Rebedding Deck & Cabin Hardware ?'s

[David S]

I have searched with several words on this subject. My port bunk mattress is recently getting wet and for some time back I sometimes have to pump out the cabin floor bilge. The cockpit drain hose may need replacing, I am considering installing a Becket Plate to get to that. I'll have someone hose the top of the boat and try to find the leak on the mattress .

What I would like to hear and see is pics of removing cabin top hand rails and window ports without destroying the cabin surface inside and out. The hand rail fasteners inside the cabin ceiling have thin plastic washers or covers that break easily, they will need to be ordered or replace with something else. The handrails have visible bunks.

I plan on using Maine Sails method of counter bore and marine butyl tape to rebed. I may have to order one new port frame or window, can these be ordered for my old 1979 O'day 22? . I would like comments, pics and sources on the above.

Thanks guys & gals, I love zeehags commentaries, David S

 

[Joe11688]

For Teak hand rails I would use 3-M 4200 Adhesive Caulking. Instead of removing the whole handrail, I would find out exactly which bolt on the hand rail is leaking and carefully remove the bung and bolt. You may be able to pry up on that section and add the caulking with a shaved Popsicle stick. This way, you only need to replace the one bung. I've done this to toe rails and hand rails.

If you have Plexiglas or any kind of plastic type port lights, I would use Dap Silicone Rubber Adhesive Caulking. I used this stuff to adhere a plastic lens on my forward hatch and it worked like a champ. I would use this stuff on any plastics including the Beckson Deck plate. You need to clean the area good with denatured alcohol. Don't use Acetone.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Sealants ...

For Teak hand rails I would use 3-M 4200 Adhesive Caulking. Instead of removing the whole handrail, I would find out exactly which bolt on the hand rail is leaking and carefully remove the bung and bolt. You may be able to pry up on that section and add the caulking with a shaved Popsicle stick. This way, you only need to replace the one bung. I've done this to toe rails and hand rails.

If you have Plexiglas or any kind of plastic type port lights, I would use Dap Silicone Rubber Adhesive Caulking. I used this stuff to adhere a plastic lens on my forward hatch and it worked like a champ. I would use this stuff on any plastics including the Beckson Deck plate. You need to clean the area good with denatured alcohol. Don't use Acetone.

------------------ // ----------------------

I would never use a silicone based sealant that may touch or interface with FRP.

There are many non silicone based sealants available.

I would recommend rereading your post and all the commentary thereon in this thread.

http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172

Never use any silicone based product on FRP.

And this subject has been discussed many times on this forum, have you searched the archives?

Ed K

 

[Merlin Clark]

Beckson ports, polycarbonate and acrylic manufacturers specify silicone for sealing their products.

 

[Ritdog]

I agree with the others on the sealant. If you are looking for those interior handrail plugs, and they are the same type that an Oday 25 has , and Rudy at D&R Marine doesn't have them, www.usedsailboatstuff.com in Scarborough , Maine DOES have them- he is half of new, cost-wise. I took that whole set off a 25 last Spring.

 

[Joe11688]

Beckson ports, polycarbonate and acrylic manufacturers specify silicone for sealing their products.

You're absolutely right. Silicone in itself acts more like a gasket according to Don Casey, but this Dap that I speak of is a Silicone Rubber Adhesive Sealant and it can stick like crazy if the surfaces are cleaned well.


Ahoy Ed!
Years ago when I removed my port lights and re-caulked them, I used a silicone based cauking and it has had no adverse effects on the plastic or the fiberglass. I would recommend it over Sikoflex or Dow Corning 795.
I used Dow Corning on my forward hatch and it's too messy to work with. I won't use it again.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Ahoy Captain Joe and dog

You're absolutely right. Silicone in itself acts more like a gasket according to Don Casey, but this Dap that I speak of is a Silicone Rubber Adhesive Sealant and it can stick like crazy if the surfaces are cleaned well.


Ahoy Ed!
Years ago when I removed my port lights and re-caulked them, I used a silicone based cauking and it has had no adverse effects on the plastic or the fiberglass. I would recommend it over Sikoflex or Dow Corning 795.
I used Dow Corning on my forward hatch and it's too messy to work with. I won't use it again.

------------------- // -------------------------

I am sure the first time that you
use a silicone based sealant it
will work. Problem is the second
time you need to caulk.

If you will go back some years to
prior threads on subject you will
find that silicone somehow chemically
merges or intertwines with FRP.
That is there is an intermingling at
contact surface. Silicone caulks
apparently do not do the same a
second time around.

You will find that this is known among
marinas that do FRP repair and
others like automotive repair shops.

How is the problem solved? You have
to sand the FRP surface down beyond
the intermingling to get a good grip.

Go find the old threads and cite them for
us.

Call in Maine Sail for his opinion.

Call in Captain Herring for his opinion.

Then ask somebody who has to deal
with customer complaints after using
silicone a second time and it leaks.

Ask Keith about silicone leaks in the
medical field.

Why not bring wife, dog and boat to
warm water?

Ed K
South Carolina, USA
"Even in the valley of the shadow of
death, two and two do not make six."~ Leo Tolstoy

 

[Joe11688]

Ed,
So what is the alternative? What do you recommend? Actually Ed, I didn't rough up the FRP surface when I installed my Beckson Deck Plate. I did rough up the plastic forward hatch frame and the lens though.
Joe

 

[Shoaldrafter]

What do you recommend

Ed,
So what is the alternative? What do you recommend? Actually Ed, I didn't rough up the FRP surface when I installed my Beckson Deck Plate. I did rough up the plastic forward hatch frame and the lens though.
Joe

I have no specific recommendation other
than not to use any silicone product with FRP.

Use it on your household plumbing and
around your wooden or metal windows, just
not on fiberglass sailboat.

Maine sail has been asked about Red Devil 0698,
but has not commented.

Ed K

 

[Maine Sail]

Guys,

There are certain products that require a silicone sealant be used. Beckson products are but one of them.

For acrylic or polycarbonate hatches, deadlights etc., Dow 795, GE SG 4000 or Sikaflex 295UV (with the special primer) are what should be used. There are VAST differences in silicone sealants yet ALL of them leave behind contamination that MUST be removed before re-bedding. This contamination can be very, very, very dificult to remove entirely and usually requires sanding.

Silicones for acrylic or polycarbonate hatches or ports etc. should always be structural silicone products used for glazing. Dow 795 or GE SG4000 are NOT the same as a tub & tile or general purpose silicone.

I do not recommend "butyl tube caulks" for anything marine other than maybe a quick temporary repair. I have tested a number of them. They are far to thin and lack the elasticity of a quality butyl tape. Also the "tube caulk butyls" have been banned in many states so you may not easily find them. They are used most often for masonry but are not suitable for a marine application.

The right tool for the job is always the best one. Sometimes that tool requires silicone, like it or not.. I personally detest silicone, due to the contamination it leaves behind, but I still use it where appropriate.

People always assume RV butyl tape and Bed-It Tape are the same or "close enough" just like they assume any silicone is the same, they are not. There are literally hundreds of formulations of silicone caulks, butyl tape and polyurethane sealants but each has its uses and they don't always translate well...

Bed-It Tape works very well for hand rails, heck ours have been bedded with a lesser quality butyl tape since 1979 and are still 100% bone dry. It makes them easily removable without destroying them in the future..

 

[Joe11688]

When I removed my forward hatch years ago to work on it, I used Dow Corning 795 for the caulking. I still don't like that stuff. This Dap worked great for adhering the Lexan lens to my Gray Marine hatch cover. I would use it again.

 

[centerline]

WTF!!! silicone will work as good the second time around just as good as it worked the first time around..... its dumbass's that dont do their prep work properly that have problems. or let me clarify that statement.... its people who dont know how to prep and clean properly that has trouble using silicone, then they want to blame the product! blaming the product for their ignorance is what makes them a dumbass. there are too many people that pass rumors on that have no first hand knowledge of what they are even talking about....

BUT.... silicone that is real old may have separated in the tube, and silicone that has frozen in the tube, or been overheated in the tube may NOT cure properly when applied, but good, new, freshly opened silicone used properly on a properly prepped surface will last for many, many years without failure...
there are definitely other sealers that can be applied to a dirty, unprepared with better results, but for bedding hardware with properly cleaned surfaces, silicone works absolutely great when snugly sandwiched between cleaned surfaces. it does NOT do well for any length of time when exposed to the elements.
this is more than an opinion. with a lifetime of using the stuff and learning where and how to use it best, it has proven itself to be the most "versatile" sealing product available and works very well when care is taken during the application process. but that doesnt mean it can be used EVERYWHERE....

sorry about the rant, but here is an excellent product that is getting a bad rap, and people are being steered away from using it because some folks dont know how to get the best performance from it.

 

[Maine Sail]

WTF!!! silicone will work as good the second time around just as good as it worked the first time around..... its dumbass's that dont do their prep work properly that have problems. or let me clarify that statement.... its people who dont know how to prep and clean properly that has trouble using silicone, then they want to blame the product! blaming the product for their ignorance is what makes them a dumbass. there are too many people that pass rumors on that have no first hand knowledge of what they are even talking about....

BUT.... silicone that is real old may have separated in the tube, and silicone that has frozen in the tube, or been overheated in the tube may NOT cure properly when applied, but good, new, freshly opened silicone used properly on a properly prepped surface will last for many, many years without failure...
there are definitely other sealers that can be applied to a dirty, unprepared with better results, but for bedding hardware with properly cleaned surfaces, silicone works absolutely great when snugly sandwiched between cleaned surfaces. it does NOT do well for any length of time when exposed to the elements.
this is more than an opinion. with a lifetime of using the stuff and learning where and how to use it best, it has proven itself to be the most "versatile" sealing product available and works very well when care is taken during the application process. but that doesnt mean it can be used EVERYWHERE....

sorry about the rant, but here is an excellent product that is getting a bad rap, and people are being steered away from using it because some folks dont know how to get the best performance from it.

So I guess I am just a "dumbass"... But please oh please enlighten us as to the magic elixir used for removing silicone from gelcoat or wood? I have tried just about every product on the planet including some products used in the autobody industry that actually EAT gelcoat and NONE of them suitably remove dried silicone. The only thing that I have found works is judicious sanding.

I recently had an Island Packet I worked on where the PO rebedded a fitting on the teak toe rail. The teak was so deeply contaminated that the level of sanding required to get varnish to stick & not fish eye nearly ruined a $1000.00+ teak toe rail. On boats where the gelcoat has worn thin I have seen folks sand clean through the gelcoat trying to rid the surface of contamination.

Working in the industry there is common frustration amongst just about every professional painter or fiberglass guy I know in regards to silicone...

Still it has a place but should be used carefully and prep is 500% critical..

Glad to be amongst your "dumbass" crowd because I am certainly not alone... Please do let us "dumbass' " know because I have 100's of others including very, very high end builders & yards who would love to know the magic way of dealing with silicone contamination of gelcoat. If you think I'm vocal about this very real issue you should talk to some of my friends who paint boats & do fiberglass work for a living, some of the best in the industry, and they will sugar coat it a LOT LESS than I do.......

Do a forum search for the story of my Kayaks...... The problem was so real with them that Current Designs the manufacturer ate over 6k in kayaks to remedy/warranty the situation.... But I guess they are just "dumbass' " too for not being able to repair the silicone contamination, that required two new boats to fix the problem.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Centerline

WTF!!! silicone will work as good the second time around just as good as it worked the first time around..... its dumbass's that dont do their prep work properly that have problems. or let me clarify that statement.... its people who dont know how to prep and clean properly that has trouble using silicone, then they want to blame the product! blaming the product for their ignorance is what makes them a dumbass. there are too many people that pass rumors on that have no first hand knowledge of what they are even talking about....

BUT.... silicone that is real old may have separated in the tube, and silicone that has frozen in the tube, or been overheated in the tube may NOT cure properly when applied, but good, new, freshly opened silicone used properly on a properly prepped surface will last for many, many years without failure...
there are definitely other sealers that can be applied to a dirty, unprepared with better results, but for bedding hardware with properly cleaned surfaces, silicone works absolutely great when snugly sandwiched between cleaned surfaces. it does NOT do well for any length of time when exposed to the elements.
this is more than an opinion. with a lifetime of using the stuff and learning where and how to use it best, it has proven itself to be the most "versatile" sealing product available and works very well when care is taken during the application process. but that doesnt mean it can be used EVERYWHERE....

sorry about the rant, but here is an excellent product that is getting a bad rap, and people are being steered away from using it because some folks dont know how to get the best performance from it.

------------------ // ---------------------------

It was said, "its people who dont know how to
prep and clean properly."

I would suggest you look at the length of time
two of the commentators recommending against
use of silicone on FRP unless no other option
have been messing around with boats

And not only messing around with their boats but
working with others.

Grasp the fact that is known that silicone and
the ingredients that make it a sealant do mingle
with the surface of either gel coat or just resins
that make the surface.

What I am referring to here is that a layer is
formed by the ingredients of the silicone sealant
and fiberglass layer that is called a chemical
compound. While it cannot be seen
by eyeballs, it is there. And new silicone sealant
does not repeat the process, that is, create
additional compound, rather has a separate
surface to old compound.

Many think that the silicone creates a gasket.
But certain compounds while acting somewhat
like a gasket, are not 'good' gaskets.

The cleaning you suggest requires removing
those surface contaminants. That is not done
by just current solvents or caulking removers,
rather requires removal of a layer of either the
gel coat or resins that has become a compound
with the sealant.

Yes that may be done with vigorous cleaning
with abrasives. Until that contaminated
surface is removed by what ever means new
silicone will not penetrate the old commingled
layer to provide mechanical or chemical bonding.

When there are alternatives it is best for average
boater not to use silicone. Those of us who
have around know that a few years from today
something will have to be repaired. This forum is
all about old sailboats, yes?

This forum is populated by sailors not professional
FRP repairers. I would say that they do the best
that they know how to. This forum gives added
perspective to keeping them sailing.

And dealing with that compound surface will make
repair more difficult next time. The flexing of
fiberglass sailboats insures that there will be a
next time.

Ed K

.

 

[Joe11688]

Myself, I don't like silicone. Any metal or wood which I attach to my boat is caulked with 3-M 4200 or BoatLife. Although I did use silicone on my port lights years ago. Nobody was around to tell me that it wasn't recommended. I didn't even own a PC back then. With that said, plastics present a problem and you can't use caulking which contain polysulfies. Rudy had told me about DC 795 and I bought a tube and used it on my forward hatch.
If Dap Silicone Rubber Adhesive Caulking is detrimental to Fiberglas as you say, then I stand corrected and will not recommend that anyone use it on plastics attached to FRP.
However, I used Dap on plastic to plastic and got great results on my forward hatch cover. Like I mentioned previously, the hatch is caulked with DC 795 so I guess I'm safe in that respect. In closing I just want to say that I stand corrected.

 

[Merlin Clark]

Joe,
I think we should throw all this crap in the bin and go back to "Dolfiinite"!
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4400

 

[Joe11688]

Joe,
I think we should throw all this crap in the bin and go back to "Dolfiinite"!
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4400

I've never used Dolfinite. I just asked them if it can be used on plastics and if not, what do they recommend. I'm sure it's great stuff but plastics present a real problem. I'm beside myself. I'm also bummed out about the news I heard this morning on TV. :cry:

 

[centerline]

ok..... specifically i was talking about BEDDING OR RE-BEDDING using silicone. I didnt have any intention of giving anyone the idea you could paint over the stuff, but if you do want to dissolve the residue and remove it, common "ether" AKA starting fluid will do the job nicely.
and it dosent GOO up, it just softens it and makes it lose its grip.

it has been said over and over on these forums that it shouldnt be used on fiberglass, and thats just BS.... but again, I have no intention of giving the idea that it is the best stuff to be used in every application. but it is very good stuff when used with properly cleaned surfaces.

I will stand firm with my statements because I can prove them without any doubt.

and although I do read what others have posted on these forums, it doesnt necessarily make me want to jump on to their bandwagon.
it seems that as soon as some "respected" individual denounces a product because he may have had a bad experience with it, the rumors start up about how terrible it is.... its not always the product, but the application of it..... sometimes what has been said against a product has been taken out of context or embellished upon, as its repeatedly told over and over and soon, rumor has it that the stuff is garbage and shouldnt be used. when it isnt always a true....

and I can clean old silicone off of fiberglass, clean it without abrasives, and get a new layer to stick to it just as tenaciously as the first time..... call it magic or whatever you want.
(some polishing wax also has silicone in it, and this too has to be cleaned off if you want the best success with using any type of sealer)


I have NEVER had good luck with the boatlife sealing products. I probably am not doing it right because others have success with it. but I dont blame the product or recommend someone not use it, just because it doesnt work for me.

of all the different types and brands of sealers, the 3M products are about the best I have used. my personal choice is the 4200 UV quick set..... and if it is being used in a location where it will be seen all the time, like on a rub rail, it will stay shiny and fresh looking years longer than any other product i know of.

I have not yet had the opportunity to use the butyl tape. i have no idea of its properties.... i am curious about it though.

and anyone, myself included, no matter how "old" they are or how many years they have in the "boat" building (or fixing) business, if they think they know it all and are unwilling to accept the fact that there could possibly be a technique that may improve their success rate with a product, well..... they may be a dumbass. but no one should include themselves in that category until they become so narrow minded as to think their way is the only possible way that it can be done

 

[centerline]

I've never used Dolfinite. I just asked them if it can be used on plastics and if not, what do they recommend. I'm sure it's great stuff but plastics present a real problem. I'm beside myself. I'm also bummed out about the news I heard this morning on TV. :cry:

my 30 year old boat has plastic windows (plexiglass or lexan) and its sealed to a plastic hull (fibergalss/gelcoat) and it has never been stored inside. it spent all of its life moored in the same location (but hauled at the end of every season due to lowered water levels)
so, for 30 years it has taken all the elements and the silicone that was used to install them is as tight and secure as ever... i would argue in favor of silicone.
and for the record, fish tanks, whether plexiglass, lexan or glass, in addition to being sealed by, they are structurally held together with silicone sealer..... but some types of plastic will not hold any type of sealer....

 

[Joe11688]

my 30 year old boat has plastic windows (plexiglass or lexan) and its sealed to a plastic hull (fibergalss/gelcoat) and it has never been stored inside. it spent all of its life moored in the same location (but hauled at the end of every season due to lowered water levels)
so, for 30 years it has taken all the elements and the silicone that was used to install them is as tight and secure as ever... i would argue in favor of silicone.
and for the record, fish tanks, whether plexiglass, lexan or glass, in addition to being sealed by, they are structurally held together with silicone sealer..... but some types of plastic will not hold any type of sealer....

I rebedded my port lights back in the 1990s with silicone and have had no problem with them since. I think that back then I was using silicone for just about everything.

For deck wood or metal hardware I lean heavily toward a caulking that will adhere like 3-M 4000 or 4200. My toe rails are so narrow that it doesn't take much to have them leak where they screw into the deck. Screws just aren't enough. I want these rails adhered as well as screwed in place. If someone hits them with their foot, I don't want them to move. These toe rails sit on narrow raises molded fberglas strips and I can't go with a wider toe rail.