Hi gang, I purchased a JRC 1500 Radar at the Seattle Boat Show for my 1992 Hunter 335. Since then I've been evaluating mounting alternatives and have reached a tentative conclusion which I'd like to get some feedback on. 1. Mast Mount. Based on observation at a few marinas and also an article in Practical Sailor, this seems to be by far the most popular alternative. However, I've got a 135 genoa and believe both the radar and the sail will get beat up every time I tack. The radar could be protected, but probably not the sail. Also the opportunity for fouling lines is there and the complexity of running the cables to the display unit seem a bit high. 2. Backstay mount. This was my first choice--specifically the split backstay mount from the chandlery on this site. However, the guy who sells the backstay mount says you have to tighten the backstays to provide the rigidity for an effective mount. He recommends this only if your forestay goes to the top of the mast. The H335 has a fractional rig. 3. Pole mount on the stern with a bracket on the pulpit. I'm not wild about this because it adds clutter around the cockpit but have concluded that it's the "least worst" option. I'm thinking maybe Garhauer with a gimballed mounting bracket on the platform and a loop in the cable to reduce stress on the cable from the movement . Before I take the plunge, I would appreciate the voices of experience and any feedback you have to offer. Thanks for your help. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
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Best Least Worst Option
Why I selected the stern pole: 1. Had already filled up my mast conduits with other conductors and didn't want a loose wire in the mast, and, other problems related to mast mounts I heard of. For Puget Sound to Alaska I don't think the height of a mast mount setup will buy much. One advantage of the mast mount above the foresday is there is no forward mast shadow. 2. Backstay mount: (a) I have an adjustable backstay so didn't want any stuff on it, and (b), more importantly, didn't want to add metal fatigue concerns to the rig. The constant motion of the antenna weight on the stay will cause stresses which will be felt by all the other stays. Tip: to minimize metal fatigue keep the back stay tight when not in use. One H-43 on a trip from Australia to Hawaii lost it's mast about 800 miles out and the skipper attributed that to metal fatigue of the forestay caused by the weight and constant motion of the furled jib. His boat speed was so fast under main alone he didn't use the jib much! 3. Stern pole: This setup is removable without leaving holes in the boat. Guyed mast off to railing but should be guyed to deck with 1-inch tube. Didn't use a self-leveling setup. More often than not when the visibility is so bad that radar is needed then I'm under power. For example, crosing the Strait of Juan de Fuca (when the wind blows the fog usually blows away). Recommended radar accessories: (1) Radar reflector (or two), (2) Loud Hailer/automatic fog horn setup. The setup I have (Standard LH-5) allows one to use the horn to listen with (talk back) which is really handy in fog. The regulations require a horn signal every two minutes when in fog, while moving or anchored. I've used the moving signal a lot but hardly ever the anchor signal. Usually only when I'm the only one in the anchorage or when there a number of boats going through the anchorage and I'm anchored near their route. Also, in an anchorage you can usually hear the lookout people on the approaching boat so one can flip on the foghorn signal as slightly reduced volume until they're clear so if they bump into someone hopefully it isn't you. If there is an "incident" the Coast Guard report should show you did everything right.
Why I selected the stern pole: 1. Had already filled up my mast conduits with other conductors and didn't want a loose wire in the mast, and, other problems related to mast mounts I heard of. For Puget Sound to Alaska I don't think the height of a mast mount setup will buy much. One advantage of the mast mount above the foresday is there is no forward mast shadow. 2. Backstay mount: (a) I have an adjustable backstay so didn't want any stuff on it, and (b), more importantly, didn't want to add metal fatigue concerns to the rig. The constant motion of the antenna weight on the stay will cause stresses which will be felt by all the other stays. Tip: to minimize metal fatigue keep the back stay tight when not in use. One H-43 on a trip from Australia to Hawaii lost it's mast about 800 miles out and the skipper attributed that to metal fatigue of the forestay caused by the weight and constant motion of the furled jib. His boat speed was so fast under main alone he didn't use the jib much! 3. Stern pole: This setup is removable without leaving holes in the boat. Guyed mast off to railing but should be guyed to deck with 1-inch tube. Didn't use a self-leveling setup. More often than not when the visibility is so bad that radar is needed then I'm under power. For example, crosing the Strait of Juan de Fuca (when the wind blows the fog usually blows away). Recommended radar accessories: (1) Radar reflector (or two), (2) Loud Hailer/automatic fog horn setup. The setup I have (Standard LH-5) allows one to use the horn to listen with (talk back) which is really handy in fog. The regulations require a horn signal every two minutes when in fog, while moving or anchored. I've used the moving signal a lot but hardly ever the anchor signal. Usually only when I'm the only one in the anchorage or when there a number of boats going through the anchorage and I'm anchored near their route. Also, in an anchorage you can usually hear the lookout people on the approaching boat so one can flip on the foghorn signal as slightly reduced volume until they're clear so if they bump into someone hopefully it isn't you. If there is an "incident" the Coast Guard report should show you did everything right.
If it's a fractional rig...
...Is there any problem with mounting the radar unit on the mast _above_ the forestay? That would solve the problem of beating up the jib. (I've never had to deal with radar, so I don't know if this is a reasonable idea or not. Just a thought.) --Jon Bastien
...Is there any problem with mounting the radar unit on the mast _above_ the forestay? That would solve the problem of beating up the jib. (I've never had to deal with radar, so I don't know if this is a reasonable idea or not. Just a thought.) --Jon Bastien
Response to John
Jon, Good question. Putting the radar up that high would definitely avoid the genoa/radar contact. It also increases your effective range in terms of how far the radar can "see". But it also creates two other problems. 1. The higher your antenna the more "farsighted" the radar becomes, i.e. it's ability to distinguish close in targets decreases. 2. JRC recommends the maximum length of the cable between the antenna and the display is 20 meters. Given the mast height and other cable routing considerations, the 20 meters would be exceeded. Perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure I can get the mate to go up that high to mount the antenna!
) Thanks for the suggestion. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
Jon, Good question. Putting the radar up that high would definitely avoid the genoa/radar contact. It also increases your effective range in terms of how far the radar can "see". But it also creates two other problems. 1. The higher your antenna the more "farsighted" the radar becomes, i.e. it's ability to distinguish close in targets decreases. 2. JRC recommends the maximum length of the cable between the antenna and the display is 20 meters. Given the mast height and other cable routing considerations, the 20 meters would be exceeded. Perhaps most importantly, I'm not sure I can get the mate to go up that high to mount the antenna!
) Thanks for the suggestion. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335Mast Mount
I have mine mounted on the mast and my sail has a reinforced patch on the sail to prevent chafe. Granted, the original jib is a 110% and only a small portion slides across the radome. I guess with a 135% the drag gets larger. But talk to your sailmaker, he may have a recommendation. You can't be the first person to ask him the question.
I have mine mounted on the mast and my sail has a reinforced patch on the sail to prevent chafe. Granted, the original jib is a 110% and only a small portion slides across the radome. I guess with a 135% the drag gets larger. But talk to your sailmaker, he may have a recommendation. You can't be the first person to ask him the question.
radar
l would go pole mount,no sails to get in the way. There is less wiring to do. The radar is close to the power. l like the Garhauer tower with hoist.
l would go pole mount,no sails to get in the way. There is less wiring to do. The radar is close to the power. l like the Garhauer tower with hoist.
Bottom Up
If cost matters, the mast mount is cheaper and in my opinion a simpler installation. With one friend helping we completed the project in 15 or 16 hours. Neither of us had done it before. We could have reduced that time significantly if we had installed the antenna cable from bottom up rather then trying unsuccessfully from top down. The headsail rubs the antenna when tacking but I do not know anyone that has had a problem caused by the rubbing.
If cost matters, the mast mount is cheaper and in my opinion a simpler installation. With one friend helping we completed the project in 15 or 16 hours. Neither of us had done it before. We could have reduced that time significantly if we had installed the antenna cable from bottom up rather then trying unsuccessfully from top down. The headsail rubs the antenna when tacking but I do not know anyone that has had a problem caused by the rubbing.
Some more info on radar installation
John Nantz always has good coments and I agree with him. I've had radar for just one year and have enjoyed using it. I installed a Raytheon 70C on a Edson pole on the stern and installed the display unit on the arch right in front of the helm station. It is a perfect place for us on this boat (H380) The pole is tall but well secured to the aft deck and to the pushpit seat. I followed Bob Knox's advice and made sure the pole was on a hinged unit at the base so I can drop the pole down to work on the radar. Some observations: Heigth is not necessary for distance as I generally use a quarter mile to a half mile to see what is in the shipping lane. The islands around here keep you from seeing 24 miles (my unit's distance) . I still haven't figured out why someone would want 48 miles visability, but I am not going around the world.. What I use the radar for is to confirm what my GPS is saying. And to help me keep track of boats coming from the rear (fast power boats) It is a nifty item to have. I'm also quite happy with the pole for another reason. I put on a halyard for the flag which gets it out of the way and up where it can be seen. Indeed, I'm one of the few that can fly the flag at half mast while underway. Wireing from the pole was relatively easy. One wire to the naviagaion post and one to the arch for the display and one to the steering station to attach to the instruments (speed, GPS, autopilot, etc.) I haven't learned all of its capabilities but I'm learning. Put me down for a pole vote.
John Nantz always has good coments and I agree with him. I've had radar for just one year and have enjoyed using it. I installed a Raytheon 70C on a Edson pole on the stern and installed the display unit on the arch right in front of the helm station. It is a perfect place for us on this boat (H380) The pole is tall but well secured to the aft deck and to the pushpit seat. I followed Bob Knox's advice and made sure the pole was on a hinged unit at the base so I can drop the pole down to work on the radar. Some observations: Heigth is not necessary for distance as I generally use a quarter mile to a half mile to see what is in the shipping lane. The islands around here keep you from seeing 24 miles (my unit's distance) . I still haven't figured out why someone would want 48 miles visability, but I am not going around the world.. What I use the radar for is to confirm what my GPS is saying. And to help me keep track of boats coming from the rear (fast power boats) It is a nifty item to have. I'm also quite happy with the pole for another reason. I put on a halyard for the flag which gets it out of the way and up where it can be seen. Indeed, I'm one of the few that can fly the flag at half mast while underway. Wireing from the pole was relatively easy. One wire to the naviagaion post and one to the arch for the display and one to the steering station to attach to the instruments (speed, GPS, autopilot, etc.) I haven't learned all of its capabilities but I'm learning. Put me down for a pole vote.
Some observations to John N. and Gail M.
And other observations in general. 1) John N. says "One advantage of the mast mount above the foresday is there is no forward mast shadow." --I'm not sure that is true. I have radar on the split backstay and have been on many boats with Radars in the "rear" of the boat and have never seen a mast shadow. Even talking to Raytheon confirms that the radar doesn't even start "seeing" things until well past the length it takes to get past most masts...Plus the motion of the boat lets the radar "see" on both sides if it did. 2) John N. says "more importantly, didn't want to add metal fatigue concerns to the rig. The constant motion of the antenna weight on the stay will cause stresses which will be felt by all the other stays." --Ok possibly, but this depends on the type of backstay mount being used. But the better ones do not sit on the stay and put pressure on it like a roller furling unit would. In fact the base of the backstay mounts are attached at the base on the boat or the chain plate area and act as a "torsion bar" so to speak. Very little force is actually imposed on the stay, its just there to keep it in the general area. In the case of the Questus model the amount of force on the stay is about the same as you holding on to the stay while sailing......Think like a stern pole mount but angled forward. 3) John N. says " Didn't use a self-leveling setup. More often than not when the visibility is so bad that radar is needed then I'm under power." -- Hmmm, Well I don't know how it is on the west coast with fog, but in New England very often there are good winds to sail but there is still fog....its a very strange phenomenon ...but very real in new england. Yes lots of times you will be motoring, but possibly motorsailing....and I'd rather be sailing in the fog. There is less noise from the engine and it makes it easier to hear.....As stated by some the Garhauer unit is an excellent unit...and it comes with a manual level adjuster. 4) Gail M. said "the mast mount is cheaper and in my opinion a simpler installation. With one friend helping we completed the project in 15 or 16 hours." -- Cheaper yes!...The mast mount has to be on average one of the least expensive....But simpler??!!...NO WAY !...16 Hours!?!..You can mount the Stern mount or Backstay Mount in just a couple of hours and routing the wires are a snap....especially since most radar display installation are in the cockpit these days, just go through the lazarettes and "pop" you are there. I can't imagine the hassle to route the wire through and under the floor boards in the boat not to mention up the mast...Oh and yeah...you need a specialized junction box for the mast because if you take the mast down every winter it needs to be disconnected and reconnected. One other observation not noted.....but the concerns are there. Most Stern pole or Backstay Mounts are only about 8 feet above the mounting deck. This puts it in a place that if anyone is standing on the foredeck for any period of time he will be getting "microwaved". Yes most people are in the cockpit while sailing/motoring in the fog, but what if you have a "spotter" on the front of the boat to watch for lobster pots or other boats or something...........I have no evidence that it will cause harm...BUT....it does make you think twice....and down that low you WILL be getting it. Final Observations... a)Most Bomb proof installation. Mast mount - I think once its there and done well its the most secure location. If I was travelling the seven seas, this would be my choice... b) Best Compromise solution Factoring in Cost and ease of installation I would have to pick the Stern Mount. Added benefits are that it also becomes a platform for items...Lights, Antennas, Engine hoiseetc, etc......BEST BUY Garhauer unit..All Stainless steel..only $500 includes engine hoist AND a manual level adjuster! c) Slickest solution Self leveling backstay mount Questus unit. Its out of the way, follows the looks and line of the boat AND of course self leveling....a very nice feature. If it was me I would also order extension tube to get the radar higher than the 8 feet above the deck....bit pricey though!
And other observations in general. 1) John N. says "One advantage of the mast mount above the foresday is there is no forward mast shadow." --I'm not sure that is true. I have radar on the split backstay and have been on many boats with Radars in the "rear" of the boat and have never seen a mast shadow. Even talking to Raytheon confirms that the radar doesn't even start "seeing" things until well past the length it takes to get past most masts...Plus the motion of the boat lets the radar "see" on both sides if it did. 2) John N. says "more importantly, didn't want to add metal fatigue concerns to the rig. The constant motion of the antenna weight on the stay will cause stresses which will be felt by all the other stays." --Ok possibly, but this depends on the type of backstay mount being used. But the better ones do not sit on the stay and put pressure on it like a roller furling unit would. In fact the base of the backstay mounts are attached at the base on the boat or the chain plate area and act as a "torsion bar" so to speak. Very little force is actually imposed on the stay, its just there to keep it in the general area. In the case of the Questus model the amount of force on the stay is about the same as you holding on to the stay while sailing......Think like a stern pole mount but angled forward. 3) John N. says " Didn't use a self-leveling setup. More often than not when the visibility is so bad that radar is needed then I'm under power." -- Hmmm, Well I don't know how it is on the west coast with fog, but in New England very often there are good winds to sail but there is still fog....its a very strange phenomenon ...but very real in new england. Yes lots of times you will be motoring, but possibly motorsailing....and I'd rather be sailing in the fog. There is less noise from the engine and it makes it easier to hear.....As stated by some the Garhauer unit is an excellent unit...and it comes with a manual level adjuster. 4) Gail M. said "the mast mount is cheaper and in my opinion a simpler installation. With one friend helping we completed the project in 15 or 16 hours." -- Cheaper yes!...The mast mount has to be on average one of the least expensive....But simpler??!!...NO WAY !...16 Hours!?!..You can mount the Stern mount or Backstay Mount in just a couple of hours and routing the wires are a snap....especially since most radar display installation are in the cockpit these days, just go through the lazarettes and "pop" you are there. I can't imagine the hassle to route the wire through and under the floor boards in the boat not to mention up the mast...Oh and yeah...you need a specialized junction box for the mast because if you take the mast down every winter it needs to be disconnected and reconnected. One other observation not noted.....but the concerns are there. Most Stern pole or Backstay Mounts are only about 8 feet above the mounting deck. This puts it in a place that if anyone is standing on the foredeck for any period of time he will be getting "microwaved". Yes most people are in the cockpit while sailing/motoring in the fog, but what if you have a "spotter" on the front of the boat to watch for lobster pots or other boats or something...........I have no evidence that it will cause harm...BUT....it does make you think twice....and down that low you WILL be getting it. Final Observations... a)Most Bomb proof installation. Mast mount - I think once its there and done well its the most secure location. If I was travelling the seven seas, this would be my choice... b) Best Compromise solution Factoring in Cost and ease of installation I would have to pick the Stern Mount. Added benefits are that it also becomes a platform for items...Lights, Antennas, Engine hoiseetc, etc......BEST BUY Garhauer unit..All Stainless steel..only $500 includes engine hoist AND a manual level adjuster! c) Slickest solution Self leveling backstay mount Questus unit. Its out of the way, follows the looks and line of the boat AND of course self leveling....a very nice feature. If it was me I would also order extension tube to get the radar higher than the 8 feet above the deck....bit pricey though!
I Agonized Too
I bought the JRC 1000 and agonised for a year as to the best mounting. Then it came near to my departure on a cruise so I made a simple U shaped arch in 1" SS tube and attached it to the sides of the transom gate with 2 off jubilee clips each side. Originally this was to only be a temporary arrangement but it is so successful I intend to keep it. Surprisingly, though flexible, this small arch does not "pant" in a seaway. The answer to the mast shadow is that the scanner is much wider than the mast so energy goes out/comes back either side of the mast and you do not seem to loose any signal. Look in the Archives too. Regards,
I bought the JRC 1000 and agonised for a year as to the best mounting. Then it came near to my departure on a cruise so I made a simple U shaped arch in 1" SS tube and attached it to the sides of the transom gate with 2 off jubilee clips each side. Originally this was to only be a temporary arrangement but it is so successful I intend to keep it. Surprisingly, though flexible, this small arch does not "pant" in a seaway. The answer to the mast shadow is that the scanner is much wider than the mast so energy goes out/comes back either side of the mast and you do not seem to loose any signal. Look in the Archives too. Regards,
Mast Shadow and Backstay Horz Force
Maybe I should elaborate on my post with regard to these two items. Mast Shadow: So you know where I am coming from, the radar I have is a Raytheon 16 mile circa 1993 which is mounted on the stern. I got the radar before our trip to the Charlottes which was up the outside of the Pacific coast (Cape Scott to Cape St James) below Alaska. This is an area where very large waves are known to occur (south of Cape St James) and two months after the trip a 105 foot wave was measured here with a wave height measuring buoy. That's an aside. Anyway, no mater how it is tuned there is a faint area of a few degrees in the direction of mast where there is always a "shadow". Perhaps, it may possible, that the targets in this area are just as bright and well defined as everywhere else but this with the slight shadow, or fog effect, I'm always concerned about what's there. With the slight additional fog effect on the screen it makes the target just slightly more difficult to pick out. If there was a faint target, say a fiberglass boat without a radar reflector, or a wood barge, and for some reason everything was moving at just exactly the wrong rate, it may be possible to miss a really poor target. Perhaps the new radar’s don't have this problem but I have heard other sailors mention it. Backstay forces: The horizontal force on a backstay produces much more tension force than might be realized. It's not the vertical component that is of concern but the horizontal, and then primarily the variation in the horizontal. Every movement of the boat, every wave, causes the weight of the backstay mounted radar to generate a horizontal force as it moves back and forth, which is then magnified many times as it is converted to a tension load on the backstay and all its connectors. This constant horizontal loading could cause premature failure via metal fatigue of the stay and the experience of the skipper losing his mast that I mentioned previously leaves me concerned about this type of installation. Jetliners have been brought down by failure of a bolt caused by metal fatigue. Then add salt air and crevice corrosion to the mix. Everyone has their individual comfort level with regard to things and in this regard I am concerned about the use of the backstay for mounting a radome. John Nantz Professional Engineer
Maybe I should elaborate on my post with regard to these two items. Mast Shadow: So you know where I am coming from, the radar I have is a Raytheon 16 mile circa 1993 which is mounted on the stern. I got the radar before our trip to the Charlottes which was up the outside of the Pacific coast (Cape Scott to Cape St James) below Alaska. This is an area where very large waves are known to occur (south of Cape St James) and two months after the trip a 105 foot wave was measured here with a wave height measuring buoy. That's an aside. Anyway, no mater how it is tuned there is a faint area of a few degrees in the direction of mast where there is always a "shadow". Perhaps, it may possible, that the targets in this area are just as bright and well defined as everywhere else but this with the slight shadow, or fog effect, I'm always concerned about what's there. With the slight additional fog effect on the screen it makes the target just slightly more difficult to pick out. If there was a faint target, say a fiberglass boat without a radar reflector, or a wood barge, and for some reason everything was moving at just exactly the wrong rate, it may be possible to miss a really poor target. Perhaps the new radar’s don't have this problem but I have heard other sailors mention it. Backstay forces: The horizontal force on a backstay produces much more tension force than might be realized. It's not the vertical component that is of concern but the horizontal, and then primarily the variation in the horizontal. Every movement of the boat, every wave, causes the weight of the backstay mounted radar to generate a horizontal force as it moves back and forth, which is then magnified many times as it is converted to a tension load on the backstay and all its connectors. This constant horizontal loading could cause premature failure via metal fatigue of the stay and the experience of the skipper losing his mast that I mentioned previously leaves me concerned about this type of installation. Jetliners have been brought down by failure of a bolt caused by metal fatigue. Then add salt air and crevice corrosion to the mix. Everyone has their individual comfort level with regard to things and in this regard I am concerned about the use of the backstay for mounting a radome. John Nantz Professional Engineer
John N. I understand you concern. I really do
And until I ACTUALLY physically saw an installation on a backstay mounted radar with a Questus Mount I was a disbeleiver also. I totally agree if the mount is directly attached to the backstay, as per the type that might be used with a Radar On The Level with it attaching ONLY to the split back stay plate ...then I agree,. But I do not agree with your assessment to the type that are mounted via a tube that is directly attached to the hull....Well over 90% of the forces are transmitted directly to the hull/chain plate. Very little horizontal forces are applied to the back stay. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS ROLLER FURLING UNIT which has no rigid attachment to the front chain plate nor the deck Have you ever seen a Questus type backstay mount??!? .....VERY rigid. In fact just 2 weekends ago I walked around our yard with sailboats on the hard for the winter. (there happensn to be a lot of units in my marina....I have heard of no failures) I was inspecting the Questus Units. They are very solidly attached and create little or no motion when heavy pressure is applied horizonatally or vertically (of course vertical is literally impossible) These are TORSION systems.....most of the load is applied on the deck ...2 completely different mechanical systems ...the roller furling and the Questus type backstay system. Yes there is *some* load applied to the stay....but at its worst it is not any worse than someone hanging on....If someone is worried about their boat and the stays on it due to these (small) loads than I suggest they upgrade the size of their stays or never sail the boat anywhere with ANY kind of wind/seaway because these loads are minimal and whatever fatigue it might cause are insignificant.
And until I ACTUALLY physically saw an installation on a backstay mounted radar with a Questus Mount I was a disbeleiver also. I totally agree if the mount is directly attached to the backstay, as per the type that might be used with a Radar On The Level with it attaching ONLY to the split back stay plate ...then I agree,. But I do not agree with your assessment to the type that are mounted via a tube that is directly attached to the hull....Well over 90% of the forces are transmitted directly to the hull/chain plate. Very little horizontal forces are applied to the back stay. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS ROLLER FURLING UNIT which has no rigid attachment to the front chain plate nor the deck Have you ever seen a Questus type backstay mount??!? .....VERY rigid. In fact just 2 weekends ago I walked around our yard with sailboats on the hard for the winter. (there happensn to be a lot of units in my marina....I have heard of no failures) I was inspecting the Questus Units. They are very solidly attached and create little or no motion when heavy pressure is applied horizonatally or vertically (of course vertical is literally impossible) These are TORSION systems.....most of the load is applied on the deck ...2 completely different mechanical systems ...the roller furling and the Questus type backstay system. Yes there is *some* load applied to the stay....but at its worst it is not any worse than someone hanging on....If someone is worried about their boat and the stays on it due to these (small) loads than I suggest they upgrade the size of their stays or never sail the boat anywhere with ANY kind of wind/seaway because these loads are minimal and whatever fatigue it might cause are insignificant.
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