My 356 is being commissioned and we're in a quandary as to where to place the radar dome since the opinions are numerous. So, why not get some opinions from 356 owners? What do you think, poll, arch, mast? Give us your best comments. Thanks.
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Daniel Jonas
Radar
We put ours on the mast. An arch is going to look a litle strange just behind the other arch and we think that is not high enough anyway. A pole is a reasonable alternative. If you wanted to add a few other things, like another VHF antenna in an alternate location and/or an outboard lift, then maybe the mast makes sense. The mast might get in the way of a bimini off the back of the arch...ours goes back quite far. We put both VHF antennas on the mast. Downside to that is if we loose the mast, we are down to the portable VHF. Wiring is a little more difficult from the mast, at least we would think so. You just have to figure out which compromises you want to make. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
We put ours on the mast. An arch is going to look a litle strange just behind the other arch and we think that is not high enough anyway. A pole is a reasonable alternative. If you wanted to add a few other things, like another VHF antenna in an alternate location and/or an outboard lift, then maybe the mast makes sense. The mast might get in the way of a bimini off the back of the arch...ours goes back quite far. We put both VHF antennas on the mast. Downside to that is if we loose the mast, we are down to the portable VHF. Wiring is a little more difficult from the mast, at least we would think so. You just have to figure out which compromises you want to make. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
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Miguel
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Sam Bocchicchio
Mast mount
Mount the radar dome to your mast. It not only looks better but gives you much more coverage.
Mount the radar dome to your mast. It not only looks better but gives you much more coverage.
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Chuck Wayne
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Deac Manross
What brand model of radar did you buy for 356?
......and with a 4k dome what would it have cost? I'm thinking of putting one in this year too. Did you get one that was integrated with a GPS chartplotter as well?
......and with a 4k dome what would it have cost? I'm thinking of putting one in this year too. Did you get one that was integrated with a GPS chartplotter as well?
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Chuck Wayne
356 radar
I went crazy in the toy store! we installed the RL70RC plus color radar/chartplotter at the wheel and the matching mono head at the nav station, with the 2k radome and the WAAS ray120 gps head on the sugarscoop. this setup gives us radar/chartplotter at both locations and 4 cartridge slots-the navigator can create routes and waypoints below, make course settings, and watch the radar below without interfering with the helm. We added the autohelm remote at both locations, so you can actually steer the boat from the nav station
I went crazy in the toy store! we installed the RL70RC plus color radar/chartplotter at the wheel and the matching mono head at the nav station, with the 2k radome and the WAAS ray120 gps head on the sugarscoop. this setup gives us radar/chartplotter at both locations and 4 cartridge slots-the navigator can create routes and waypoints below, make course settings, and watch the radar below without interfering with the helm. We added the autohelm remote at both locations, so you can actually steer the boat from the nav station
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Deac Manross
WHy a 2k and not a 4k radome?
If you're spending all that money for all those goodies down below, I'm curios why you didn't go for the longer range?
If you're spending all that money for all those goodies down below, I'm curios why you didn't go for the longer range?
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John H380 1999
2k works for us
In my opinion...our 2k goes out 16 mi. With a sailboat going around 5 kts, we usually stay at the 1-2 mi range so we can see the immediate area clearly. That gives time to change course if necessary. Also, the smaller targets will not show up if the range is pushed out to the higher levels. Freighters and cruise boats will show up on 16 mi, and sometimes marker buoys but smaller fishing boats will not. At the lower ranges everything will show up. Additionally, the beam is proportionally bigger therefore the dome will be larger for for the 4k. I haven't found that radar assists with spotting storms since, where we sail, the storms most always come off the land and can't be detected. We use the weather radio for that. I don't know anyone with a 4 k on a sailboat around our area.
In my opinion...our 2k goes out 16 mi. With a sailboat going around 5 kts, we usually stay at the 1-2 mi range so we can see the immediate area clearly. That gives time to change course if necessary. Also, the smaller targets will not show up if the range is pushed out to the higher levels. Freighters and cruise boats will show up on 16 mi, and sometimes marker buoys but smaller fishing boats will not. At the lower ranges everything will show up. Additionally, the beam is proportionally bigger therefore the dome will be larger for for the 4k. I haven't found that radar assists with spotting storms since, where we sail, the storms most always come off the land and can't be detected. We use the weather radio for that. I don't know anyone with a 4 k on a sailboat around our area.
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Chuck Wayne
2k vs 4k
John pretty much summed up the reasons, but in addition you get more windage with the 4k, use more battery power, and you don't really get the "full" range spec'd-your range is dependent not only on power and sensitivity(the rated range), but also on the relative horizon heights for your radome and the target. in any case. the most intersting targets are in close. Look at it this way: at freighter steaming straight at you at 32 knots (more like a navy ship, which would have their radar manned)would show up at 16 mi and still take 1/2 hour to reach you-you've got time to respond. the bigger danger is something close and low, like a fishing boat, that you might miss if you're watching the long range on your scope
John pretty much summed up the reasons, but in addition you get more windage with the 4k, use more battery power, and you don't really get the "full" range spec'd-your range is dependent not only on power and sensitivity(the rated range), but also on the relative horizon heights for your radome and the target. in any case. the most intersting targets are in close. Look at it this way: at freighter steaming straight at you at 32 knots (more like a navy ship, which would have their radar manned)would show up at 16 mi and still take 1/2 hour to reach you-you've got time to respond. the bigger danger is something close and low, like a fishing boat, that you might miss if you're watching the long range on your scope
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Fred Ficarra
Long range has some very good uses
In my opinion,,, I love our R20X by Raytheon (JRC) It is a 24Mi with the enclosed dome. We bought it in '91 and have used it as our primary form of navigation from Brownsville Washington to Trinidad and back. The antenna is mounted on a radar arch on our Hunter 34, Epitome'. Our unit is jumperd on the motherboard so that it displays the 32 mile range ring. It has the same display and power as the 32 mile model but without the open array antenna. Here is how we use the longer range. We set the range at 12 miles, then use the offset feature to our stern as far aft as it will move us. After the unit displays in offset mode we can increase the range to 24mi and low and behold, we can see ahead to 39.999999mi. That forty mile range is great for finding headlands when off shore or looking for the next 'bend in the road'. That range would not be available if we didn't jumper the motherboard to 32mi. The laws of physics apply with radar so there is little that we sailors can do with these things except select one to work with our personal style. Here is some other stuff I've learned. More important than power or range for close in viewing is 'Horizontal Beam Width'. The lower the number, the better the resolution. Our radar has a HBW of 2.2 degrees. That is much less than those lower powered units with smaller radomes. What that does for us is it lets us see the difference between a tug and a tow. Important in Puget Sound. We also find ourselves dodging DUCKs so factor that in too. And we can see the wake of ski boats and airplanes at low altitude. (as long as they aren't stealth). After a lightning strike off the coast of Panama (us too), our unit was in the shop for repairs. I had taken it to the States for repair but had to buy a Sitex with the same size dome but only 2kw of power. The first thing I noticed was that the buoys marking the channel to the Balboa entrance of the Panama Canal melded into one target before running out of buoys! That was scary enough but what really freaked me out was what we saw, or didn't see the next week in the Caribbean. We were sailing off shore past Isla Provedencia with no intention of visiting. It was a clear afternoon. We were looking at it. GPS said we were 17 miles from the near shore. It is 1700 Feet tall. The radar NEVER SAW IT on 24 mile range, or any range. I called the manufacturer when we reached the states and they had NO solution. The tuner was automatic so it's lack of performance could only be attributed to lack of power. We sold it and took a loss. Fortunately Raytheon was able to affect repair at a reasonable cost. A couple of years later, a idiotic navigational error by the skipper, (me) had us forty miles, or more on the wrong side of Grenada from Trinidad. I had used the wrong compass course for over 12 hours. The GPS was down because of a software defect. They were too expensive to carry a backup then. Besides, who needs GPS in the eastern Caribbean, right? Well at that point, all we had was dead reckoning and Radar. Our DR position plot was also based on a guess of 8 1/2 knots speed and a two knot favorable current. I say 'guess' because our knotmeter was down too. We plotted a course for Granada at sunset. (a friend was with me and we were suppose to pick up my wife at the airport the next afternoon) Of course the island was suppose to be now dead to windward (and 'currentward') We powered up! At 0400 local time, the airport of Grenada appeared at 33mi using the offset feature DIRECTLY OFF THE BOW!. The altitude of that airport is only about 20 feet but there it was! Never, have I felt such a sense of relief. You see, I don't study those dead reckoning 'how to' articles. We might have found the island without radar but I wouldn't have wanted to find out. We drove right in to Prickly Bay and met the flight. When my wife stepped out of Customs I acted like I had been hanging out and waiting for a week, HaH! Sure glad I got rid of that Sitex! Some other things to consider, the US Navy's primary means of navigation is radar. Since Pearl Harbor, no active Navy ship, anywhere, by regulation, is allowed to turn OFF its' radar. Also radar is not DR or even GPS. Those methods place your position in a 'cocked hat'. Your observed position on the radar screen is EXACTLY where you are! OK, these are just my personal experiences and opinions. I COULD BE WRONG! Fred Ficarra
In my opinion,,, I love our R20X by Raytheon (JRC) It is a 24Mi with the enclosed dome. We bought it in '91 and have used it as our primary form of navigation from Brownsville Washington to Trinidad and back. The antenna is mounted on a radar arch on our Hunter 34, Epitome'. Our unit is jumperd on the motherboard so that it displays the 32 mile range ring. It has the same display and power as the 32 mile model but without the open array antenna. Here is how we use the longer range. We set the range at 12 miles, then use the offset feature to our stern as far aft as it will move us. After the unit displays in offset mode we can increase the range to 24mi and low and behold, we can see ahead to 39.999999mi. That forty mile range is great for finding headlands when off shore or looking for the next 'bend in the road'. That range would not be available if we didn't jumper the motherboard to 32mi. The laws of physics apply with radar so there is little that we sailors can do with these things except select one to work with our personal style. Here is some other stuff I've learned. More important than power or range for close in viewing is 'Horizontal Beam Width'. The lower the number, the better the resolution. Our radar has a HBW of 2.2 degrees. That is much less than those lower powered units with smaller radomes. What that does for us is it lets us see the difference between a tug and a tow. Important in Puget Sound. We also find ourselves dodging DUCKs so factor that in too. And we can see the wake of ski boats and airplanes at low altitude. (as long as they aren't stealth). After a lightning strike off the coast of Panama (us too), our unit was in the shop for repairs. I had taken it to the States for repair but had to buy a Sitex with the same size dome but only 2kw of power. The first thing I noticed was that the buoys marking the channel to the Balboa entrance of the Panama Canal melded into one target before running out of buoys! That was scary enough but what really freaked me out was what we saw, or didn't see the next week in the Caribbean. We were sailing off shore past Isla Provedencia with no intention of visiting. It was a clear afternoon. We were looking at it. GPS said we were 17 miles from the near shore. It is 1700 Feet tall. The radar NEVER SAW IT on 24 mile range, or any range. I called the manufacturer when we reached the states and they had NO solution. The tuner was automatic so it's lack of performance could only be attributed to lack of power. We sold it and took a loss. Fortunately Raytheon was able to affect repair at a reasonable cost. A couple of years later, a idiotic navigational error by the skipper, (me) had us forty miles, or more on the wrong side of Grenada from Trinidad. I had used the wrong compass course for over 12 hours. The GPS was down because of a software defect. They were too expensive to carry a backup then. Besides, who needs GPS in the eastern Caribbean, right? Well at that point, all we had was dead reckoning and Radar. Our DR position plot was also based on a guess of 8 1/2 knots speed and a two knot favorable current. I say 'guess' because our knotmeter was down too. We plotted a course for Granada at sunset. (a friend was with me and we were suppose to pick up my wife at the airport the next afternoon) Of course the island was suppose to be now dead to windward (and 'currentward') We powered up! At 0400 local time, the airport of Grenada appeared at 33mi using the offset feature DIRECTLY OFF THE BOW!. The altitude of that airport is only about 20 feet but there it was! Never, have I felt such a sense of relief. You see, I don't study those dead reckoning 'how to' articles. We might have found the island without radar but I wouldn't have wanted to find out. We drove right in to Prickly Bay and met the flight. When my wife stepped out of Customs I acted like I had been hanging out and waiting for a week, HaH! Sure glad I got rid of that Sitex! Some other things to consider, the US Navy's primary means of navigation is radar. Since Pearl Harbor, no active Navy ship, anywhere, by regulation, is allowed to turn OFF its' radar. Also radar is not DR or even GPS. Those methods place your position in a 'cocked hat'. Your observed position on the radar screen is EXACTLY where you are! OK, these are just my personal experiences and opinions. I COULD BE WRONG! Fred Ficarra
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Chuck Wayne
radar
Lots of good points Fred, But remember, like any electronic instrument, radar is subject to numerous potential errors-in particular, your position relative to reflected images is dependent on the timing accuracy of the circuits, and a timing error translates directly to distance. also, you need to watch for false echos and reflections that might be read as expected targets, bouys, etc.-It's always good to have at least 2 sources to compare
Lots of good points Fred, But remember, like any electronic instrument, radar is subject to numerous potential errors-in particular, your position relative to reflected images is dependent on the timing accuracy of the circuits, and a timing error translates directly to distance. also, you need to watch for false echos and reflections that might be read as expected targets, bouys, etc.-It's always good to have at least 2 sources to compare
F
Fred Ficarra
Yep, Chuck,,,and
Chuck, I figured out how important that stuff was about 10 years ago. Also, remember I use the term 'primary' alot. And my manual has no 'prudent mariner' warning. Neither does my buddys new radar manual. (that we have found yet)
Chuck, I figured out how important that stuff was about 10 years ago. Also, remember I use the term 'primary' alot. And my manual has no 'prudent mariner' warning. Neither does my buddys new radar manual. (that we have found yet)
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Tom B.
Radar Antenna on a pole.
I put my radar antenna on a pole on the stern. I plan on taking the mast down for some canal cruising and would like radar operating in the fog.
I put my radar antenna on a pole on the stern. I plan on taking the mast down for some canal cruising and would like radar operating in the fog.
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