A quick question How important is it to rebed the hardware on the deck? My boat is 10 years old, I shrinkwrap it in the fall (so no water sits and freezes on the deck). I am thinking that this preventative work is done to keep water out of the decks. If it is done, what is the correct method to do it? Thanks
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That does not help
keep water out of the wood core. Rain is the problem. You have to keep in out of the core. Look for brown stain around deck hardware or cracking in the gel coat.
keep water out of the wood core. Rain is the problem. You have to keep in out of the core. Look for brown stain around deck hardware or cracking in the gel coat.
Bedding compound
You can use bedding compound but, I've had good luck with mildew resistant silicone. Preventing water seepage into the core and gap filler is its main purpose.
You can use bedding compound but, I've had good luck with mildew resistant silicone. Preventing water seepage into the core and gap filler is its main purpose.
Very good p/m.
Peter: This is a very good preventative maintenance measure. Most of us (me included) put this off until there is a leak or something that just forced us to do this. The main thing that you need to consider is the proper caulking for the job. I think that there may have been a link posted by one of our fine active memeber a year or two ago. It showed the type of product that should be used for the material being caulked (IE: plastics-fiberglass, stainless-fiberglass, teak-fiberglass etc.) The next thing to consider is the brand of caulking. (Boatlife, 3M, GE, DOW, Sikeflex etc). Preparation of boat surfaces is also important, be sure to prepare both surfaces by cleaning them throughly. If you are rebedding teak, you may want to revarnish it while it is off. You would also want to wipe the contact surface with acetone to remove any excess oils. When you remote an item be sure not to tighten it down while the caulking is wet. It is best to only tighten down enough to seat the item so the caulking makes complete contact with each mounting surface and stop. Let the piece set for 18-24 hours while the caulking cures. Then come back the tighten to the proper torque. This will allow the caulking for form a 'gasket' and allow a much better seal. I usually put some caulking down in the mounting holes too (also trying to protect the cores area). Take your time, pick the best product and type of caulking for each piece of hardware and it will last for another 10-15 years or longer.
Peter: This is a very good preventative maintenance measure. Most of us (me included) put this off until there is a leak or something that just forced us to do this. The main thing that you need to consider is the proper caulking for the job. I think that there may have been a link posted by one of our fine active memeber a year or two ago. It showed the type of product that should be used for the material being caulked (IE: plastics-fiberglass, stainless-fiberglass, teak-fiberglass etc.) The next thing to consider is the brand of caulking. (Boatlife, 3M, GE, DOW, Sikeflex etc). Preparation of boat surfaces is also important, be sure to prepare both surfaces by cleaning them throughly. If you are rebedding teak, you may want to revarnish it while it is off. You would also want to wipe the contact surface with acetone to remove any excess oils. When you remote an item be sure not to tighten it down while the caulking is wet. It is best to only tighten down enough to seat the item so the caulking makes complete contact with each mounting surface and stop. Let the piece set for 18-24 hours while the caulking cures. Then come back the tighten to the proper torque. This will allow the caulking for form a 'gasket' and allow a much better seal. I usually put some caulking down in the mounting holes too (also trying to protect the cores area). Take your time, pick the best product and type of caulking for each piece of hardware and it will last for another 10-15 years or longer.
Re-bedding Hardware
Don Casey has some good tips for rebedding hardware in books and pamplets available in most West/BoatUS stores. The "theory" of it mostly involves re-boring the original holes to something a big bigger, filling the hole with epoxy resin to soak the inner core and make it waterproof, and then re-drilling the hole to the size of your bolts, filling the hole with the right sealant for the parts being mated, and then tightening down a bit. As mentioned below, the idea is to make the sealant into a gasket and then do the final tightening after a few days once the sealant has set. Having said all this, you need to be VERY careful with the use of epoxy (or any liquid used to seal the core material) if you are working in an area where the hull liner is below. I almost had a disaster when I was adding a horn cleat on the cabin top of my Hunter 28.5 and started pouring in epoxy to seal the core there. The underside of the holes were taped to trap the epoxy, but I didn't realize the epoxy would run down the innter side of the hull liner, leak out onto the head shelf and make a mess. If I hadn't noticed this leak and the epoxy had set, it would have been awful....
Don Casey has some good tips for rebedding hardware in books and pamplets available in most West/BoatUS stores. The "theory" of it mostly involves re-boring the original holes to something a big bigger, filling the hole with epoxy resin to soak the inner core and make it waterproof, and then re-drilling the hole to the size of your bolts, filling the hole with the right sealant for the parts being mated, and then tightening down a bit. As mentioned below, the idea is to make the sealant into a gasket and then do the final tightening after a few days once the sealant has set. Having said all this, you need to be VERY careful with the use of epoxy (or any liquid used to seal the core material) if you are working in an area where the hull liner is below. I almost had a disaster when I was adding a horn cleat on the cabin top of my Hunter 28.5 and started pouring in epoxy to seal the core there. The underside of the holes were taped to trap the epoxy, but I didn't realize the epoxy would run down the innter side of the hull liner, leak out onto the head shelf and make a mess. If I hadn't noticed this leak and the epoxy had set, it would have been awful....
When I set deck
Hardware I countersink the fastener holes on the deck side and place a ring of caulk around each bolt. Then when I tighten things down the caulk squeeses into the counter sink and forms an "o-ring" type seal around the bolt. Remember when the caulk claims to tolerate 50 per cent joint movement if the joint is paper thin, then 50 percent of the thickness of the paper is all you get.
Hardware I countersink the fastener holes on the deck side and place a ring of caulk around each bolt. Then when I tighten things down the caulk squeeses into the counter sink and forms an "o-ring" type seal around the bolt. Remember when the caulk claims to tolerate 50 per cent joint movement if the joint is paper thin, then 50 percent of the thickness of the paper is all you get.
Butyle Tape
Peter, It's a good idea to rebed all deck fittings. Water enters the core and traveles between the deck and liner....you sometimes don't even notice a leak until the core gets soft. You should really over-drill all holes in the deck where screws and bolts go through and seal the core with epoxy, resin or marin-tex...then re-drill a smaller hole for the screw or bolt enter. What I do (as I never hav enough time to do it the right way) is use a 2-step process: I use Butyle tape (google it and you can find a place online seeling it) - it is a soft, plyable tape that never hardens. I use it on the fitting where it meets the deck...but also add a high-grade sealant (GE - 3M) in the srcew holes to seal the core. The soft butyle tape will flex with the deck and fitting providing a good seal...the sealant inside the hole adds to the process. Good luck! Rob
Peter, It's a good idea to rebed all deck fittings. Water enters the core and traveles between the deck and liner....you sometimes don't even notice a leak until the core gets soft. You should really over-drill all holes in the deck where screws and bolts go through and seal the core with epoxy, resin or marin-tex...then re-drill a smaller hole for the screw or bolt enter. What I do (as I never hav enough time to do it the right way) is use a 2-step process: I use Butyle tape (google it and you can find a place online seeling it) - it is a soft, plyable tape that never hardens. I use it on the fitting where it meets the deck...but also add a high-grade sealant (GE - 3M) in the srcew holes to seal the core. The soft butyle tape will flex with the deck and fitting providing a good seal...the sealant inside the hole adds to the process. Good luck! Rob
Agree with almost everything posted...
be very careful to use a sealant, NOT an adhesive. An adhesive will make doing this down the road (either for you or for the next owner) extremely difficult. Besides, most adhesives, even if they also proport to be great sealants, are not as pliable. And you want the sealant to be pliable. Toward that end, read through Don Casey's book, "Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair". Everything Rob put in his post is in Casey's book, and then some with drawings and fairly detailed How-To instructions. I do respectfully disagree with Ross' post, provided that I have read it correctly. Countersinking your deck will weaken the gel coat, and bring the edge of the hole closer to the edge of the hardware. It will ultimately leak. No problem with countersinking the deck hardware or teak handrails (most of it already is). My preference would be to use a bolt with a flat surface mated to the flat surface of the deck/boat. By example, using a bolt to secure a new piece of acrylic window. Instead of counter sinking the acrylic, I used a flat headed bolt with a finish washer; it was neater and I had more mating surface (joint between underside of bolt head and acrylic) for the sealant to bond. Most of this is covered in Casey's book.
be very careful to use a sealant, NOT an adhesive. An adhesive will make doing this down the road (either for you or for the next owner) extremely difficult. Besides, most adhesives, even if they also proport to be great sealants, are not as pliable. And you want the sealant to be pliable. Toward that end, read through Don Casey's book, "Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair". Everything Rob put in his post is in Casey's book, and then some with drawings and fairly detailed How-To instructions. I do respectfully disagree with Ross' post, provided that I have read it correctly. Countersinking your deck will weaken the gel coat, and bring the edge of the hole closer to the edge of the hardware. It will ultimately leak. No problem with countersinking the deck hardware or teak handrails (most of it already is). My preference would be to use a bolt with a flat surface mated to the flat surface of the deck/boat. By example, using a bolt to secure a new piece of acrylic window. Instead of counter sinking the acrylic, I used a flat headed bolt with a finish washer; it was neater and I had more mating surface (joint between underside of bolt head and acrylic) for the sealant to bond. Most of this is covered in Casey's book.
3M 101
I learned how to bed from the guys up at Hinckley. Back it the late 80's I was atteending college and spent a lot of time on Mount Desert Island. One of my fraternity brothers cousins worked at Hinckley so I also hung out with some of the finish guys from Hinckley. One day I was watching a guy install a deck fitting and he was very lightly countersinking the hole. He explained that this served two purposes. 1- it creates a smooth transition edge to prevent the gel coat surface from spider cracking. 2- It creates an o-ring like gasket around the bolt where it penetrates the deck. The other thing he showed me was that using this method you SHOULD tighten the fitting all the way and not let cure then re-tighten as many books tell you to do. The reasoning behind this is that by leting it cure and then re-tightening after it's cured you will invariably move not only the nut but also the bolt breaking the very seal you are trying to create. He also said to use smooth shouldered bolts not the ones threaded all the way to the top. The third main point is to use a NON adhesive sealant but not silicone. They were using 3M 101. I've been using 101 for over 15 years and have yet to have a leak countersinking and sealing using this method. I've owned 7 boats in fifteen years and have re-bedded every one. The only boat I have not re-bedded is my 7th a 2005 Catalina but I'm re-bedding it this spring. I don't trust the way Catalina does it from the factory & it's cheap insurance. About four years ago a friend and I got into a disagreement about bedding deck hardware. He used 5200 fast cure, no counter sink and the tighten after cure method. He always had leaks but still thought his method was fool proof. To prove my point I made a water proof plexiglass box out of 1/2 inch plexi. I then counter sunk the holes and installed an old stanchion base I had kicking around using 3M 101 and the tighten now method. The box sat outside near my shed and held water for three years. The first winter I even added the potable water antifreeze and it still held. I finally threw it away last summer still waterproof. My friend now beds using the method the Hinckley guy taught me. Use what ever mthod you want but I suggest trying the box of water as an experiment. I got the plexi from a local distributors scrap heap....... -R.C.
I learned how to bed from the guys up at Hinckley. Back it the late 80's I was atteending college and spent a lot of time on Mount Desert Island. One of my fraternity brothers cousins worked at Hinckley so I also hung out with some of the finish guys from Hinckley. One day I was watching a guy install a deck fitting and he was very lightly countersinking the hole. He explained that this served two purposes. 1- it creates a smooth transition edge to prevent the gel coat surface from spider cracking. 2- It creates an o-ring like gasket around the bolt where it penetrates the deck. The other thing he showed me was that using this method you SHOULD tighten the fitting all the way and not let cure then re-tighten as many books tell you to do. The reasoning behind this is that by leting it cure and then re-tightening after it's cured you will invariably move not only the nut but also the bolt breaking the very seal you are trying to create. He also said to use smooth shouldered bolts not the ones threaded all the way to the top. The third main point is to use a NON adhesive sealant but not silicone. They were using 3M 101. I've been using 101 for over 15 years and have yet to have a leak countersinking and sealing using this method. I've owned 7 boats in fifteen years and have re-bedded every one. The only boat I have not re-bedded is my 7th a 2005 Catalina but I'm re-bedding it this spring. I don't trust the way Catalina does it from the factory & it's cheap insurance. About four years ago a friend and I got into a disagreement about bedding deck hardware. He used 5200 fast cure, no counter sink and the tighten after cure method. He always had leaks but still thought his method was fool proof. To prove my point I made a water proof plexiglass box out of 1/2 inch plexi. I then counter sunk the holes and installed an old stanchion base I had kicking around using 3M 101 and the tighten now method. The box sat outside near my shed and held water for three years. The first winter I even added the potable water antifreeze and it still held. I finally threw it away last summer still waterproof. My friend now beds using the method the Hinckley guy taught me. Use what ever mthod you want but I suggest trying the box of water as an experiment. I got the plexi from a local distributors scrap heap....... -R.C.
...and I stand corrected
My comment was based on book knowledge, not time-tested experience as R.C. has. I would go with R.C.'s suggestions. Hell, I may even try it.
My comment was based on book knowledge, not time-tested experience as R.C. has. I would go with R.C.'s suggestions. Hell, I may even try it.
Good points
I use countersink and tighten it now on customer work. I can't trust customers to do the final torque without breaking the seal and customer's don't want to pay for a second service call. On my boat I try to wait 24-48 hours before putting final torque on the fasteners. I don't turn the screw or bolt, I tighten the nut. The seal remains intact. For stanchions, the mounting screws go up from the inside of the boat and the stanchion is held on with acorn nuts. The screws never move and the stanchion can be replaced without breaking the seal around the screws.
I use countersink and tighten it now on customer work. I can't trust customers to do the final torque without breaking the seal and customer's don't want to pay for a second service call. On my boat I try to wait 24-48 hours before putting final torque on the fasteners. I don't turn the screw or bolt, I tighten the nut. The seal remains intact. For stanchions, the mounting screws go up from the inside of the boat and the stanchion is held on with acorn nuts. The screws never move and the stanchion can be replaced without breaking the seal around the screws.
Filling a hole
Don Casey's book: Complete Sailboat Encyclopdia lists how to rebed hardware. Basically you drill out the mounting holes, oversized 1/8" then out a piece of tape on the bottom of the hole, to keep the epoxy from coming out, then wet the inside of the hole with epoxy resin (West Systems is the only one I use), then thicken up the resin with filler, I would recomend 404 thickning compound, then fill the hole and smooth it out when it kicks, then in a couple of days drill out the holes for your hardware. when you caulk it, let the caulk cure before tighting down your hardware, forms a great bond. IMHO.
Don Casey's book: Complete Sailboat Encyclopdia lists how to rebed hardware. Basically you drill out the mounting holes, oversized 1/8" then out a piece of tape on the bottom of the hole, to keep the epoxy from coming out, then wet the inside of the hole with epoxy resin (West Systems is the only one I use), then thicken up the resin with filler, I would recomend 404 thickning compound, then fill the hole and smooth it out when it kicks, then in a couple of days drill out the holes for your hardware. when you caulk it, let the caulk cure before tighting down your hardware, forms a great bond. IMHO.
Steel or wood to re-bed?
Not to re-hash an older post, but I'm getting ready to re-bed most of my deck hardware over the next few months to try and stop a few troublesome leaks. The "backing plate" below deck for all of my hardware is marine plywood, and some of it is in sad shape. Has anyone had luck using steel or aluminum plate? If so, did you use a bolt or tap the hole for threading? Thanks!
Not to re-hash an older post, but I'm getting ready to re-bed most of my deck hardware over the next few months to try and stop a few troublesome leaks. The "backing plate" below deck for all of my hardware is marine plywood, and some of it is in sad shape. Has anyone had luck using steel or aluminum plate? If so, did you use a bolt or tap the hole for threading? Thanks!
on my boat
most of the backing plates are aluminum,in my opinion they are too small,just barely large enough to catch all the screws on the stantion plates, and barely larger than anything else they are used on. seem sturdy enough, last summer someone cut an oak tree down that came down on the bow lifelines,and only one base cracked the deck, (aftmost one, think if I'd had the gate closed it would have been fine) even though the boat was nearly the only thing holding the tree out of the water. I think it's more a matter of what you have on hand, good plywood will be as strong in most cases, easier to work with, and can be made to look better if visible. Ken.
most of the backing plates are aluminum,in my opinion they are too small,just barely large enough to catch all the screws on the stantion plates, and barely larger than anything else they are used on. seem sturdy enough, last summer someone cut an oak tree down that came down on the bow lifelines,and only one base cracked the deck, (aftmost one, think if I'd had the gate closed it would have been fine) even though the boat was nearly the only thing holding the tree out of the water. I think it's more a matter of what you have on hand, good plywood will be as strong in most cases, easier to work with, and can be made to look better if visible. Ken.
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