I plan on rebedding all the deck fittings on my '79 O'Day 25 this fall prior to rainy season. 25 years has taken it's toll on whatever O'Day used for rebedding material back then. I have some small leaks but no huge issues with water but I want to waterproof those fittings for the next 25 years when I will be too old to sail or care. What collective wisdom is on this site to give some advice about what would be the best rebedding compound to use???? Thanks in advance ken in sacramento
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- Jan 22, 2008
- 519
What I use
Some may recommend 3M 5200 (or is it 5300?), but it is very permanant and will make it tough to remove hardware bedded with it. Good stuff, but consider it permanant. I like silicone for several reasons. 1. It dries flexible, so deck hardware that might move even slightly will stay sealed. 2. If you you want to remove a fitting so bedded, it is not a horrible job to clean off the old silicone. Life Caulk or Life Seal is not a bad choice in my opinion. A little messier than silicone. If you go silicone do not buy the marine stuff. Go to the hardware store and buy that stuff - it is the same as only 1 or 2 companies nationwide make the stuff. I am old school and this has worked for me over the years.
Some may recommend 3M 5200 (or is it 5300?), but it is very permanant and will make it tough to remove hardware bedded with it. Good stuff, but consider it permanant. I like silicone for several reasons. 1. It dries flexible, so deck hardware that might move even slightly will stay sealed. 2. If you you want to remove a fitting so bedded, it is not a horrible job to clean off the old silicone. Life Caulk or Life Seal is not a bad choice in my opinion. A little messier than silicone. If you go silicone do not buy the marine stuff. Go to the hardware store and buy that stuff - it is the same as only 1 or 2 companies nationwide make the stuff. I am old school and this has worked for me over the years.
Life Caulk for me too!
Ken: I am with Higgs on this one. I have had great success with Life Caulk for bedding hardware. When you use this or any other product it is best to throughly clean the area/hardware. I like to squeeze some caulking into the screw holes to prevent water from getting into the core. Then apply the caulking. Only tighten the hardware down so it makes full contact with the hardware & bedding area. Let it cure for about 24 hours before torquing down the bolts/screws to their proper tightness. This method allows the caulking to form a gasket between the areas. If you tighten down the hardware before it has a chance to setup, most of the caulking will ooze out.
Ken: I am with Higgs on this one. I have had great success with Life Caulk for bedding hardware. When you use this or any other product it is best to throughly clean the area/hardware. I like to squeeze some caulking into the screw holes to prevent water from getting into the core. Then apply the caulking. Only tighten the hardware down so it makes full contact with the hardware & bedding area. Let it cure for about 24 hours before torquing down the bolts/screws to their proper tightness. This method allows the caulking to form a gasket between the areas. If you tighten down the hardware before it has a chance to setup, most of the caulking will ooze out.
You'll be very sorry if you use 4200
You don't need a glue, you need a sealant. Silicone has worked fine for me for 25 years.
You don't need a glue, you need a sealant. Silicone has worked fine for me for 25 years.
Our local yard recommends and uses 3M4200...
above the waterline and 3M5200 below. They are sealants not adhesives. I'll never use Silicone on our boat. Worst stuff ever made...well except if you want to bond glass together for your aquarium. Terry
above the waterline and 3M5200 below. They are sealants not adhesives. I'll never use Silicone on our boat. Worst stuff ever made...well except if you want to bond glass together for your aquarium. Terry
Rebedding & leaks
Ken - Don't know your O25, but my '78 O'Day 27 has a balsa cored deck, and virtually everything that was fastened to and thru it has allowed a small amount of water to seep in over the years, causing a small amount of deterioration to the core adjacent to the fastener holes. The best approach is outlined in a West System handbook : it involves drilling an oversized hole ( and removing any rotted core material) and filling it with a thickened epoxy mixture. When the epoxy has cured, then drill the correct size hole for your fasteners, apply the bedding material & refasten the item. If you don't intend (or need to ) remove something again, use 3M5200. In my opinion it provided a superior seal, but it is also an adhesive. 3M4200 is supposed to have the same sealing ability, but is intended for stuff that may be removed periodically. I don't think it is as good as 5200, but that's just my opinion. Silicones, and there are a lot of different formulations available, are wonderful products within their limits, but I don't think they are appropriate for your application.
Ken - Don't know your O25, but my '78 O'Day 27 has a balsa cored deck, and virtually everything that was fastened to and thru it has allowed a small amount of water to seep in over the years, causing a small amount of deterioration to the core adjacent to the fastener holes. The best approach is outlined in a West System handbook : it involves drilling an oversized hole ( and removing any rotted core material) and filling it with a thickened epoxy mixture. When the epoxy has cured, then drill the correct size hole for your fasteners, apply the bedding material & refasten the item. If you don't intend (or need to ) remove something again, use 3M5200. In my opinion it provided a superior seal, but it is also an adhesive. 3M4200 is supposed to have the same sealing ability, but is intended for stuff that may be removed periodically. I don't think it is as good as 5200, but that's just my opinion. Silicones, and there are a lot of different formulations available, are wonderful products within their limits, but I don't think they are appropriate for your application.
sealants
I used sikaflex292 a few years back on my chainplates ,seems to be holding up fine. I would like to know if any of you have tried this particular caulk and how long is it good for .
I used sikaflex292 a few years back on my chainplates ,seems to be holding up fine. I would like to know if any of you have tried this particular caulk and how long is it good for .
Actually.....
Actually Polyurethanes are considered adhesive/sealants. Polysulfides are considered caulking/sealants. Check out "The West Advisor" for detailed descriptions of the different products and their intended usage. I personally see little if any value in using the polyurethanes to caulk deck fittings that need to be replaced, repaired or rebuilt periodically. I have not needed to re-do any item that I put down with Life Caulk (polysulfide).
Actually Polyurethanes are considered adhesive/sealants. Polysulfides are considered caulking/sealants. Check out "The West Advisor" for detailed descriptions of the different products and their intended usage. I personally see little if any value in using the polyurethanes to caulk deck fittings that need to be replaced, repaired or rebuilt periodically. I have not needed to re-do any item that I put down with Life Caulk (polysulfide).
I've always liked "Life Seal"
For rebedding things like hatches and such. It kind of a cross between a Polyurethane and a silicone. Where it has the sealant/adhesion of a Polyurethane but the pliability, stretch and ease of use like a Silicone I have used Life Caulk, but the stuff is extreemly messy to work with and takes a long time to cure (up to 7 days even in a moist environment and even then I have still been able to smear it). Ps. Be careful of Life Caulk on plastics , it might melt some http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/selectsealents.htm http://www.boatlife.com/productsdetail.cfm?recordID=55&cat=CS
For rebedding things like hatches and such. It kind of a cross between a Polyurethane and a silicone. Where it has the sealant/adhesion of a Polyurethane but the pliability, stretch and ease of use like a Silicone I have used Life Caulk, but the stuff is extreemly messy to work with and takes a long time to cure (up to 7 days even in a moist environment and even then I have still been able to smear it). Ps. Be careful of Life Caulk on plastics , it might melt some http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/westadvisor/10001/-1/10001/selectsealents.htm http://www.boatlife.com/productsdetail.cfm?recordID=55&cat=CS
Do not use 5200 or 4200..
The guys at Hinckley Yachts used to use 3M 101 and I beleive they ether still use it or Sikaflex 292 I see both products in the yard there frequently. 4200 is NOT easy to get off and NOT flexible enough for any sort of joint movement like you'll see on a stanchion. I ripped gelcoat off the substrate trying to remove a pad eye installed on a friends boat a year earlier with 4200 and I can tell you this stuff was hard a definately not very flexible. It took us three days to patch the gel coat and it still does not match very well! that job should have taken ten minutes instead it took a total of four days because he used 4200. I have removed gear installed with 3M 101 after five years and the stuff was still gooey, very flexible and the piece came apart very easily. I have also used Sikaflex 292 (used by most of the "gourmet" builders here in Maine) and it works very well but is a good bit more adherant so I prefer 101. Don't fall into the boat yard trap of use 5200 because it's supposed to be permnanent! Nothing on a boat is permanent and you dont need to "glue" pieces that have mechanical fittings like nuts and bolts already holding the part in place!!! The sealant is reffered to as bedding for a reason and thats because it's supposed to be a sealant NOT a mechanical fitting! The only areas 5200 should ever be used on is perhaps the deck to hull joint and the keel stub but I even question it's use in those areas due to 5200's lack of flexibity! There are far better products out there than 5200, 4200 and 4000UV. There are only three products NOT allowed to even set foot on my boats and they are silicone in any form including Armour All and 5200 & 4200. I seal through hulls with Sikaflex.. Also 25 years is way, way, way to long between re-beddings & I'd bet you have some serious core damage around some of those holes. Be sure that the areas you re-bed are bone dry before re-bedding. If you have to, remove in the fall, seal the hole from the top with a dollup of 101 but don't squirt it into the hole just a dollup on top and let it air dry from the bottom. Sometimes a lightbulb can be used to force dry the moisture if it's real bad. If your deck is balsa you'll need to grind out the rotten core and back fill with epoxy. I have a brand new 2005 boat and have already re-beded the stanchions & 70% of the rest of the deck piercing items for my own piece of mind (I don't trust any factory). I used 3M 101. Don't wait 25 years next time because by the time you actually get a drip inside the damage has been done. Drips from up above migrate into the wood deck first and then when it's saturated it drips into the cabin!!
The guys at Hinckley Yachts used to use 3M 101 and I beleive they ether still use it or Sikaflex 292 I see both products in the yard there frequently. 4200 is NOT easy to get off and NOT flexible enough for any sort of joint movement like you'll see on a stanchion. I ripped gelcoat off the substrate trying to remove a pad eye installed on a friends boat a year earlier with 4200 and I can tell you this stuff was hard a definately not very flexible. It took us three days to patch the gel coat and it still does not match very well! that job should have taken ten minutes instead it took a total of four days because he used 4200. I have removed gear installed with 3M 101 after five years and the stuff was still gooey, very flexible and the piece came apart very easily. I have also used Sikaflex 292 (used by most of the "gourmet" builders here in Maine) and it works very well but is a good bit more adherant so I prefer 101. Don't fall into the boat yard trap of use 5200 because it's supposed to be permnanent! Nothing on a boat is permanent and you dont need to "glue" pieces that have mechanical fittings like nuts and bolts already holding the part in place!!! The sealant is reffered to as bedding for a reason and thats because it's supposed to be a sealant NOT a mechanical fitting! The only areas 5200 should ever be used on is perhaps the deck to hull joint and the keel stub but I even question it's use in those areas due to 5200's lack of flexibity! There are far better products out there than 5200, 4200 and 4000UV. There are only three products NOT allowed to even set foot on my boats and they are silicone in any form including Armour All and 5200 & 4200. I seal through hulls with Sikaflex.. Also 25 years is way, way, way to long between re-beddings & I'd bet you have some serious core damage around some of those holes. Be sure that the areas you re-bed are bone dry before re-bedding. If you have to, remove in the fall, seal the hole from the top with a dollup of 101 but don't squirt it into the hole just a dollup on top and let it air dry from the bottom. Sometimes a lightbulb can be used to force dry the moisture if it's real bad. If your deck is balsa you'll need to grind out the rotten core and back fill with epoxy. I have a brand new 2005 boat and have already re-beded the stanchions & 70% of the rest of the deck piercing items for my own piece of mind (I don't trust any factory). I used 3M 101. Don't wait 25 years next time because by the time you actually get a drip inside the damage has been done. Drips from up above migrate into the wood deck first and then when it's saturated it drips into the cabin!!
Always use Sikaflex 292 as well.
for the same reasons you have listed. It keeps its flexibility.
for the same reasons you have listed. It keeps its flexibility.
My 2 cents
Sikaflex 292 is a nice bonding product, on J24 we used to use 4200 simply because the stantion were getting loads of abuse (leaning on them to roll tack etc) so I think 292 is fine for the O'day. To remove 4200 put some acetone on it... If you have a bit of leaking in the cabin under the stantions it is likely that it is because when the balsa core get saturated with water the extra water drips in the cabin. So what would I suggeest to look at when you remove the stantions? Rot in the balsa core, if there is some you can grind the deck that will be under the stantion but make certain to leave some firberglass in order to keep the shape of the deck, then you can use an allan key in a drill bit to "reach" the rotten balsa under the fiberglass. Then tape the holes from the cabin side, fill will epoxy follow the shape of the deck and let it dry, come back drill your new holes, use your choice of bedding, tight until it oozes from under the base and let that dry, then tight properly. Do yourself a favour: Put decent backing plates (plastic ,allu, or stainless). Put some bedding on the threads of the bolts so if water get under the heads it will not run following the thread pattern. If you fear there is still some moisture in the balsa, before filling with epoxy spray some acetone on the balsa wait one minute and then pour your epoxy. Acetone "draws" moisture out of the wood. My two cents. That job is on our list too! a.
Sikaflex 292 is a nice bonding product, on J24 we used to use 4200 simply because the stantion were getting loads of abuse (leaning on them to roll tack etc) so I think 292 is fine for the O'day. To remove 4200 put some acetone on it... If you have a bit of leaking in the cabin under the stantions it is likely that it is because when the balsa core get saturated with water the extra water drips in the cabin. So what would I suggeest to look at when you remove the stantions? Rot in the balsa core, if there is some you can grind the deck that will be under the stantion but make certain to leave some firberglass in order to keep the shape of the deck, then you can use an allan key in a drill bit to "reach" the rotten balsa under the fiberglass. Then tape the holes from the cabin side, fill will epoxy follow the shape of the deck and let it dry, come back drill your new holes, use your choice of bedding, tight until it oozes from under the base and let that dry, then tight properly. Do yourself a favour: Put decent backing plates (plastic ,allu, or stainless). Put some bedding on the threads of the bolts so if water get under the heads it will not run following the thread pattern. If you fear there is still some moisture in the balsa, before filling with epoxy spray some acetone on the balsa wait one minute and then pour your epoxy. Acetone "draws" moisture out of the wood. My two cents. That job is on our list too! a.
You might look at "Git Rot" too
After you dry the core as best you can you apply "Git Rot" which is a very thin viscous epoxy that wicks up into the wood via capillary action http://www.boatlife.com/productsdetail.cfm?recordID=18&cat=WMR
After you dry the core as best you can you apply "Git Rot" which is a very thin viscous epoxy that wicks up into the wood via capillary action http://www.boatlife.com/productsdetail.cfm?recordID=18&cat=WMR
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