I need some advice regarding an upcoming raft-up. I have a Beneteau 310 and intend to raft up with two other boats (a 28' Pearson and a 28' Hunter). As the largest boat, I figure we will set the anchor and have the others come along on either side. I have a 15-16 lb. danforth anchor, with 10 feet of chain and the remaining rode is line. The bottom type is mud and grass. The anchor and rode has been sufficient for our boat when anchored alone, but I am concerned that the anchor is not big enough for the three boats. During previous raft-ups someone else (usually bigger and with a larger anchor and more chain) set the hook and we simply came along side. Should I get a bigger anchor or set another anchor from one of the other boats?
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ANCHOR IT
Point the bow into the prevailing wind. The two outer boats each set a bow hook, angled slightly away from each other. The center boat sets a stern hook. Boats should be moored together with stern, bow and spring lines, and be well fendered. If the water is choppy at all,or there are heavy power boat wakes, make sure the rigs are NOT in line with each other so as to avoid contact. A 16# Danforth is a little light for an overnight hook for a 31 foot boat, and you should have at a minimum 15 feet of chain, (1/2 your boat length) but with two hooks out, barring any high winds, you should be OK, but, ATS, your results may vary....
Point the bow into the prevailing wind. The two outer boats each set a bow hook, angled slightly away from each other. The center boat sets a stern hook. Boats should be moored together with stern, bow and spring lines, and be well fendered. If the water is choppy at all,or there are heavy power boat wakes, make sure the rigs are NOT in line with each other so as to avoid contact. A 16# Danforth is a little light for an overnight hook for a 31 foot boat, and you should have at a minimum 15 feet of chain, (1/2 your boat length) but with two hooks out, barring any high winds, you should be OK, but, ATS, your results may vary....
Do NOT Buy a Bigger Anchor
When the other boats are rafted, have at least one of the them drop their own anchors at 45 degrees to port or stbd (using their dinghy to take it out). The rodes may end up with a twist if you are in a tidal situation, but that can be dealt with separately as long as you only pull up one anchor at a time. If you expect a calm night, then one anchor should be OK. Just check occasionally to ensure that it's holding. Make sure that the other boats will be ready to break away should problems occur. I have done this many times with one anchor and have been OK. My boat is a L37 w/ a 33# Bruce. When you are rafted, as the other poster indicated, make sure that the spreaders DO NOT line up so that they wount hit one another - Just in case that you are in some waves or wakes.
When the other boats are rafted, have at least one of the them drop their own anchors at 45 degrees to port or stbd (using their dinghy to take it out). The rodes may end up with a twist if you are in a tidal situation, but that can be dealt with separately as long as you only pull up one anchor at a time. If you expect a calm night, then one anchor should be OK. Just check occasionally to ensure that it's holding. Make sure that the other boats will be ready to break away should problems occur. I have done this many times with one anchor and have been OK. My boat is a L37 w/ a 33# Bruce. When you are rafted, as the other poster indicated, make sure that the spreaders DO NOT line up so that they wount hit one another - Just in case that you are in some waves or wakes.
more chain
If you had 50-80 of chain I would be more comfortable. It really depends on the depth of water and scope you use. 10 feet of chain is not much. Tangling rodes is a real concern and can be a huge mess, but taking one out at 45 degrees by dinghy is your best chance of not tangling. You might consider a 50' chunk of 3/8 chain that you can temporarily shackle to your rig.
If you had 50-80 of chain I would be more comfortable. It really depends on the depth of water and scope you use. 10 feet of chain is not much. Tangling rodes is a real concern and can be a huge mess, but taking one out at 45 degrees by dinghy is your best chance of not tangling. You might consider a 50' chunk of 3/8 chain that you can temporarily shackle to your rig.
Rafting
Seems like a small anchor for a boat that size. Chapman's 64th Edition says rafting up should be done with only the center boat setting an anchor.
Seems like a small anchor for a boat that size. Chapman's 64th Edition says rafting up should be done with only the center boat setting an anchor.
From my myopic perspective....
a 15 lb Danforth and 10 ft of chain is hardly enough just for your own boat, certainly not to be the anchor boat in a 3-boat raft. What you have now is about right for your own lunch hook, as I wouldn't want to be on your boat at anchor in a serious blow with the minimal ground tackle you currently have. Get a serious anchor and a serious amount of chain. Buy them at Bacons as they have lots of CQRs and similar used anchors at good prices. I think you already know you don't have the right set up and just want confirmation. Keep what you have as a secondary spare for light work and weather. From my point of view, don't ever get into a raft with a stern hook. And when others rafted up to you also have anchors out, be prepared to spend most of the next day sorting out anchor rodes that have wrapped around each other. A 3-boat raft isn't big enough (particularly with a couple of 28-footers) to require more than the central boat (yours) setting the right size anchor/rode.
a 15 lb Danforth and 10 ft of chain is hardly enough just for your own boat, certainly not to be the anchor boat in a 3-boat raft. What you have now is about right for your own lunch hook, as I wouldn't want to be on your boat at anchor in a serious blow with the minimal ground tackle you currently have. Get a serious anchor and a serious amount of chain. Buy them at Bacons as they have lots of CQRs and similar used anchors at good prices. I think you already know you don't have the right set up and just want confirmation. Keep what you have as a secondary spare for light work and weather. From my point of view, don't ever get into a raft with a stern hook. And when others rafted up to you also have anchors out, be prepared to spend most of the next day sorting out anchor rodes that have wrapped around each other. A 3-boat raft isn't big enough (particularly with a couple of 28-footers) to require more than the central boat (yours) setting the right size anchor/rode.
We raft with 3 to 12+ boats about every weekend..
The first boat selects the spot and drops a bow anchor with at least a 5:1 scope...and backs down hard to assure good set. We have a Tartan 37 with a 45 lb plow that likes to set the base if he's available. However, most anyone else can and will do it. Boats then come in alternately set bow and stern anchors. A few will swim or dingy out anchors, but most will set stern anchors as the come in or go past and drop bow anchors and back into the raftup. We pay attention to where other achors are and rarely have achors crossed...I can only recall one time in the last 5 years...and that was when an anchor was rowed out. With 3 boats, we usually set two bow and one stern. Good luck. Mark
The first boat selects the spot and drops a bow anchor with at least a 5:1 scope...and backs down hard to assure good set. We have a Tartan 37 with a 45 lb plow that likes to set the base if he's available. However, most anyone else can and will do it. Boats then come in alternately set bow and stern anchors. A few will swim or dingy out anchors, but most will set stern anchors as the come in or go past and drop bow anchors and back into the raftup. We pay attention to where other achors are and rarely have achors crossed...I can only recall one time in the last 5 years...and that was when an anchor was rowed out. With 3 boats, we usually set two bow and one stern. Good luck. Mark
Pete's On the Money
Been there and done that, Lunch or Din-din Only. I've been through two storms this year at night while rafting. The first one in Georgetown SC, 22 lb Bruce with 50' of chain, 11' to 15' of water, my 33.5 and my pals 30' Catalina. 30 knots of blow and we pulled the Bruce. Cranked up, pulled forward and dropped 2 anchors a Danforth and my Bruce. The Bruce got a light hook and the Danforth pulled before it was set. Gusts to 30+ knots (along with lightening and rain) Started slidding back into a 80' Steel hull boat and decided to crank the Yanmar to hold position. This was the only time in my life I thought I was going to start Chumming while on the hook. Told my wife, "We Ain't Doin' That NO MORE". Ended up rafting again overnight and went throught another storm. Being in the dark trying to decide if your slidding is Not Fun. The next morning on deck and my pal said "Captain We Have a Problem", my anchor rode was wrapped around both keels. Ended up backing around 360 degrees+ to unwrap the rode. (My Bruce was in the mud so deep I almost couldn't pull it up after this ordeal.) My opinion on rafting for more than to just eat? No Can Do unless it's a Freakin' Dock. Rafting 3 botes on on itty bitty anchor? Forget it. I don't drink and don't plan on starting! Bank on "What if" and stick to it... 'Cause "What if" will happen sooner than you think! Mike
Been there and done that, Lunch or Din-din Only. I've been through two storms this year at night while rafting. The first one in Georgetown SC, 22 lb Bruce with 50' of chain, 11' to 15' of water, my 33.5 and my pals 30' Catalina. 30 knots of blow and we pulled the Bruce. Cranked up, pulled forward and dropped 2 anchors a Danforth and my Bruce. The Bruce got a light hook and the Danforth pulled before it was set. Gusts to 30+ knots (along with lightening and rain) Started slidding back into a 80' Steel hull boat and decided to crank the Yanmar to hold position. This was the only time in my life I thought I was going to start Chumming while on the hook. Told my wife, "We Ain't Doin' That NO MORE". Ended up rafting again overnight and went throught another storm. Being in the dark trying to decide if your slidding is Not Fun. The next morning on deck and my pal said "Captain We Have a Problem", my anchor rode was wrapped around both keels. Ended up backing around 360 degrees+ to unwrap the rode. (My Bruce was in the mud so deep I almost couldn't pull it up after this ordeal.) My opinion on rafting for more than to just eat? No Can Do unless it's a Freakin' Dock. Rafting 3 botes on on itty bitty anchor? Forget it. I don't drink and don't plan on starting! Bank on "What if" and stick to it... 'Cause "What if" will happen sooner than you think! Mike
'Cause "What if" will happen sooner than you think
Yep...a year from last memorial day weekend there were about 4 powerboats rafted together for the night. At 3am when all the drunks were passed out, a 50+ knot storm blew in from nowhere and all 4 powerboats ended up on the rocks. SeaTow made a killing that night as well as the boatyards. Even if you put your own anchor out while rafting up, you are still at risk. Your partner may not have his set right and you may have both boats on your anchor in a blow and that's not going to hold. So raft up, party and have a good time but before you pass out, go anchor off by yourself someplace and get it set right. As for determining if your moving at night...easy...just look at your lat and long numbers. Get a feel for how they change when your not dragging (they will change because of the swing) so when you look at it in the night, it will be easy to tell. Of course, you can also set your anchor alarms...but that only tells you if you have ALREADY dragged X number of feet. If you have a handheld, you don't even have to get out of the birth to see if your anchor is ok. When anchoring, I sleep with my handled GPS in my hand.
Yep...a year from last memorial day weekend there were about 4 powerboats rafted together for the night. At 3am when all the drunks were passed out, a 50+ knot storm blew in from nowhere and all 4 powerboats ended up on the rocks. SeaTow made a killing that night as well as the boatyards. Even if you put your own anchor out while rafting up, you are still at risk. Your partner may not have his set right and you may have both boats on your anchor in a blow and that's not going to hold. So raft up, party and have a good time but before you pass out, go anchor off by yourself someplace and get it set right. As for determining if your moving at night...easy...just look at your lat and long numbers. Get a feel for how they change when your not dragging (they will change because of the swing) so when you look at it in the night, it will be easy to tell. Of course, you can also set your anchor alarms...but that only tells you if you have ALREADY dragged X number of feet. If you have a handheld, you don't even have to get out of the birth to see if your anchor is ok. When anchoring, I sleep with my handled GPS in my hand.
rule of thumb
Each summer I cruise the Tidewater rivers with two or three other boats. We raft up most evenings usually to the Columbia 10.7 that comes along. Lay out the main anchor on the Columbia only. It's too much trouble with swinging tides and tangled rodes and deep keels for just one line to wrap. When the location is open, the rule of thumb is if it's blowing enough to question the anchor holding the raft, then it's also blowing hard enough to cause boats to bang, bounce, and tangle rigging so we end up breaking apart and have everyone sit on their own anchor.
Each summer I cruise the Tidewater rivers with two or three other boats. We raft up most evenings usually to the Columbia 10.7 that comes along. Lay out the main anchor on the Columbia only. It's too much trouble with swinging tides and tangled rodes and deep keels for just one line to wrap. When the location is open, the rule of thumb is if it's blowing enough to question the anchor holding the raft, then it's also blowing hard enough to cause boats to bang, bounce, and tangle rigging so we end up breaking apart and have everyone sit on their own anchor.
You really need to do some more reading....
Before you continue sailing? Recommended scope for a single boat is 7:1 with shorter scopes allowed for benign conditions but only after the anchor has been properly set at least 7:1 (as in backed down on or the sail back winded to sufficiently burry the anchor in the mud). In heavy weather ie: winds over 20 knots a longer scope may be necessary 8:1, 9:1, or even 10:1 may be needed and this is for one boat not three. David's anchor is already undersized, perhaps appropriate for my 20 Mako, and on top of that if there is a wind or tide shift the Danforth/Fortress style anchors have a significantly lower probablility of re-setting than do a Bruce, CQR, Spade, Rocna or Delta. The 10' of chain is also to short and this will only compound the issue of a small Danforth on a 31 foot sail boat. A 33# Rocna, 33# Bruce, 35# CQR, Spade S-80 or Delta 35 would be much more appropriate for his one boat. If your cheap a 25# model of the above anchors could be used for benign conditions but cross your fingers and let out the scope in any serious wind. If you look at manufacturers sizing recommendations the combined weight of the boats should be added together to get a proper sized anchor. David has approx 25000 lbs. of displacement with the three boats listed and this does noat account for windage. If you go by manufacturers suggested anchor sizes based on this displacement you'd need a huge anchor. The Rocna site recommends a 55# anchor for that weight. My thoughts on raft ups are to keep them confined to a fixed mooring or a lunch time type of set up. If you can't run at least a 7:1 plus + scope don't even attempt this in anything but glass conditions with that anchor. Scope is figured using this method: water depth (at highest tide) + height of bow from the water multiplied by 7 will give you the amount of rode to let out. In my 35 years of boating I've witnessed five or six "raft ups" on the rocks and been dragged onto personally by two raft ups. I've witnesed numerous tangles of other peoples boats due to raft ups as well. Unless you are prepared to pay the deductibles of the peoples boats you damage, my deductible is $2750.00 to give you an idea, don't risk it. Rafting with your current set up is flatout wrong! You know it's wrong that is why you asked the question. As for how to raft up? One anchor is the preferred method using the biggest boat in the middle with long scope, 7:1 + (in ten feet of water with a 4 foot bow height that would be 140' of rode) and proper ground tackle. My advice is don't do it or only do it at lunch and then seperate the boats..
Before you continue sailing? Recommended scope for a single boat is 7:1 with shorter scopes allowed for benign conditions but only after the anchor has been properly set at least 7:1 (as in backed down on or the sail back winded to sufficiently burry the anchor in the mud). In heavy weather ie: winds over 20 knots a longer scope may be necessary 8:1, 9:1, or even 10:1 may be needed and this is for one boat not three. David's anchor is already undersized, perhaps appropriate for my 20 Mako, and on top of that if there is a wind or tide shift the Danforth/Fortress style anchors have a significantly lower probablility of re-setting than do a Bruce, CQR, Spade, Rocna or Delta. The 10' of chain is also to short and this will only compound the issue of a small Danforth on a 31 foot sail boat. A 33# Rocna, 33# Bruce, 35# CQR, Spade S-80 or Delta 35 would be much more appropriate for his one boat. If your cheap a 25# model of the above anchors could be used for benign conditions but cross your fingers and let out the scope in any serious wind. If you look at manufacturers sizing recommendations the combined weight of the boats should be added together to get a proper sized anchor. David has approx 25000 lbs. of displacement with the three boats listed and this does noat account for windage. If you go by manufacturers suggested anchor sizes based on this displacement you'd need a huge anchor. The Rocna site recommends a 55# anchor for that weight. My thoughts on raft ups are to keep them confined to a fixed mooring or a lunch time type of set up. If you can't run at least a 7:1 plus + scope don't even attempt this in anything but glass conditions with that anchor. Scope is figured using this method: water depth (at highest tide) + height of bow from the water multiplied by 7 will give you the amount of rode to let out. In my 35 years of boating I've witnessed five or six "raft ups" on the rocks and been dragged onto personally by two raft ups. I've witnesed numerous tangles of other peoples boats due to raft ups as well. Unless you are prepared to pay the deductibles of the peoples boats you damage, my deductible is $2750.00 to give you an idea, don't risk it. Rafting with your current set up is flatout wrong! You know it's wrong that is why you asked the question. As for how to raft up? One anchor is the preferred method using the biggest boat in the middle with long scope, 7:1 + (in ten feet of water with a 4 foot bow height that would be 140' of rode) and proper ground tackle. My advice is don't do it or only do it at lunch and then seperate the boats..
Anchor answers.....
First off I actually own both the Spade A-80 and the Spade S-80. The reason I purchased the steel version of the Spade was because in a hard mud bottom the aluminum version while about 14 lbs above water becomes more like 8-9 lbs. below and had a very tough time penetrating a hard bottom. My first time set rate with the A-80 was somewhere around 75-80% & similar to a CQR where the S-80 has set first try set at about 98%. The steel version I have absolutely no problems with at all. It does set and hold very well and I use the S-80 as my back up anchor and like the fact that I can store it "knocked down" meaning taken apart. As for the Manson it is amazing! The Manson Supreme, from what I understand, is a knock off of the Rocna. It sets imediatly & has sharpened edges, like an arrow head, and slices through weeds and grass with no problem. My first time set rate with this anchor has been 100% with almost 85 sets this year already. I have yet to have this anchor drag even while backing down with my engine in reverse at cruise rpm. Back in April we weatherered a storm with 45-50 knots and the cookie trail, zoomed into 20 feet showed absolutely no movement in the morning. All it does is bury it deeper. The design of the roll bar forces the anchor to land in the perfect set position every time without having to add tip weight which increases the cross section of the anchor where it needs to penetrate a bottom. I like that! I can honestly say I have found "my anchor" after trying every possible brand over the last twenty five years. This design wether it's a Rocna or Manson is incredible. I have yet to find conditions where this anchor does not set within a few feet! I've owned and still own a CQR, Bruce, Fortress, Spade & Delta and none of them except the Bruce & Spade even comes close to the performance of this anchor (I know some old school diehard CQR guys will dispute this so go ahead). I really loved my Bruce anchor but the limited holding power scared me after riding out a few hard blows where I did not sleep I decided to seek yet another anchor. Although I never actually dragged the Bruce (very far) I have more piece of mind while sleeping on the Manson than I did with any of the other anchors... OK onto the C-310. Yes we did switch to power for one year and it absolutely sucked. It's kind of like commuting to work but without the traffic. We traded in our 86 C-36 on the Mainship and regretted it rather quickly.. I had always really wanted a C-320 or C-310 even before we bought the C-36 so when it came time to trade in the Mainship my wife decided the C-310 was for us and not the C-320. She really hates sleeping in an aft cabin and the 320 has a very cramped forepeak so the 310 it was. As for saailing performance the 36 still feels like a substantially heavier boat but it lacks in the light air performance. We purchased the boat show special so she was loaded with every conceivable option available on a 310 including a RF main. After having a RF main I will never ever go back period, it's that good. Yes I give up a little performance but the 310, 320, 350, 380/390 etc. were designed for a RF main with longer booms and rigs/hulls designed around a RF concept. I routinely beat a local 320 with full batten and deep keel so I think ability plays a large role also. Of course if the skipper of the 320 was a better sailor he'd probably beat me 9 out of ten times. We're not racers so .02 of a knot means nothing to us but the convience of infinite reefing while never leaving the cockpit does. We also sail more because of the RF. It takes me less than 30 seconds to open the main and 30 seconds to put it away. In light winds while others are motoring with no sails we routinely open and close the sails to catch the short fifteen minutes of wind. If it dies no big deal the sails are put away with no fuss.. We really, really love our 310. Although we may be selling for a couple of years, with an adoption in progress, when we come back we will probably go with another 310. Who knows I might just put her in storage until were ready to sail again but it's a rather big investment to let sit for that amount of time...
First off I actually own both the Spade A-80 and the Spade S-80. The reason I purchased the steel version of the Spade was because in a hard mud bottom the aluminum version while about 14 lbs above water becomes more like 8-9 lbs. below and had a very tough time penetrating a hard bottom. My first time set rate with the A-80 was somewhere around 75-80% & similar to a CQR where the S-80 has set first try set at about 98%. The steel version I have absolutely no problems with at all. It does set and hold very well and I use the S-80 as my back up anchor and like the fact that I can store it "knocked down" meaning taken apart. As for the Manson it is amazing! The Manson Supreme, from what I understand, is a knock off of the Rocna. It sets imediatly & has sharpened edges, like an arrow head, and slices through weeds and grass with no problem. My first time set rate with this anchor has been 100% with almost 85 sets this year already. I have yet to have this anchor drag even while backing down with my engine in reverse at cruise rpm. Back in April we weatherered a storm with 45-50 knots and the cookie trail, zoomed into 20 feet showed absolutely no movement in the morning. All it does is bury it deeper. The design of the roll bar forces the anchor to land in the perfect set position every time without having to add tip weight which increases the cross section of the anchor where it needs to penetrate a bottom. I like that! I can honestly say I have found "my anchor" after trying every possible brand over the last twenty five years. This design wether it's a Rocna or Manson is incredible. I have yet to find conditions where this anchor does not set within a few feet! I've owned and still own a CQR, Bruce, Fortress, Spade & Delta and none of them except the Bruce & Spade even comes close to the performance of this anchor (I know some old school diehard CQR guys will dispute this so go ahead). I really loved my Bruce anchor but the limited holding power scared me after riding out a few hard blows where I did not sleep I decided to seek yet another anchor. Although I never actually dragged the Bruce (very far) I have more piece of mind while sleeping on the Manson than I did with any of the other anchors... OK onto the C-310. Yes we did switch to power for one year and it absolutely sucked. It's kind of like commuting to work but without the traffic. We traded in our 86 C-36 on the Mainship and regretted it rather quickly.. I had always really wanted a C-320 or C-310 even before we bought the C-36 so when it came time to trade in the Mainship my wife decided the C-310 was for us and not the C-320. She really hates sleeping in an aft cabin and the 320 has a very cramped forepeak so the 310 it was. As for saailing performance the 36 still feels like a substantially heavier boat but it lacks in the light air performance. We purchased the boat show special so she was loaded with every conceivable option available on a 310 including a RF main. After having a RF main I will never ever go back period, it's that good. Yes I give up a little performance but the 310, 320, 350, 380/390 etc. were designed for a RF main with longer booms and rigs/hulls designed around a RF concept. I routinely beat a local 320 with full batten and deep keel so I think ability plays a large role also. Of course if the skipper of the 320 was a better sailor he'd probably beat me 9 out of ten times. We're not racers so .02 of a knot means nothing to us but the convience of infinite reefing while never leaving the cockpit does. We also sail more because of the RF. It takes me less than 30 seconds to open the main and 30 seconds to put it away. In light winds while others are motoring with no sails we routinely open and close the sails to catch the short fifteen minutes of wind. If it dies no big deal the sails are put away with no fuss.. We really, really love our 310. Although we may be selling for a couple of years, with an adoption in progress, when we come back we will probably go with another 310. Who knows I might just put her in storage until were ready to sail again but it's a rather big investment to let sit for that amount of time...
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