For the new holes you could do what I did. I drilled 3/4" holes at the mark for the screw holes. Then I epoxied in a 3/4" hardwood dowel that was also soaked in epoxy. The dowels were cut about 2" in length. Then I drilled the pilot holes for the handrail screws into the center of the dowels. You can lift my boat from those handrails. And there is no way water will get into the coring.

About your lack of epoxy experience. Get the free West System booklets. I think the West Marine stores have them. Or order them. Buy the West System products with the pumps. I use small paper drinking cups and tongue depressers for mixing. One squirt each into the cup from the resin and hardener. Then mix in some filler, the booklets will tell you which filler is best for any project.

Ed,
On second thoughts, once I remove the 3 hand rails, I think I will put them back agin once I restore them ( I have others already restored)
I will put them back, so that I can install exactly as you suggested.
MaryD's suggestion that I put a little pin marker is a great idea, so I know where they were. Thanks for the advice also about the West System epoxies, I hear they are very good
Thanks

 

[Jim Legere]

I am a big fan of drilling, tapping, and using machine screws instead of wood or self-tapping screws in fiberglass. I would drill out and intstall an epoxy plug, as Ed suggests, to protect the core. Then I would drill a pilot hole using the handrail as a guide. Its easy to tap a threaded hole in fiberglass or epoxy (or even hardwood!). Just use a drill one size smaller than recommended for any given tap size in metal. I think a #12 or a 1/4" machine screw would work well and be plenty strong on most handrails.

 

[sandpiper10471]

I am a fan of through bolting handrails. On my 33 I drilled through deck, core and liner with a bolt sized drill. Then I used a one inch drill on the liner for each hole. These were subsequently plugged with little plastic buttons made for this. I routed out the core around each hole with a bent allen key chucked in a drill. The bottoms of the holes were taped then filled with epoxy and cabosil by injecting with a syringe available from West System retailers. After the cure, the holes were redrilled from the bottom up. Then the refinished rails were set in compound.
Read Mainsail's excellent articles on cored deck hardware mounting (he uses a router bit instead of a chucked key) and butyl tape. Next time I would use his methods.

 

[Redbeard33]

sandpiper, I have been thinking of this same technique. Although the problem of how to finish off the liner had escaped me. Where are these plastic plugs sold? how much void is there in that region? Im assuming plenty of clearance for nuts etc....

 

[Ed Schenck]

I'll differ with Redhead on this subject if I may. It really is not necessary to go to all that trouble for handrails. My handrails screwed into those hardwood dowels will break off before those screws will pull out. Where bolt-through makes sense is for the long stainless rails. Those typically have two or more feet between attachment points and then maybe only three bolts on a four foot span. Those I would bolt. But our teak rails have a screw every twelve or so inches. My H37C rails would require thirty-four holes, bolts, and caps.

 

[jorgefife]

I'll differ with Redhead on this subject if I may. It really is not necessary to go to all that trouble for handrails. My handrails screwed into those hardwood dowels will break off before those screws will pull out. Where bolt-through makes sense is for the long stainless rails. Those typically have two or more feet between attachment points and then maybe only three bolts on a four foot span. Those I would bolt. But our teak rails have a screw every twelve or so inches. My H37C rails would require thirty-four holes, bolts, and caps.

I go with Ed on this, although your input is all appreciated
I am 6 feet 2 and would be knocking my head on the screws protruding into the cabin, even if they had covered ends
Thank you.
There is another easier request on the forum...

 

[Ed Schenck]

Thanks for the vote Jorge. But no, you would not be bumping your head. The plugs or caps fit flush with the headliner. Redhead is describing a way that the nuts and washers are countersunk in the coring. So don't throw out this idea for the wrong reason.

 

[Redbeard33]

I haunt done this, I was just commenting on sandpipers technique. I still have to prep and paint my deck and cabin trunk before I get to this project. Ed, do you think your technique would be strong enough to take offshore? the last thing i would want is to have a handful of teak watching the boat sail away without me

 

[Ed Schenck]

Offshore you never rely on the handrails anymore than you would the lifelines. A tether to a jackline is the only thing that is safe. We were lazy in the Atlantic. If conditions were mild to moderate we did not hook on. One morning at 0300 with the yankee poled out wing-on-wing and surfing at ten plus knots I was really glad to be in the harness. We were trying to get the pole down in winds gusting over 25 with big swells. You can't do that hanging on to a handrail.

P.S. repeating an earlier thought. Screwed or bolted the handrail will break, not pull out from the attachment point.

 

[sandpiper10471]

I like the handrails for tying down the dinghy, extra sails etc. which I do not wish to tow or store below. Offshore I would definitely want stainless ones. A wave washing the deck can remove things in a great hurry and 30 year old teak rails sanded thin over the years just might not make it. Through bolting is the strongest method of attachment that I know of.

On the 33 there is about an inch of clearance between the liner and the coachroof. The 37C doesn't have that space. So on your boat, you could hide the bolt ends and nuts behind the liner.

The plugs I get at a chandler in Toronto called The Rigging Shoppe. Not sure where else to source them. And they are CHEAP. At least they were 15 years ago.

 

[jorgefife]

I like the handrails for tying down the dinghy, extra sails etc. which I do not wish to tow or store below. Offshore I would definitely want stainless ones. A wave washing the deck can remove things in a great hurry and 30 year old teak rails sanded thin over the years just might not make it. Through bolting is the strongest method of attachment that I know of.

On the 33 there is about an inch of clearance between the liner and the coachroof. The 37C doesn't have that space. So on your boat, you could hide the bolt ends and nuts behind the liner.

The plugs I get at a chandler in Toronto called The Rigging Shoppe. Not sure where else to source them. And they are CHEAP. At least they were 15 years ago.

Ed, You touched briefly on a subject that I wanted to ask and just now remembered because you brought it up: where exactly should I install the jack lines? And is the fitting the one that looks like an "Omega" sign the right one to use? I have a bunch of them , courtesy of salvage yard... do I just screw on to the top of the boat, maybe starting above the companionway but where from and where to exactly? Anyuone with a H33 that has it? And do youn instal on both sides? Maybe just above the eybrow? That is my next project, happy yopu brought it up... or maybe not so happy for you, because now you are almost compelled to repply... sorry Ed!

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

I do not know, Ed, if I would go as far as to overdrill 3/4" holes for 1/4" or #12 fasteners. I have been getting away with about 3/8" or 1/2" holes. I start with a small pilot hole and then use a spade bitt with tape on it, stopping before going through the last (inside) layer of 'glass. The point breaks out at the pilot hole. Then I tape over this inside and flood the hole with epoxy. This is very satisfying when you see all that virgin balsa core getting soaked in the epoxy like it would never have got at any factory then or even now. (Note that you don't even have to go all the way through all the balsa as epoxy will saturate vertically even better than horizontally.) Then I drill another pilot hole through the epoxy and the correct hole for the bolt after that.

I am currently laying out the all-new deck plan on my boat and have been debating about how to mark out the hardware and handrails-- before or after the paint (which is Perfection)? I finally decided to tape over the drilled holes, paint, pick up the tape and use the bare area for the 5200. I have seen 5200 on 30-year-old raw-teak handrails hold so well that the deck was damaged (and the wood splintered to bits) before the 5200 let go. This is the ONLY thing I would use on handrails.

Ed, you mentioned that your handrails are on 12" centers. I copied my new ones from the C44s but they were too big in scale, so I reduced mine to 10" centers. This looks great. My problem is that I made them one loop too many so they appear to run too far down to the foredeck. Oh, well.

Redbeard, you said you preferred to through-bolt them? I thought of this, but knowing 5200 as I do and realizing that fat threads of a #12 are pretty reliable, I decided against it. My brother the engineer tells me that a long fastener (going through too much material) is far weaker, especially to wracking (working back and forth) than a shorter one. Long lengths of threaded rod should be generally avoided.

I also read someone (Jorge?) said that being tall there was a fear for whacking your head on the heads or the nuts inside. I have a pair of slats for the underside of the cabin through which all these handrail bolts come. They are far enough back that you'd have to be really tall and kneeling on the settee to hit your head on them. Also, using screws and not bolts I have have nice oval-head screws with trim washers (ah; such a forgotten item is the cupped finish washer!). That will hurt but nothing like a hex-head bolt (or, worse, the locknut should you insert bolts from the top).

I did research some nylon 1/4-20 acorn nuts and will use some for the foredeck hardware (after the locknuts of course) just because there isn't a a way away from these bitter ends under the deck.

At the end of the day we must remember to think of handrails as guides-- used as we surfers like to trail a finger in the water to avoid turning our heads to see where it is. They are NOT to save your life when you are pitched overboard but to help you keep your equilibrium and so keep from being pitched unawares in the first place.

I had a comment, as well as a question, about jacklines but maybe this isn't the forum for it and I'll wait to be asked/invited.

with

 

[jorgefife]

I do not know, Ed, if I would go as far as to overdrill 3/4" holes for 1/4" or #12 fasteners. I have been getting away with about 3/8" or 1/2" holes. I start with a small pilot hole and then use a spade bitt with tape on it, stopping before going through the last (inside) layer of 'glass. The point breaks out at the pilot hole. Then I tape over this inside and flood the hole with epoxy. This is very satisfying when you see all that virgin balsa core getting soaked in the epoxy like it would never have got at any factory then or even now. (Note that you don't even have to go all the way through all the balsa as epoxy will saturate vertically even better than horizontally.) Then I drill another pilot hole through the epoxy and the correct hole for the bolt after that.

I am currently laying out the all-new deck plan on my boat and have been debating about how to mark out the hardware and handrails-- before or after the paint (which is Perfection)? I finally decided to tape over the drilled holes, paint, pick up the tape and use the bare area for the 5200. I have seen 5200 on 30-year-old raw-teak handrails hold so well that the deck was damaged (and the wood splintered to bits) before the 5200 let go. This is the ONLY thing I would use on handrails.

Ed, you mentioned that your handrails are on 12" centers. I copied my new ones from the C44s but they were too big in scale, so I reduced mine to 10" centers. This looks great. My problem is that I made them one loop too many so they appear to run too far down to the foredeck. Oh, well.

Redbeard, you said you preferred to through-bolt them? I thought of this, but knowing 5200 as I do and realizing that fat threads of a #12 are pretty reliable, I decided against it. My brother the engineer tells me that a long fastener (going through too much material) is far weaker, especially to wracking (working back and forth) than a shorter one. Long lengths of threaded rod should be generally avoided.

I also read someone (Jorge?) said that being tall there was a fear for whacking your head on the heads or the nuts inside. I have a pair of slats for the underside of the cabin through which all these handrail bolts come. They are far enough back that you'd have to be really tall and kneeling on the settee to hit your head on them. Also, using screws and not bolts I have have nice oval-head screws with trim washers (ah; such a forgotten item is the cupped finish washer!). That will hurt but nothing like a hex-head bolt (or, worse, the locknut should you insert bolts from the top).

I did research some nylon 1/4-20 acorn nuts and will use some for the foredeck hardware (after the locknuts of course) just because there isn't a a way away from these bitter ends under the deck.

At the end of the day we must remember to think of handrails as guides-- used as we surfers like to trail a finger in the water to avoid turning our heads to see where it is. They are NOT to save your life when you are pitched overboard but to help you keep your equilibrium and so keep from being pitched unawares in the first place.

I had a comment, as well as a question, about jacklines but maybe this isn't the forum for it and I'll wait to be asked/invited.

with

John,
Please do repply to my questions regarding what straps/harnesses to use (with a clip at the front) and where exactly should my jacklines be installed
Got many good informative comments, but all about different boats than mine: already learned that the jacklines can be/mustbe removed, and only brought back when you actually go sailing
But where should the eyes be on the deck?

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

I found Jorge's question about jacklines and pretty much just asked the same thing!