I like to sail on Saturday and Sunday mornings, about 10:00 to noon. This typically coincides with the the yacht club's racing schedule. On our small lake, they normally set their marks across the entire sailing area of the lake. These seem to be some pretty serious competitions with fleets representing one designs that include Scows, Thistles, Stars, Lightings ... you name it for small boats and they sail em. Usually there are several fleets on the water at any given time. By the afternoon, they are done, but the wind is often gone by then on sultry summer days and I have things to do, too, so I can't always avoid them. My problem is that I feel like we are always trying to stay out of their way, but it is almost impossible unless we stay on our mooring or motor around the fringes of the lake. I try to pick the gaps and avoid sailing right through the middle of a fleet, but I often feel my ears burning if we happen to cover the front runners clean air. I watch to see if their chute collapses after we duck behind their run when we're on a tack. These boats are typically moving pretty fast either upwind or downwind with their spinnakers flying. Basically, I look for gaps and try to avoid intersecting courses, no matter who has the "stand on" position. But I can't help but feel like the fleet may be bearing down on us and somebody is changing their tactics based on our anticipated position. So how do you racers feel when other sailboats wander into the course?
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Good Question
Scott, First of all, thanks for even noticing. Sometimes I'm out there & people sail by not even realizing that there's a race going on. To answer your question: As a racer, I expect other boats to avoid the race course if it's possible and/or practical for them to do so. As much as I'm a fan of racing, it's unrealisic for a fleet to expect to take up a whole lake during a weekend day. It sounds like you're doing everything you can to avoid the racers. In my book, that's enough. Just my 2 cents... Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
Scott, First of all, thanks for even noticing. Sometimes I'm out there & people sail by not even realizing that there's a race going on. To answer your question: As a racer, I expect other boats to avoid the race course if it's possible and/or practical for them to do so. As much as I'm a fan of racing, it's unrealisic for a fleet to expect to take up a whole lake during a weekend day. It sounds like you're doing everything you can to avoid the racers. In my book, that's enough. Just my 2 cents... Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
Hold your course
If you have are the stand on vessel, just continue what you're doing if it works out for you. We've been watching you for a while, and have probably developed a long-term plan around you, which will cost us little, if anything. Even with stand on status, it might increase your safety to avoid any finish gates or turning marks, if you can tell where they are.If you are burdened, by all means make any necessary course change as soon as you make your decision. The only thing that gets anyone into trouble is last-minute stuff.And if the race committee has set the course in the middle of the channel -- I swear I saw just this in Newport last summer -- then please barge through on starboard tack, we deserve to be mistreated.When I am cruising, I don't really do anything to avoid race boats. Don't be intimidated by racers, just follow the rules of the road and extend the same courtesies that you would to anyone.PaulEscape Artisth336
If you have are the stand on vessel, just continue what you're doing if it works out for you. We've been watching you for a while, and have probably developed a long-term plan around you, which will cost us little, if anything. Even with stand on status, it might increase your safety to avoid any finish gates or turning marks, if you can tell where they are.If you are burdened, by all means make any necessary course change as soon as you make your decision. The only thing that gets anyone into trouble is last-minute stuff.And if the race committee has set the course in the middle of the channel -- I swear I saw just this in Newport last summer -- then please barge through on starboard tack, we deserve to be mistreated.When I am cruising, I don't really do anything to avoid race boats. Don't be intimidated by racers, just follow the rules of the road and extend the same courtesies that you would to anyone.PaulEscape Artisth336
You are doing it right
Paul is correct in saying that you are making the right moves by trying to avoid the main fleet and then just holding your course. Racers are very accustomed to sailing in close quarters, just watch us at the start and around the marks. With that in mind, it may seem that we are purposefully trying to hit you or run you off the course. In reality, we are sailing by the Rules of the Road. If you are stand on, we have adjusted our course with you being the stand on boat in mind. The Rules of the Road state that if you are stand on, you are to hold your course. We may sail very close to you just clearing your bow or dipping under your stern. If you are the stand on boat, you should just hold your course. On the other hand, if the race boat is stand on, we will sail our course and expect those who are give way to alter their course. I sail on Lake Pepin within the Missippi River and of course the barges have the right of way. We just view them as a great equalizer during races. On the other hand, I don't have any patience for boaters who motor into our starting gate or finish line and decide thats a great place to raise their sails or stop and collect their fenders. I have even excerienced a group of fishermen who decided that the area next and around one of our windward marks was a great place to troll with lines for fish. They certainly were surprised as we sailed down on them. They were powering up their large outboards quickly and yelling at us; however, the Rules of the Road clearly gives us stand on status. We certainly were going to adher to the rule that states avoid collision, but we know our boats and our ability to do so.
Paul is correct in saying that you are making the right moves by trying to avoid the main fleet and then just holding your course. Racers are very accustomed to sailing in close quarters, just watch us at the start and around the marks. With that in mind, it may seem that we are purposefully trying to hit you or run you off the course. In reality, we are sailing by the Rules of the Road. If you are stand on, we have adjusted our course with you being the stand on boat in mind. The Rules of the Road state that if you are stand on, you are to hold your course. We may sail very close to you just clearing your bow or dipping under your stern. If you are the stand on boat, you should just hold your course. On the other hand, if the race boat is stand on, we will sail our course and expect those who are give way to alter their course. I sail on Lake Pepin within the Missippi River and of course the barges have the right of way. We just view them as a great equalizer during races. On the other hand, I don't have any patience for boaters who motor into our starting gate or finish line and decide thats a great place to raise their sails or stop and collect their fenders. I have even excerienced a group of fishermen who decided that the area next and around one of our windward marks was a great place to troll with lines for fish. They certainly were surprised as we sailed down on them. They were powering up their large outboards quickly and yelling at us; however, the Rules of the Road clearly gives us stand on status. We certainly were going to adher to the rule that states avoid collision, but we know our boats and our ability to do so.
I'll never forget...
I was at Annapolis Sailing School learning to sail keelboats. A group of us were sailing "Magic", the O'Day 30 made famous in the Kevin Costner movie "No Way Out." We were wing-and-wing on starboard tack, and it was my turn at the helm. A huge Laser fleet had just passed in front of us, but there was one guy bringing up the rear who would cross us -- on port tack, of course. I said, "let's luff up." My instructor set her jaw, and told me "hold your course." I couldn't even look at him as he ducked under us.
I was at Annapolis Sailing School learning to sail keelboats. A group of us were sailing "Magic", the O'Day 30 made famous in the Kevin Costner movie "No Way Out." We were wing-and-wing on starboard tack, and it was my turn at the helm. A huge Laser fleet had just passed in front of us, but there was one guy bringing up the rear who would cross us -- on port tack, of course. I said, "let's luff up." My instructor set her jaw, and told me "hold your course." I couldn't even look at him as he ducked under us.
You were the burdened boat -
If you were sailing wing on wing, you would have been the windward boat. Makes no difference if the Laser coming up was on port or not - you were the windward boat and must stay clear.
If you were sailing wing on wing, you would have been the windward boat. Makes no difference if the Laser coming up was on port or not - you were the windward boat and must stay clear.
You were the burdened boat ??
JimQ26,I believe the starboard boat, in the situation Paul is describing, is stand on over the boat on port tack. Being the windward boat won't apply when the boats are on the opposite tacks.
JimQ26,I believe the starboard boat, in the situation Paul is describing, is stand on over the boat on port tack. Being the windward boat won't apply when the boats are on the opposite tacks.
Are you sure?
If the vessels were appoaching each other as I understood, the the windward boat must keep clear regardless if she was on starboard or port. You mean an O'Day 30 was running downwind and overtook a Laser? My Gawd!!
If the vessels were appoaching each other as I understood, the the windward boat must keep clear regardless if she was on starboard or port. You mean an O'Day 30 was running downwind and overtook a Laser? My Gawd!!
Randy is correct
Starboard tack is always the stand-on (privliged) vessel vs a port tack vessel which is the give way (burdened) vessel. That is unless you are overtaking a vessel in which case the overtaking boat is burdened and must keep clear of the boat being overtaken irrespective of tack (even if a sailboat is overtaking a power boat... or if they are lucky enough a laser...!). The boat being overtaken should hold their course. The windward/leeward rule only applies when sailboats are on the same tack.
Starboard tack is always the stand-on (privliged) vessel vs a port tack vessel which is the give way (burdened) vessel. That is unless you are overtaking a vessel in which case the overtaking boat is burdened and must keep clear of the boat being overtaken irrespective of tack (even if a sailboat is overtaking a power boat... or if they are lucky enough a laser...!). The boat being overtaken should hold their course. The windward/leeward rule only applies when sailboats are on the same tack.
Good Point Mark
For the record a sailboat must give way to a boat trolling and there is no such term as "right of way" as we are discussing it so please stop using it in the context of the COLREGS. It is the responsibility of all vessel operators to avoid any collision.
For the record a sailboat must give way to a boat trolling and there is no such term as "right of way" as we are discussing it so please stop using it in the context of the COLREGS. It is the responsibility of all vessel operators to avoid any collision.
One more opinion
To start: my reference is COLREGS (most recent change is 11/29/03 for those of you A types). I am a cruiser, not a racer. I try to avoid them but believe that I am usually more prudent, careful, and deliberate than a racer - I have my family on my boat. For those of you who swear by RoR, I used to be that way too; until sailing in SD Bay. I have reported a boat to USCG for blatant disregard for rules and for creating a hazardous situation - the boat was a racer "practicing." LAst week Dennis Conner was hit while recreationally sailing by a boat that was give-way. So it goes both way, but my bottom line is that you should alter course in an amount great enough to be easier understood by the helm on the other boat. Scott - good thread.
To start: my reference is COLREGS (most recent change is 11/29/03 for those of you A types). I am a cruiser, not a racer. I try to avoid them but believe that I am usually more prudent, careful, and deliberate than a racer - I have my family on my boat. For those of you who swear by RoR, I used to be that way too; until sailing in SD Bay. I have reported a boat to USCG for blatant disregard for rules and for creating a hazardous situation - the boat was a racer "practicing." LAst week Dennis Conner was hit while recreationally sailing by a boat that was give-way. So it goes both way, but my bottom line is that you should alter course in an amount great enough to be easier understood by the helm on the other boat. Scott - good thread.
A Boat Trolling
A boat trolling is NOT the stand-on vessel, unless it is a fishing vessel. And, according to COLREGS, the only "fishing vessels" that a sailboat must give way to are commercial fishing vessels, and only when they are engaged in fishing. This applies primarily to fishing boats that have their nets out, not to power boaters out trolling. I recently completed my 100ton masters (exept for the physical and drug test). Specifically, there was a question on the OUPV test about a boat trolling (a pleasure boat, not a commercial fishing vessel). The correct answer was that the power boat (the one trolling) was the give way vessel, and the sailboat was the standon.
A boat trolling is NOT the stand-on vessel, unless it is a fishing vessel. And, according to COLREGS, the only "fishing vessels" that a sailboat must give way to are commercial fishing vessels, and only when they are engaged in fishing. This applies primarily to fishing boats that have their nets out, not to power boaters out trolling. I recently completed my 100ton masters (exept for the physical and drug test). Specifically, there was a question on the OUPV test about a boat trolling (a pleasure boat, not a commercial fishing vessel). The correct answer was that the power boat (the one trolling) was the give way vessel, and the sailboat was the standon.
Rule 18 b
A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: (i) a vessel not under command; (ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; and (iii) a vessel engaged in fishing. How do you tell a pleasure fishing boat from a commercial one? I'll keep looking in the ColRegs but if I have been teaching this wrong I'd like to pass it on. Thanks
A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: (i) a vessel not under command; (ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; and (iii) a vessel engaged in fishing. How do you tell a pleasure fishing boat from a commercial one? I'll keep looking in the ColRegs but if I have been teaching this wrong I'd like to pass it on. Thanks
Vessel engaged in fishing
In response to Mark my reference is the COLREGS which I have taught as part of Power and Sail Squadron Course for 17 years. Regarding a vessel engaged in fishing - under Rule 3 - General Definitions - part (d) " The term "Vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines. trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuverability" Rick you quoted 18 b) correctly, however Herb is correct, the above definition indicates that the fishing vessel must be materially restricted in manoeverability - a fishing vessel with nets out cannot easily physically turn away from a collision. A vessel trolling can easily turn - they may tangle their lines but following the collision regs and avoiding a collision is 100% possible as there vessel is not held in place by their trolling lines in the same way as a fisherman with nets. No where does it say that the fisherman must be commercial - it just says that the vessels manoeuverability must be (significantly) restricted. However, since sports fisherman cannot use nets the result is that Reg 18 does not apply to them and defacto only applies to commercial fisherman if they are restricted by their nets (or other fishing apparatus). Finally - being a reasonable person - I tend to steer clear of sports fishermen if it is reasonably possible.
In response to Mark my reference is the COLREGS which I have taught as part of Power and Sail Squadron Course for 17 years. Regarding a vessel engaged in fishing - under Rule 3 - General Definitions - part (d) " The term "Vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines. trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuverability" Rick you quoted 18 b) correctly, however Herb is correct, the above definition indicates that the fishing vessel must be materially restricted in manoeverability - a fishing vessel with nets out cannot easily physically turn away from a collision. A vessel trolling can easily turn - they may tangle their lines but following the collision regs and avoiding a collision is 100% possible as there vessel is not held in place by their trolling lines in the same way as a fisherman with nets. No where does it say that the fisherman must be commercial - it just says that the vessels manoeuverability must be (significantly) restricted. However, since sports fisherman cannot use nets the result is that Reg 18 does not apply to them and defacto only applies to commercial fisherman if they are restricted by their nets (or other fishing apparatus). Finally - being a reasonable person - I tend to steer clear of sports fishermen if it is reasonably possible.
Rules of Racing
Since this thread has evolved into a rules thread here are a couple links that might be usefull. UK Sails Online rules quiz. http://uksailmakers.com/RulesQuiz/ Downloadable IASF's Rules of Racing for those really annal types :>) http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?MenuID=o8f/GX28zoMoD~`RtK/DVn19FR9euJPH/kQBn8BUZWiKuHlPrzSjUP Randy
Since this thread has evolved into a rules thread here are a couple links that might be usefull. UK Sails Online rules quiz. http://uksailmakers.com/RulesQuiz/ Downloadable IASF's Rules of Racing for those really annal types :>) http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?MenuID=o8f/GX28zoMoD~`RtK/DVn19FR9euJPH/kQBn8BUZWiKuHlPrzSjUP Randy
Malcolm
Is there any way I can get in touch with you via e-mail? I have a question for you and I don't want to get a stink started on this site, not with you, just a regulation question.
Is there any way I can get in touch with you via e-mail? I have a question for you and I don't want to get a stink started on this site, not with you, just a regulation question.
You have the right
to jump into the water and grab your line to try to stop your boat before you get a very heafty bill for not giving way to a starboard tack.
to jump into the water and grab your line to try to stop your boat before you get a very heafty bill for not giving way to a starboard tack.
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