Recutting a Jib

[Rob McClain]

I have a 2001 Hunter 340 with the Seldin in-mast furling. We have the Furlex reefing system for the jib and that sail is the stock 110% cut. Because the local conditions on SF bay often require reefing, and that is often substantial reefing, and because the jib does not perform nearly as well when it is reefed, I am wondering about having it recut to a 90% size. By doing so I would not have to reef it as much and the shape would be better at that size (as opposed to being reefed to about 90%). I believe this would be more manageable most of the time. I also like the added visibility provided by that cut.

I understand that the fractional rig is meant to have the main reefed first, followed by the jib as that becomes necessary. How would this cut effect normal sailing conditions and the balance of the boat? Am I better off having the jib furled a bit and just puttering with the shape in lieu of having it recut? I am not a racer and speed is not of paramount importance. Rather a nice comfortable sail is what we enjoy. I am not well versed in this matter and appreciate any feedback...

Rob

 

[Joe]

I think a smaller jib would unbalance the boat. Why don't you reef the main first? Back in the day, we sailed the bay with masthead rigged sloops. The set up was big driving headsail, small or reefed main with no roach. With a fractionally rigged boat it should be the opposite. You have a huge roach, right?, the power is in the main... so reef that first... after all you have the pricey Selden gear... use it. If you never use the 110, and always reef it... then cut it down. But if you use it on occasion... don't. By the way, it makes no difference whether you race or not. It's about having a balanced comfortable helm.

 

[BobM]

If you don't have a foam or rope luff in the 110% I'd do that first. I was amazed at how good the shape of my 135 is when I reefed to about 100% last year. I tried reefing the 110% once on my old boat and the shape was just awful so I never tried it again. When you talk to the sailmaker about putting the foam luff in ask his or her advice about further work.

It may be that, rather than focusing on making the sail smaller, a sailmaker may recomend to take some of the belly out of it instead. Have you attempted to adjust the sail trim at all to do the same? Don can correct me, but a little more halyard tension and tension at the base of the furler might help. Also, if you have any of those draw string adjusters on the leech of the sail to cup it you should release them to allow the wind to dump out.

Given that you have main furling, you have no excuse not to put a reef in the main. That is definitely the first thing to do before reefing the genoa. Once again, a little more tension on the main halyard (however you do that with a main furler!) and a tight outhaul to keep your main flat will make a world of difference in my (albiet limited) experience.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Jib Experiences on San Francisco Bay

I understand you have a different rig than our masthead rigged C34, but we both sail in the same conditions.

On our C25 (1981 boat, owned from 1987 to 1998) we had an 85 and 110 jibs, hank on. We would run the 85 during the summer with what I called the April to September reef in the main. Boat was perfectly balanced for the 25 knots in the Slot.

On our C34 (1986 boat, owned 1998 to present) we have a ProFurl furler, with a 95 blade and a stock 110. The 95 is a cut down old 110 (long story, not worth going into here). We do not use the furler as reefing device, because we do the same thing with our jibs on the C34 as we did on the C25: the right jib for the right season.

The boat balance issue I think, as discussed above by others, is incorrect. They simply do not understand how the wind works here on the Bay, and that while it can be honkin' on the main Bay, it's different in the South Bay or up by Richmond. Boat balance malarkey! because we HAVE TO set our rigs up for the worst case windier conditions in the main bay and then later add sail, rather than trying to reef on the run. Least I do.

If it's windy I use the smaller jib and so we go a tad slower when the wind is less in different parts of the Bay or going downwind. Bob and Joe are both right in their suggestions to you.

That said, during our racing "career" (1999 to 2006), we ran our 110 during the summer. Our one-design fleet allows a max 130 jib, but I didn't have, and did want to spend, the $$ on a bigger headsail, and worked with the handicap for the smaller jib and did well, and had fun.

I think before you CUT anything, that the very best thing you can do is reef the main first, because of your fractional rig. That discussion above is correct. You may well find that a reefed main and the 110 will work for you even in the Slot going up from TI to Angel Island, because we've done that regularly with our 110 when racing and our masthead rigs get their power from the jib.

Then, if you find you still would feel more comfortable with a smaller jib, start with the recommended luff enhancements and reef the jib, too.

If that still doesn't work for you, I don't know what will other than a smaller jib. But I really believe you won't have to go that far (or that small ).

And Bob's suggestion of FLAT sails is right on - only way to go in windy conditions. Don't know what kinda sails and what cuts you currently have, but a reef in the main will inherently flatten it out.

We sail out of Grand Marina in Alameda.

 

[Rob McClain]

I appreciate the feedback folks. Stu, you describe the SF conditions well! I always reef the main first. Thankfully, with the in-mast furling the sail does not have that large roach cut that the traditional Hunter rig comes with. The jib is always the second sail to reef when conditions call for it, and the shape it then takes is what I am displeased with. I had not thought about the foam luff and that is an intriguing suggestion. I have draw stings on the jib and I do keep them released. I know I need to talk to one of our local sailmakers, and we certainly have several in Alameda, but first I just want to get some feedback from folks in this forum. I'm always pleased by the expertise offered and the spirit that exists on this site. Thanks!

Rob
Marina Village YH

 

[Stu Jackson]

Rob, glad we could help. Please stop with the "draw strings!" Sounds fun, doesn't it. Leech line and foot (?) line. I'm sure of the leech line, not sure about the foot, perhaps someone with a book or a check on a sailmaker's 'site will correct me. They just ain't draw strings, that's all!

You may want to consider a second reef, too, if you have one on your main. I've used ours only twice in 11 years, but was glad it was there. With your "main driven" boat, it makes sense. Sail flat, sail fast, sail safe.

 

[Rob McClain]

Stu, ya mean draw strings aren't a nautical term? Just kidding... I actually did not know the technical term for those lines, although I probably shouldn't admit that. There have been times going around Alcatraz that my main has been furled close to 1/2 way. I don't usually wrap that much, but when it's really blowing through the slot I find that it makes for better handling (and a more comfortable ride). That is what I like about the in-mast furling. I can reef (and subsequently adjust) to absolutely any point.

Rob

 

[RichH]

Several suggestions to consider before recutting, etc. the headsail.

1. too much forestay sag.
Im not specifically familiar with the typical B&R rig on most Hunters and I surmise that the B&R with its lack of backstay may be one of the main causes of the undesirable jib shape of the headsail when sailing in the higher wind ranges .... sagging to leeward luff/forestay and bad shape when partly rolled/reefed. A sagging-to-leeward jib luff, due to a too-slack forestay, will most certainly result in poor shape (+ aggressive heel, and slower boat). So, my suggestion is to consult with a SF rigger who is fully knowledgeable/familiar with the B&R and increase the B&R adjustment so that you get a much tighter ***FORESTAY*** tension. "Plain vanilla" rig tension (and sail design) is usually set for 12-15kts. of windstrength; if you are customarily sailing in winds above 12-15 then a much 'tighter rig' (especially tighter forestay) is in order or the headsail shape/performance will be much different than that 'designed into the sail'.

1a. If you 'overtighten' or apply a LOT of winch tension to a jib sheet you will increase the 'luff curve' or "luff hollow" of a headsail ... the sail gets flatter BUT the draft artificially moves more aft due to the sag now imparted by the extreme pressure from the winch. If you overtighten the jibsheets you MUST apply more tension to the forestay (hard/impossible to do without an adjustable backstay!) so that the loads are 'balanced' and the jib can take its proper designed luff shape.
Simple speak: ease jibsheet pressure and see what happens.

2. Jib Halyard tension.
Increase luff tension via the jib halyard (but dont jam the furler) to get/move the draft of the headsail more forward.

3. More on luff/forestay sag + **recutting the luff shape*** to **MATCH** the usual/expected amount of forestay sag at the higher windranges.
Also infers a sagging-to-leeward jib luff/forestay but this recommends a different approach to correction. The difference between a 110 and 90% is not all that much. I wouldnt cutdown a 110 into a 90 as you will not gain much. A good furler system, a 'modern' & properly cut jib from a 'quality' sail loft (even without added foam luff pads) should easily be able to be reduced in SA area by approx. 30% SA without developing 'bad shape'; therefore, I'm suspecting that yours is not the typical 'reefing down' problem. Most 'modern sail cuts' dont require 'foam luffs' ... Id add a foam luff as a 'last resort'. I'd suggest that if the above rig/running rig tension/tuning adjustment dont make correction, then discuss with a sailmaker about: re-cutting a "deeper" luff hollow (the smooth curved leading edge shape of the 110%) ... will require removing the 'continuous support tape - that which fits INTO the groove on the furler', cutting a deeper 'luff hollow' (curve along the luff) at the leading edge - **to compensate for the 'sagging forestay'**, then reinstalling the 'continuous support tape'. The sailmaker will HAVE to come to boat and sail it during the higher wind speeds to precisely SEE (take pics of) how much the luff needs to be corrected and reshaped. --- not going to be 'cheap'.

On a boat with an adjustable backstay .... all you'd need to do is increase tension on the backstay to correct the forestay sag and return the jib to its 'designed' shape. Thats why Im suspicious that the real problem primarily is that your B&R rig is set up too loose for the wind speeds that you are sailing in.

Sagging forestay, how to check:
When on a hard beat and sitting near the aft/helm on the LEE side of the boat, use the mast as a visual straight edge and compare with the *curve* that you see in the forestay, estimate the 'maximum curve' that you see along the forestay/furler foil IN INCHES ... a leeward sag of ±8 inches in a 42ft. luff sail is 'tolerable'; betcha yours at the higher winds is much much greater than that.

I can email you an easy method of how to measure the 'luff hollow' that was originally cut into the sail. For a properly set up and tensioned rig the forestay sag that develops MUST MATCH that shape of the 'luff hollow' ... or you get deplorable sail shape and degraded/rotten boat performance. You can email me at RhmpL33...AT...att...DOT...net and I will reply with my .PDF data/article which will make this sag-to-leeward phenomenon much 'clearer'.

In any case, please be sure to let us know how this turns out and what changes you made, etc.

Hope this helps. ;—)

 

[seadaddler]

Reef the Main

I very seldom reef my jib when the wind really picks up,instead I reef in my furling main.
I would be sailing and doing 6 knots or better in 15 knots or more of wind but getting over powered with extreme heeling,I reef in the main until I get the boat speed back up to 6 knots or more and less heel with a smoother ride.
You need to learn to reef your furling main to get the boat to handle better,
it is doable just reef more until you learn how much to reef in the sail and keep good boat speed.
You will need that 110 jib in light air,most Hunter owners are asking for a bigger jib which is not good to do either.
The whole idea of the furling main is to make reefing easy for different wind conditions,I am far from a sail trim expert but this is what I do on my H-36 with 110 jib and furling main.
Nick

 

[seadaddler]

Reef the Main

I very seldom reef my jib when the wind really picks up,instead I reef in my furling main.
I would be sailing and doing 6 knots or better in 15 knots or more of wind but getting over powered with extreme heeling,I reef in the main until I get the boat speed back up to 6 knots or more and less heel with a smoother ride.
You need to learn to reef your furling main to get the boat to handle better,
it is doable just reef more until you learn how much to reef in the sail and keep good boat speed.
You will need that 110 jib in light air,most Hunter owners are asking for a bigger jib which is not good to do either.
The whole idea of the furling main is to make reefing easy for different wind conditions,I am far from a sail trim expert but this is what I do on my H-36 with 110 jib and furling main.
Nick

 

[Stu Jackson]

Local sail guy

ROOSTER Sails, Ruis Luis now in Grand Marina is a great guy to check your existing jib. Many of my friends have "discovered" him, too. Great guy, great work, fair prices.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Yes, it IS a nautical term

Stu, ya mean draw strings aren't a nautical term? Just kidding...

You never heard of "belts, suspenders and draw strings?"

Backup, backup, backups...:dance::dance::dance:

 

[Rob McClain]

Stu, yes I've heard of Rooster Sails. In fact, I had him make an anchor riding sail for me. I had purchased a Sailrite kit and once my wife felt the thickness of the sail cloth she told me she was concerned that the thickness might damage her sewing machine. Since that wasn't a cheap machine I didn't want to risk it so I decided to ask Rui to do it at his convenience and he charged a very fair price and even did a couple of special things at no extra charge. I was very pleased and definitely recommend him. The other perk of using him is that the jib was made by UK and he shares the loft with them. I seriously doubt that I'll have it cut, but I do want to seek their expertise as I research this more and try to resolve the shape issue.

Rob