Kyle mentioned Robin Lee Grahams Dove a Lapworth 24. I looked it up and compared it to my Pearson 323 using the sailcalculator. By all the numbers my Pearson 323 is more seaworthy than Dove. It is a joke to compare a Lapworth 24 to a Macgregor 26 but for real how would we rate a Lapworth 24 today??? And since my Pearson 323 is more seaworth (by the numbers) would a prudent person sail my Pearson across the Atlantic?? I am not familiar with the Lapworth 24 except for the little I've read and the sailcalculator. Is there some construction methods etc that would make the Lapworth superior for bluewater??? Would you send your son to sea in a Lapworth 24 and why???
Real Question on Cruising(as opposed to Kyle's )
- Thread starter MoonSailer
- Start date
- Status
a "prudent person" means diff things to diff peopl
At the time he did this, the kid was already a seasoned offshore sailor having travelled most of the Pacific. Also, he and his father (mostly the latter I imagine) put $8000 in upgrades on the boat to outfit it properly for offshore travel. For only these two reasons, a comparison with your boat and child may be invalid - your call. As far as putting any child up to this, I can almost understand youthful arrogance but have a hard time imagining any parent being comfortable with it regardless of experience.
At the time he did this, the kid was already a seasoned offshore sailor having travelled most of the Pacific. Also, he and his father (mostly the latter I imagine) put $8000 in upgrades on the boat to outfit it properly for offshore travel. For only these two reasons, a comparison with your boat and child may be invalid - your call. As far as putting any child up to this, I can almost understand youthful arrogance but have a hard time imagining any parent being comfortable with it regardless of experience.
With the improvement in navigation and
communication today we tend to put a lot of emphasis on speed. In the days of Robin Graham and Tanya Abiei ( Maiden Voyage) the first concern was the ability of the boat to survive and be able to bring you back. Both of those individuals received considerable support from family and others. If you read Donna Lange's logs you learn that her Southern Cross also needed modifications and up grades to enable her to cross oceans. She made her voyage and finished with less than five years of sailing experience. Donna receive enormous amounts of help along the way in terms of repairs in port,and communications and navigation equipment.
communication today we tend to put a lot of emphasis on speed. In the days of Robin Graham and Tanya Abiei ( Maiden Voyage) the first concern was the ability of the boat to survive and be able to bring you back. Both of those individuals received considerable support from family and others. If you read Donna Lange's logs you learn that her Southern Cross also needed modifications and up grades to enable her to cross oceans. She made her voyage and finished with less than five years of sailing experience. Donna receive enormous amounts of help along the way in terms of repairs in port,and communications and navigation equipment.
Robin Lee Graham..
Robin Lee Graham Heavily modified "Little Dove" the Lapworth 24 before and during the voyage but the boat still did not last an entire circumnavigation. National Geographic stepped in and replaced his boat with an Allied Ludders 33 so he could finish the voyage! I have no doubt that a well prepared, tweaked and modified 323 could circumnavigate. Pearson's are well built boats and while certainly not the most heavily constructed boat's in the world, with the right skipper, gumption and knowledge they are certainly capable. As for sending you son off in a Lapworth I'd say no. The Lapworth 24 did not make it, even heavily modified, so we now have case precedent t say why not to take a Lapworth 24. I'd sen my son off in a well found vessel only after he had the kind of experience Robin Graham had before leaving...
Robin Lee Graham Heavily modified "Little Dove" the Lapworth 24 before and during the voyage but the boat still did not last an entire circumnavigation. National Geographic stepped in and replaced his boat with an Allied Ludders 33 so he could finish the voyage! I have no doubt that a well prepared, tweaked and modified 323 could circumnavigate. Pearson's are well built boats and while certainly not the most heavily constructed boat's in the world, with the right skipper, gumption and knowledge they are certainly capable. As for sending you son off in a Lapworth I'd say no. The Lapworth 24 did not make it, even heavily modified, so we now have case precedent t say why not to take a Lapworth 24. I'd sen my son off in a well found vessel only after he had the kind of experience Robin Graham had before leaving...
Parents in the future may wander whether it
would be safe to send their sons out on an Island Packet 40'. It seems people have always made do with what was available during their time. $8,000 was serious money back then so the improvements to the boat must have been substantial. The boat was intended to circumnavigate in a number of legs and I bet a thorough survey was performed after each one. The boat did not flounder at sea it was determined after one of these surveys that the ability to complete the next one was uncertain at best. If I recall correctly part of the reason why Robyn Lee changed boats was because he was tired, tired of spending time in such a confined space. He only agreed to complete the trip after his father went to see him and stressed the debt of gratitude owed to the various supporters and he accepeted I believe with the caveat that he wanted a bigger boat. I'm sure National Geogrphic would have paid to completely restore the original boat if he would have agreed to complete the circumnavigation in it. Nevertheless at the time and still today it was a terrific accomplishment. He left a boy and returned a man.
would be safe to send their sons out on an Island Packet 40'. It seems people have always made do with what was available during their time. $8,000 was serious money back then so the improvements to the boat must have been substantial. The boat was intended to circumnavigate in a number of legs and I bet a thorough survey was performed after each one. The boat did not flounder at sea it was determined after one of these surveys that the ability to complete the next one was uncertain at best. If I recall correctly part of the reason why Robyn Lee changed boats was because he was tired, tired of spending time in such a confined space. He only agreed to complete the trip after his father went to see him and stressed the debt of gratitude owed to the various supporters and he accepeted I believe with the caveat that he wanted a bigger boat. I'm sure National Geogrphic would have paid to completely restore the original boat if he would have agreed to complete the circumnavigation in it. Nevertheless at the time and still today it was a terrific accomplishment. He left a boy and returned a man.
I am not sure that we have the mind set
any more to venture into the unknown. We have become too cautious and fearful and too dependent on others to rescue us if we fall. Parents are teaching their kids to avoid rather than deal with problems and situations that may involve a bit of danger. I know parents that won't allow their kids into the woods because of the insects that carry disease. Kids aren't permitted a pocket knife because some fool thinks that if kids have something sharp they will be inclined to stick it into another person. How can you expect to raise a child that will sail across the lake if you won't teach the kid to cross the road or climb a tree.
any more to venture into the unknown. We have become too cautious and fearful and too dependent on others to rescue us if we fall. Parents are teaching their kids to avoid rather than deal with problems and situations that may involve a bit of danger. I know parents that won't allow their kids into the woods because of the insects that carry disease. Kids aren't permitted a pocket knife because some fool thinks that if kids have something sharp they will be inclined to stick it into another person. How can you expect to raise a child that will sail across the lake if you won't teach the kid to cross the road or climb a tree.
My 2 cents
I just spent an hour looking up the pearson 323 on the internet , so I'm not claiming to know a lot about it. It seems to be a very good boat. I've only sailed across the Med, the Atlantic and the Carribean once, and I was fairly new to sailing. In my opinion for what it is worth I would not hesitate to go offshore in this boat, but with some modifications. Self steering. baby stay,suitable electronics, and possibly 2 foot shorter mast. Why (Knot)? Land is only 5 miles away. Straight down.
I just spent an hour looking up the pearson 323 on the internet , so I'm not claiming to know a lot about it. It seems to be a very good boat. I've only sailed across the Med, the Atlantic and the Carribean once, and I was fairly new to sailing. In my opinion for what it is worth I would not hesitate to go offshore in this boat, but with some modifications. Self steering. baby stay,suitable electronics, and possibly 2 foot shorter mast. Why (Knot)? Land is only 5 miles away. Straight down.
It is a cyclic thing
The cycle of Danial Boon was a man, a real man to my kid is a puss and back is a slow one but one that has been repeated over and over. The last time we saw this was Rome, specifically during the fall of it. Then the "government" went from being the worlds most powerful to not being able to protect even the city of Rome and they HAD to fend for ourselves. Now we have the government protecting us again and can a fall be far away? If you look at the world situation there are certainly groups gunning for the spot that we now enjoy. AND THERE AIN'T A THING WE CAN DO TO STOP IT. which is one reason why I own a boat.
The cycle of Danial Boon was a man, a real man to my kid is a puss and back is a slow one but one that has been repeated over and over. The last time we saw this was Rome, specifically during the fall of it. Then the "government" went from being the worlds most powerful to not being able to protect even the city of Rome and they HAD to fend for ourselves. Now we have the government protecting us again and can a fall be far away? If you look at the world situation there are certainly groups gunning for the spot that we now enjoy. AND THERE AIN'T A THING WE CAN DO TO STOP IT. which is one reason why I own a boat.
Real Versus percieved danger
We are used to the carnageon the streets and are numb to the number of teenagers that die in stupid accidents each year. Graham was probably safer out in the ocean than I was riding my motorcycle. I took a lot of stupid risks but was lucky. Two of my son's 3 best friends are dead in trafic accidents before the were 22 years old. One just turned 18. The dangers of the sea are strange to us and seem greater butrealistically I am probaly safer sailing than almost any other activity that I do. I really enjoyed Grahm's story and read it in National geographic. yes I was one of the weird ones who read NG in High School. It was inspirational reading especially to someone who had never seen the insides a sailboat!!!! The romance of sailing infected me long before I bought a sailboat and learned to love actually sailing. Long before I actually knew what a Sloop was I knew that I wanted one. This was from reading the Hardy boys. That may be the generational difference. The Hardy boys did real stuff that any boy might be able to do. No supernatural powers required!!! Thor Hyderdal sp did wild stuff but stuff that I could do(possibly). Even then we had the Apolo moon mission which was a real adventure. As opposed to the next generation having "star Wars" make believe. Fantasy is great but real life possible fantasy is better than supernatural fantasy IMHO. The early James Bond did fantastic stuff but it was mostly possible. The fantastic four is a little too much. Daniel Boone was reality based. He did stuff that was possible and exciting. Captain Kirk was pure fantasy. John Wayne was another hero that did reality based fantasy..stuff that real people might possibly do. EvenClint Eastwoods stuff was possible. Arnold Swarzenegar sp played mostly supernatural characters. I don't know what I'll do with my Pearson 323. With some work it could be made more seaworthy but it would probably be more cost effective to just buy a more seaworthy boat. Right now we would like to sail it around the east coast from Mobile Alabama to Chesapeake bay. Maybe on up to Boston,Ma to visit my daughter. Then over to the Bahamas. The single best thing about the boat is that it is paid for. I read "Sensible Cruising" and it made an impression on me. My ideal situation would be to have a home and spend about 6 months/year cruising and 6 months on land. Maybe that broken into 3 months in the spring and 3 months in the fall. The other thought is to buy a larger boat and live aboard full time. The P323 is OK for plan A but too small for plan B. Plan C is a dream and probably won't happen..that is to buy a stout blue water boat and sail around the earth. Not so much circumnavigate as to voyage to interesting places. My wife doesn't like the ideal of blue water cruising.
We are used to the carnageon the streets and are numb to the number of teenagers that die in stupid accidents each year. Graham was probably safer out in the ocean than I was riding my motorcycle. I took a lot of stupid risks but was lucky. Two of my son's 3 best friends are dead in trafic accidents before the were 22 years old. One just turned 18. The dangers of the sea are strange to us and seem greater butrealistically I am probaly safer sailing than almost any other activity that I do. I really enjoyed Grahm's story and read it in National geographic. yes I was one of the weird ones who read NG in High School. It was inspirational reading especially to someone who had never seen the insides a sailboat!!!! The romance of sailing infected me long before I bought a sailboat and learned to love actually sailing. Long before I actually knew what a Sloop was I knew that I wanted one. This was from reading the Hardy boys. That may be the generational difference. The Hardy boys did real stuff that any boy might be able to do. No supernatural powers required!!! Thor Hyderdal sp did wild stuff but stuff that I could do(possibly). Even then we had the Apolo moon mission which was a real adventure. As opposed to the next generation having "star Wars" make believe. Fantasy is great but real life possible fantasy is better than supernatural fantasy IMHO. The early James Bond did fantastic stuff but it was mostly possible. The fantastic four is a little too much. Daniel Boone was reality based. He did stuff that was possible and exciting. Captain Kirk was pure fantasy. John Wayne was another hero that did reality based fantasy..stuff that real people might possibly do. EvenClint Eastwoods stuff was possible. Arnold Swarzenegar sp played mostly supernatural characters. I don't know what I'll do with my Pearson 323. With some work it could be made more seaworthy but it would probably be more cost effective to just buy a more seaworthy boat. Right now we would like to sail it around the east coast from Mobile Alabama to Chesapeake bay. Maybe on up to Boston,Ma to visit my daughter. Then over to the Bahamas. The single best thing about the boat is that it is paid for. I read "Sensible Cruising" and it made an impression on me. My ideal situation would be to have a home and spend about 6 months/year cruising and 6 months on land. Maybe that broken into 3 months in the spring and 3 months in the fall. The other thought is to buy a larger boat and live aboard full time. The P323 is OK for plan A but too small for plan B. Plan C is a dream and probably won't happen..that is to buy a stout blue water boat and sail around the earth. Not so much circumnavigate as to voyage to interesting places. My wife doesn't like the ideal of blue water cruising.
Moon sailor, Following your line have you
ever watched people stand on a street corner while 2 ton cars and trucks whiz by at 30-50 MPH and they don't even blink but when they encounter a snake at ten feet they cringe. Every day I drive my car at 88 feet per second within about six feet of another car coming towards me at the same speed and show no fear. But sailing between two bridge piers fifty feet apart at 5 knots is the cause for a little fear. But I have been driving for 55 years and sailing for only fifteen. I think the old cliche about pilots also applies here "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but old, bold pilots are rare."
ever watched people stand on a street corner while 2 ton cars and trucks whiz by at 30-50 MPH and they don't even blink but when they encounter a snake at ten feet they cringe. Every day I drive my car at 88 feet per second within about six feet of another car coming towards me at the same speed and show no fear. But sailing between two bridge piers fifty feet apart at 5 knots is the cause for a little fear. But I have been driving for 55 years and sailing for only fifteen. I think the old cliche about pilots also applies here "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but old, bold pilots are rare."
Experience Counts..a lot
Experience can make one reasonably safe doing a dangerous thing. I rode my last two Goldwing motorcycles over 100,000 miles with no accidents. Knock on wood I haven't had a car wreck in about 10 years. Commuting 40 miles/day to work in heavy traffic I've seen enough wrecks to know that a lot is just luck. I'm an amature herpetologist so seeing a snake gets me excited but not like most people. I was getting a little bold when I was flying and had a few near misses. Again experience counts. I flew a lot of touch and go landings until there was nothing special about takeing off and landing. When (if) we take the big cruise we will probably take it slow to gain more experience. Going into a strange anchorage or through a strange pass is always an event. The charts never seem to provide all of the needed information.Even cruising guides and the coast pilot leave something to be learned. Hopefully after a year of cruising entering a strange pass or anchorage will seem normal. But right now we've only experienced a few. Panama City ,Pensacola, stJoe and Mobile bay are the only passes that we've ran. Mobile bay is easily the most difficult with a lot of shoaling and ship traffic.
Experience can make one reasonably safe doing a dangerous thing. I rode my last two Goldwing motorcycles over 100,000 miles with no accidents. Knock on wood I haven't had a car wreck in about 10 years. Commuting 40 miles/day to work in heavy traffic I've seen enough wrecks to know that a lot is just luck. I'm an amature herpetologist so seeing a snake gets me excited but not like most people. I was getting a little bold when I was flying and had a few near misses. Again experience counts. I flew a lot of touch and go landings until there was nothing special about takeing off and landing. When (if) we take the big cruise we will probably take it slow to gain more experience. Going into a strange anchorage or through a strange pass is always an event. The charts never seem to provide all of the needed information.Even cruising guides and the coast pilot leave something to be learned. Hopefully after a year of cruising entering a strange pass or anchorage will seem normal. But right now we've only experienced a few. Panama City ,Pensacola, stJoe and Mobile bay are the only passes that we've ran. Mobile bay is easily the most difficult with a lot of shoaling and ship traffic.
Unfortunately experience is what’s left
MoonSailer said, “Experience can make one reasonably safe doing a dangerous thing.” Unfortunately experience is what’s leftover after the adventure is done. You never have it when you start out but you acquire it after you get good at something. I wish there was a way to get experience when it comes to your first ocean crossing without having to get it all on the first crossing. But part of what makes the first trip or the first of any endeavor special is the fact it is somewhat unknown and that’s the challenge or if you prefer the adventure in it. All the best, Robert Gainer
MoonSailer said, “Experience can make one reasonably safe doing a dangerous thing.” Unfortunately experience is what’s leftover after the adventure is done. You never have it when you start out but you acquire it after you get good at something. I wish there was a way to get experience when it comes to your first ocean crossing without having to get it all on the first crossing. But part of what makes the first trip or the first of any endeavor special is the fact it is somewhat unknown and that’s the challenge or if you prefer the adventure in it. All the best, Robert Gainer
A man has got to know his limitations!!!!
The ideal is to expand your limits without accident. But the only way to expand your limits is to push up next to them. I deliberately go out sailing knowing that the conditions are rough. This gives me enhanced skills. I do this with any new activity. When snow skiing I didn't start on advanced slopes but gradually worked my way towards advanced slopes. Flying a plane I started out only flying in very calm conditions. But gradually went up in more turbulant conditions to improve my ability. Same with SCUBA diving. It took some time to be comfortable diving at night or in strong currents. I've been lucky getting experience with no bad accidents or misadventures. But I also have been wise in knowing my limitations and more importantly expanding my limits in a systematic manner. Before heading off shore I will know how my boat my crew and most importantly myself will respond in difficult situations. I strongly recommend to everyone considering an offshore trip that they go out in rough conditions near rescue before heading to the deep blue. If you can't handle 20Kts gusting to 30 in the bay or lake you probably can't handle those conditions offshore. If you are comfortable in the bay in those conditions go outside for a daysail. It is far better to find out that your wife turns green and pukes uncontrollably a mile from the jetty that to make this discovery 36 hours from shelter. Or worse finding out that the boat pounds horribly and is very hard to manage.
The ideal is to expand your limits without accident. But the only way to expand your limits is to push up next to them. I deliberately go out sailing knowing that the conditions are rough. This gives me enhanced skills. I do this with any new activity. When snow skiing I didn't start on advanced slopes but gradually worked my way towards advanced slopes. Flying a plane I started out only flying in very calm conditions. But gradually went up in more turbulant conditions to improve my ability. Same with SCUBA diving. It took some time to be comfortable diving at night or in strong currents. I've been lucky getting experience with no bad accidents or misadventures. But I also have been wise in knowing my limitations and more importantly expanding my limits in a systematic manner. Before heading off shore I will know how my boat my crew and most importantly myself will respond in difficult situations. I strongly recommend to everyone considering an offshore trip that they go out in rough conditions near rescue before heading to the deep blue. If you can't handle 20Kts gusting to 30 in the bay or lake you probably can't handle those conditions offshore. If you are comfortable in the bay in those conditions go outside for a daysail. It is far better to find out that your wife turns green and pukes uncontrollably a mile from the jetty that to make this discovery 36 hours from shelter. Or worse finding out that the boat pounds horribly and is very hard to manage.
Moonsailor, in a very few words what you do
is called risk management. The risk of falling off the curb is the same as the risk of falling off a 6 inch beam a hundred feet above the ground, only the consequencies are changed. If you improve your skills you manage your risk .
is called risk management. The risk of falling off the curb is the same as the risk of falling off a 6 inch beam a hundred feet above the ground, only the consequencies are changed. If you improve your skills you manage your risk .
Risk
You hear of so many incidents where experienced and seasoned sailors have been lost at sea. Perhaps it was a rogue wave, de-masting, collision or going to the brink of insanity like Robin Lee Graham when he set his vessel on fire and almost bought the farm in the duldrums. The ocean is vast and often unforgiving and despite the amount of experience their are situaitons that might be beyond your control. I am convinced that it takes a large amount of scrot to set sail across an ocean no matter what the vessel. Interesting that that certain type's of individual's who may have that quality have popped their heads up here. From herptologists to Goldwing cross country cruisers, it does take a special individual to get past the starting line and not look back. For me, each saturday I get in my 1973 Porsche 911T and challenge myself on the twisties. Getting that heartrate up and looking fear in the face is interesting to cope with, so could this really be the essence of life? Would I ever take a sailboat across an ocean alone? Probably not, but for now I will stick with the lake. For those of you who have or are going to commit to it, your in a special class of your own and you have my admiration. Bob Breezin II on Lake Lanier, GA
You hear of so many incidents where experienced and seasoned sailors have been lost at sea. Perhaps it was a rogue wave, de-masting, collision or going to the brink of insanity like Robin Lee Graham when he set his vessel on fire and almost bought the farm in the duldrums. The ocean is vast and often unforgiving and despite the amount of experience their are situaitons that might be beyond your control. I am convinced that it takes a large amount of scrot to set sail across an ocean no matter what the vessel. Interesting that that certain type's of individual's who may have that quality have popped their heads up here. From herptologists to Goldwing cross country cruisers, it does take a special individual to get past the starting line and not look back. For me, each saturday I get in my 1973 Porsche 911T and challenge myself on the twisties. Getting that heartrate up and looking fear in the face is interesting to cope with, so could this really be the essence of life? Would I ever take a sailboat across an ocean alone? Probably not, but for now I will stick with the lake. For those of you who have or are going to commit to it, your in a special class of your own and you have my admiration. Bob Breezin II on Lake Lanier, GA
Bob, In years past the word was that a sailor
had "gone missing" on a passage from anywhere to somewhere. Now they have better communications and mariners aren't out of contact with the world for months at a time. Not all of the hazards of passage making come from the sea. A bad fall can cripple you, bad food can make you so weak as to not be able to recover. Infections of great variety can be life threatening at sea that would be of little consequence on shore. I don't think that sailing across an ocean alone would please me but sailing for a few days at a time to get to a new place has a pull on me. Perhaps someday when we feel that we can take the time we will make some longer passages but for now a week or so on the bay will keep me satisfied.
had "gone missing" on a passage from anywhere to somewhere. Now they have better communications and mariners aren't out of contact with the world for months at a time. Not all of the hazards of passage making come from the sea. A bad fall can cripple you, bad food can make you so weak as to not be able to recover. Infections of great variety can be life threatening at sea that would be of little consequence on shore. I don't think that sailing across an ocean alone would please me but sailing for a few days at a time to get to a new place has a pull on me. Perhaps someday when we feel that we can take the time we will make some longer passages but for now a week or so on the bay will keep me satisfied.
- Status