I removed the exterior teak to refinish it. It was very grey. I have cleaned it and it is ready to varnish. I have read these forums, sailnets, and Don Casey's "GOB" suggestions. No one has addressed whether you need/should oil the teak before you begin the varnish process. Since varnish seals the wood, should it be treated with oil first? Also I will not be covering the teak, ie: bimini or dodger, from the sun or weather, is varnishing still the best idea? Jeff Jeff
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Teak questions
Oil, varnish, or cetol are your options here. (I guess "going gray" is also an option, but since you have cleaned and sanded, I'm assuming you have ruled that out.) My personal preference is cetol--I find that it lasts longer and is easier to apply and maintain than oil or varnish. But that's just my preference. Do not oil the teak first if you are varnishing. Teak is a naturally oily wood which makes it difficult enough for the varnish to adhere to the wood. For your first coat use a "spit coat" of varnish cut 50% with thinner to soak into the wood and provide a good base coat for the following coats. Sand between coats. Good luck!
Oil, varnish, or cetol are your options here. (I guess "going gray" is also an option, but since you have cleaned and sanded, I'm assuming you have ruled that out.) My personal preference is cetol--I find that it lasts longer and is easier to apply and maintain than oil or varnish. But that's just my preference. Do not oil the teak first if you are varnishing. Teak is a naturally oily wood which makes it difficult enough for the varnish to adhere to the wood. For your first coat use a "spit coat" of varnish cut 50% with thinner to soak into the wood and provide a good base coat for the following coats. Sand between coats. Good luck!
Varnish...
There is no doubt, IMHO, that varnish looks great! There is also no doubt, IMHO, that varnish is about the most difficult of your finishing choices to maintain when exposed to the sun on a continous basis. The real question is how much work are you willing to put in initially, and continuously, to maintain the wonderful look of varnish? While I prefer the look of varnish, I switched to Sikkens Marine Cetol some years ago. This stuff is a good compromise between looks and the work needed to maintain it. I put on three coats initially and then all it takes is one maintenance coat annually. Cetol holds up well against UV rays but varnish does not. And, its much easier to repair if need b. The only problem people have with Cetol is its orangish color. I think its color is a good tradeoff, and one that lets me do more sailing than teak refinishing.
There is no doubt, IMHO, that varnish looks great! There is also no doubt, IMHO, that varnish is about the most difficult of your finishing choices to maintain when exposed to the sun on a continous basis. The real question is how much work are you willing to put in initially, and continuously, to maintain the wonderful look of varnish? While I prefer the look of varnish, I switched to Sikkens Marine Cetol some years ago. This stuff is a good compromise between looks and the work needed to maintain it. I put on three coats initially and then all it takes is one maintenance coat annually. Cetol holds up well against UV rays but varnish does not. And, its much easier to repair if need b. The only problem people have with Cetol is its orangish color. I think its color is a good tradeoff, and one that lets me do more sailing than teak refinishing.
IMHO-Avoid Varnish
I really believe that varnish on boats will follow the way of shellac on furniture...to be used only by restoration purists. Craftsmen are very reluctant to abandon methods and products because they have aquired the skills to produce predictable results consistantly. Yet, not many of us are using a jack plane on boards sawn with a two-man ripsaw in a saw-pit over a power planer and bandsaw anymore even when when doing historically accurate Colonial reproductions. The old alklyd varnishes have taken about three decades to be generally abandonded in favor of one part polueurethanes. These too will, IMHO, give way to superior products. The newer two-part 'varnishes' such as Honey Teak will produce an outstanding finish. A friend who restores boats and I have conducted punishing real-world tests on opposite coasts. We ignored the application instructions in a manner to be expected from the average DIY'er. No sanding between coats, long and short intervals between coats, sun, shade etc. We put samples out in the weather in work areas where they caught the devil. The stuff is mind boggeling. I even set a lit cigarette on one piece with no (zero) scorching. Only have about three years on the samples so far, but no failures and my test samples look as new. The only downside is up-front cost. I beleive it is offset completely by the product's ease of application, looks and durability. Personally, I'd avoid Cetol. It is easy to apply, relatively durable (not as much as these new products though) forgiving, and the looks have much improved recently. It still just brings traffic cones to my mind when I see it. If you favor an oil finish it is hard to beat a high-solids, high quality Tung oil. Oh, and yes, I am a wood butcher...I like to build reproductions and restore and refinish old wood furniture (occasionally as an avocation).
I really believe that varnish on boats will follow the way of shellac on furniture...to be used only by restoration purists. Craftsmen are very reluctant to abandon methods and products because they have aquired the skills to produce predictable results consistantly. Yet, not many of us are using a jack plane on boards sawn with a two-man ripsaw in a saw-pit over a power planer and bandsaw anymore even when when doing historically accurate Colonial reproductions. The old alklyd varnishes have taken about three decades to be generally abandonded in favor of one part polueurethanes. These too will, IMHO, give way to superior products. The newer two-part 'varnishes' such as Honey Teak will produce an outstanding finish. A friend who restores boats and I have conducted punishing real-world tests on opposite coasts. We ignored the application instructions in a manner to be expected from the average DIY'er. No sanding between coats, long and short intervals between coats, sun, shade etc. We put samples out in the weather in work areas where they caught the devil. The stuff is mind boggeling. I even set a lit cigarette on one piece with no (zero) scorching. Only have about three years on the samples so far, but no failures and my test samples look as new. The only downside is up-front cost. I beleive it is offset completely by the product's ease of application, looks and durability. Personally, I'd avoid Cetol. It is easy to apply, relatively durable (not as much as these new products though) forgiving, and the looks have much improved recently. It still just brings traffic cones to my mind when I see it. If you favor an oil finish it is hard to beat a high-solids, high quality Tung oil. Oh, and yes, I am a wood butcher...I like to build reproductions and restore and refinish old wood furniture (occasionally as an avocation).
Cetol is the way to go
I have been using Sikkens' Cetol for the last few years also. Good protection! As someone previously indicated...3 or 4 coats initially, then just a scrubbing and fresh coat yearly after that. The new lighter color that's available now is less orange. You get that overall varnish look (less glossy)without the scraping and sanding every year.
I have been using Sikkens' Cetol for the last few years also. Good protection! As someone previously indicated...3 or 4 coats initially, then just a scrubbing and fresh coat yearly after that. The new lighter color that's available now is less orange. You get that overall varnish look (less glossy)without the scraping and sanding every year.
cetol for me too
I redid our boat with Cetol about 4 years ago. The initial preparation and application took a few weekends. I applied it directly to the freshly cleaned and sanded teak. My yearly maintenance coat can now be done in a day. I clean with soap, water, and lightly scrub with a green scotch bright, wait for it to dry and apply a fresh coat of Cetol. Still looks great. In my opinion, the color is not so bad, yes it has an orange tint but its not construction orange. Also we just have teak trim, table, and cabin doors, not the deck or any really large areas, so maybe this helps lesson the orange look. It is exposed to lots of weather and holds up well. When compared to a boat that has old peeling varnish, it sure is nice to have nicely maintained teak.
I redid our boat with Cetol about 4 years ago. The initial preparation and application took a few weekends. I applied it directly to the freshly cleaned and sanded teak. My yearly maintenance coat can now be done in a day. I clean with soap, water, and lightly scrub with a green scotch bright, wait for it to dry and apply a fresh coat of Cetol. Still looks great. In my opinion, the color is not so bad, yes it has an orange tint but its not construction orange. Also we just have teak trim, table, and cabin doors, not the deck or any really large areas, so maybe this helps lesson the orange look. It is exposed to lots of weather and holds up well. When compared to a boat that has old peeling varnish, it sure is nice to have nicely maintained teak.
Stop you guy's! Didn't you notice? Chris knows
what he is talking about. He has even tested Honey Teak. Chris, TELL US MORE! Where do you obtain it? How much? How is it applied?? You know,,MORE!!!! P.S. Stu, thanks for the link! We'll get you for that!
what he is talking about. He has even tested Honey Teak. Chris, TELL US MORE! Where do you obtain it? How much? How is it applied?? You know,,MORE!!!! P.S. Stu, thanks for the link! We'll get you for that!
Thats funny. I recall Practical Sailor did test
Varnishes and outdoor wood coatings. Honey Teak did well, as did Cetol. They gave a bit of an edge to the Honey Teak, but the reality is its not cheap and because its a 2-part urethane its application is much more involved. The Cetol you can just slap on and seeme to be cheaper. But then the Cetol has a bit more of an orangish tint than the honey teak But, they do mention, no one should still not try and compare the beauty and clarity and looks of a Spar Varnish to that of some of these teak "treatments". Some are very, very nice, but to a purist do not reach the quality of a True Spar Varnish with many coats done well. On a scale of 1-10, a teak "treatment" can get to an 8-9 in looks but they don't reach a 10. But they will last longer for an equivalent amount of coats. The reality is that an extra coat or 2 of varnish is not that much work. The vast majority of the work lies in the preperation. The sanding, the taping, etc. (which has to be done for all coatings) Once thats done, it very little extra work to put on 5 coats of Varnish as opposed to 2-3 and last just as long as the regular 2 part urethanes. But IMHO that 5 coats of Varnish looks so much nicer than anything else and its easy to touch up if you do get a "chip or ding" in it. BTW, I prefer the Z-Spar Captains Varnish, its a good product, but it will darken the wood somewhat, but thats how I like it so that's not a problem to me.
Varnishes and outdoor wood coatings. Honey Teak did well, as did Cetol. They gave a bit of an edge to the Honey Teak, but the reality is its not cheap and because its a 2-part urethane its application is much more involved. The Cetol you can just slap on and seeme to be cheaper. But then the Cetol has a bit more of an orangish tint than the honey teak But, they do mention, no one should still not try and compare the beauty and clarity and looks of a Spar Varnish to that of some of these teak "treatments". Some are very, very nice, but to a purist do not reach the quality of a True Spar Varnish with many coats done well. On a scale of 1-10, a teak "treatment" can get to an 8-9 in looks but they don't reach a 10. But they will last longer for an equivalent amount of coats. The reality is that an extra coat or 2 of varnish is not that much work. The vast majority of the work lies in the preperation. The sanding, the taping, etc. (which has to be done for all coatings) Once thats done, it very little extra work to put on 5 coats of Varnish as opposed to 2-3 and last just as long as the regular 2 part urethanes. But IMHO that 5 coats of Varnish looks so much nicer than anything else and its easy to touch up if you do get a "chip or ding" in it. BTW, I prefer the Z-Spar Captains Varnish, its a good product, but it will darken the wood somewhat, but thats how I like it so that's not a problem to me.
Some quick varnishing notes
I am not a big varnish fan. I do love brightwork, though, and use stuff called Bristol Finish. It is a two-part polyuerethane that looks very much like varnish but tougher. Anyway, if you are varnishing and have the surface prepped, you will be applying about twelve coats to get the best and most durable finish. The first few coats are not going to be full-strenght, but cut to about half-strength with thinners. Always sand between coats with 120 grit after drying for at least 24 hours. Keep your wet edge going and use quality brushes (quality foam brushes or china bristle) to produce a nice smooth finish. When you sand between coats, you are looking to rough up the finish a little to give it some bite and smooth out the uneven spots. Keep each application pretty thin so you don't get sags. Better to have a lot of thin coats than a few thick ones. Do this well and you should get a nice mirror-like finish that will last the whole summer. Of course, every month you should survey your varnish to make sure no cracks or wear are appearing. Every few months, sand the varnish and add a few more coats. You will be the envy of the docks. Good luck, Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
I am not a big varnish fan. I do love brightwork, though, and use stuff called Bristol Finish. It is a two-part polyuerethane that looks very much like varnish but tougher. Anyway, if you are varnishing and have the surface prepped, you will be applying about twelve coats to get the best and most durable finish. The first few coats are not going to be full-strenght, but cut to about half-strength with thinners. Always sand between coats with 120 grit after drying for at least 24 hours. Keep your wet edge going and use quality brushes (quality foam brushes or china bristle) to produce a nice smooth finish. When you sand between coats, you are looking to rough up the finish a little to give it some bite and smooth out the uneven spots. Keep each application pretty thin so you don't get sags. Better to have a lot of thin coats than a few thick ones. Do this well and you should get a nice mirror-like finish that will last the whole summer. Of course, every month you should survey your varnish to make sure no cracks or wear are appearing. Every few months, sand the varnish and add a few more coats. You will be the envy of the docks. Good luck, Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
3M "blue"Masking Tape at Costco
Speaking of teak re-finishing, just noticed that Costco has a 4-roll pack of "blue" Masking Tape 3M #2090 for $10.99. On the 3M web site this is identified as Scotch® Safe-Release™ Painters' Masking Tape for Painted Surfaces & Glass 2090, 1 in x 60 yd The same tape in a retail store is going to be around $6.99/roll (that's EACH) so this is a good saving.
Speaking of teak re-finishing, just noticed that Costco has a 4-roll pack of "blue" Masking Tape 3M #2090 for $10.99. On the 3M web site this is identified as Scotch® Safe-Release™ Painters' Masking Tape for Painted Surfaces & Glass 2090, 1 in x 60 yd The same tape in a retail store is going to be around $6.99/roll (that's EACH) so this is a good saving.
Stu it was supposed to be a quick answer
Now I am questioning the use of varnish over cetol. I have worked with wood since I was a young. Remember, those that started out without a lot of money had to learn to refinish their oun furniture, both staining and recovering. I want to hear Chis' comments regarding honey teak. Also, does the lighter Cetol produce less orange? Jeff
Now I am questioning the use of varnish over cetol. I have worked with wood since I was a young. Remember, those that started out without a lot of money had to learn to refinish their oun furniture, both staining and recovering. I want to hear Chis' comments regarding honey teak. Also, does the lighter Cetol produce less orange? Jeff
Cetol lite
Yes, the light Cetol is more of a tan than an orange. Its not exactly a teak color either but does look like natural wood from your neighbors slip. The main problem I have with Cetol is that I often see it painted over mangy wood for a quick-and-dirty instant 'improvement'. But its a good product for those souls less energetic than Chris.
Yes, the light Cetol is more of a tan than an orange. Its not exactly a teak color either but does look like natural wood from your neighbors slip. The main problem I have with Cetol is that I often see it painted over mangy wood for a quick-and-dirty instant 'improvement'. But its a good product for those souls less energetic than Chris.
Honey Teak
Let me first say that this was the first and only 2ppe varnish that I tested and tried. Others may actually be better (or worse), but the stuff exceeded my expectations and I didn't venture further afield. I don't know P/S's test protocol and mine was highly unscientific. I simply used the product like the guy with five thumbs. This stuff will produce a beutiful, deep and tough finish with basic skills. I almost want to fume at the years invested learning to brush an 'oil-based' varnish without dust, bubbles or brushmarks. I would offer to share some of my test samples, but I'm down to one and I really want to see how long it will last before dying. I am fascinated that it just doesn't seem to degrade at the unfinished edges so far. What I don't like, is that they sell it by the square foot (and price it accordingly). You don't just buy a quart or whatever so you have to rely on their judgment as to coverage. The other thing, is that with traditional finishes, I can adjust the gloss with a little pumice or rottenstone and not have to mess with the formulation. That usually makes touch up easier to match. This stuff is a bit too tough for such subtle measures. I am going to have to make another sample, weather it, chip it with a chisel (cause this stuff ain't easy to chip) and see if the manufacturer's claims hold up on the touch-up question. I just haven't had time to play with it. Last, a personal pique/issue on the comments. All surface hardening clear finishes are commonly called "varnish", regardless of whether they are oil/alklyd, water based, one or two part P/E or whatever. It is just paint without opaque colorants or fillers added. Spar Varnish primarily denotes the addition of UV stabilizers. Penetrating finishes are just that, as they in fact harden. "Treatments" are like the preservatives sold for decks or outdoor furniture. I am old school. Just as in sailing, consistent use of the 'jargon' helps to avoid confusion. My guess, (and folks, that guess is worth exactly what you paid for it) with what I've seen so far, is that with the care usually given to alklyd varnishes and application following the manufacturer's recommendations, I would expect for this product to have double the life of alklyds. i.e. twice as long between touch-up and twice as long between refinishing. My recommendation is to try it in comparison to another varnish that you favor on paired parts with matched exposure and usage. In this way, it will be a real world test of what your teak is exposed to and you will find out what really works best for you in your world. There is nothing wrong with being a traditionalist. I will put a french polish on a piece for someone willing to pay for it. On instruments (i.e. a grand piano) I even think it is superior, but it is laborious. Best Regards, Source site for Honey Teak: http://www.signaturefinish.com/index.php3?topic=Home
Let me first say that this was the first and only 2ppe varnish that I tested and tried. Others may actually be better (or worse), but the stuff exceeded my expectations and I didn't venture further afield. I don't know P/S's test protocol and mine was highly unscientific. I simply used the product like the guy with five thumbs. This stuff will produce a beutiful, deep and tough finish with basic skills. I almost want to fume at the years invested learning to brush an 'oil-based' varnish without dust, bubbles or brushmarks. I would offer to share some of my test samples, but I'm down to one and I really want to see how long it will last before dying. I am fascinated that it just doesn't seem to degrade at the unfinished edges so far. What I don't like, is that they sell it by the square foot (and price it accordingly). You don't just buy a quart or whatever so you have to rely on their judgment as to coverage. The other thing, is that with traditional finishes, I can adjust the gloss with a little pumice or rottenstone and not have to mess with the formulation. That usually makes touch up easier to match. This stuff is a bit too tough for such subtle measures. I am going to have to make another sample, weather it, chip it with a chisel (cause this stuff ain't easy to chip) and see if the manufacturer's claims hold up on the touch-up question. I just haven't had time to play with it. Last, a personal pique/issue on the comments. All surface hardening clear finishes are commonly called "varnish", regardless of whether they are oil/alklyd, water based, one or two part P/E or whatever. It is just paint without opaque colorants or fillers added. Spar Varnish primarily denotes the addition of UV stabilizers. Penetrating finishes are just that, as they in fact harden. "Treatments" are like the preservatives sold for decks or outdoor furniture. I am old school. Just as in sailing, consistent use of the 'jargon' helps to avoid confusion. My guess, (and folks, that guess is worth exactly what you paid for it) with what I've seen so far, is that with the care usually given to alklyd varnishes and application following the manufacturer's recommendations, I would expect for this product to have double the life of alklyds. i.e. twice as long between touch-up and twice as long between refinishing. My recommendation is to try it in comparison to another varnish that you favor on paired parts with matched exposure and usage. In this way, it will be a real world test of what your teak is exposed to and you will find out what really works best for you in your world. There is nothing wrong with being a traditionalist. I will put a french polish on a piece for someone willing to pay for it. On instruments (i.e. a grand piano) I even think it is superior, but it is laborious. Best Regards, Source site for Honey Teak: http://www.signaturefinish.com/index.php3?topic=Home
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