Questions on the first 36.7

[barthrh]

I'm looking at the 36.7 as a "Family boat" that I can also race under PHRF on short and long distance races. I don't think that I'll be able to build enough dedicated crew to race competitive OD.

Things I like about the 36.7 include: Really nicely outfitted for cruising, 3 cabins, a performance boat.

Things that concern me:
1. With the lack of a furler and the traditional storage spot being a cabin, where do you store sails? Are they always lying around?

2. Is this boat too fussy to be a "family boat"; i.e. is it too hard to raise / lower main, rig the jib, etc when you have two young kids and a wife who isn't keen on hard work?

3. Is that 7'2" draft an issue (I'm on Lake Ontario)?

4. Is the cockpit large enough for hanging out / entertaining? For how many?

Are there any other downsides? Upsides?

 

[shemandr]

I don't know this specific boat. But to address your question of sails sitting around taking up room, it is a pet peeve of mine with regard to '70's and '80's boats. If you don't have a furler for the jib, then yes you'll have at least one sail that needs to live somewhere. The said older boats would have three or four jibs, and a spinnaker or two lying around the cabin. Endless moving of them to sleep or eat or to the car and back was a major PITA. When I got my H356 the main was furled in the mast, the jib furled around the headstay and the cabin was for people. Ahhhhhhhhh. No more humping sails around. That was my favorite thing about that boat. Well, maybe the air conditioning.

 

[Jackdaw]

Ah, Where to begin?

First of all, the First 36.7 is almost the ideal boat for a family racer/cruiser. With slightly less room, it is as comfortable as any Oceanus/Hunter/Catalina/etc of the same length, but will simply TORCH them on the racecourse, along with even rating with J35s and Schock 35s that have nowhere near the level of comfort. Kestel is the Lake Superior Mid-distance fleet champion and is the ONLY boat in that fleet that also actively cruises.

We use two suits of sails, a Neil Pryde performance dacron set for cruising, and Doyle Stratus laminates for racing. The cruising sails are on a furler and lazy jacks. We pull both for racing, about a 45 minute job for the crew.

We race in a very competitive fleet with at least one other 36.7. For slightly less serious racing, I would have no problem picking a set of sails that used the furler and the jacks. The boat obviously has lots of tweeky sail controls but at the end of the day you can set-and-forget most and not get into trouble. The fractional rig without runners is easy to set and forget if that's your style for the day. When you want to go all-in and tweek everything, she'll respond to that too.

We double hand the boat for weeks at a time without any issues. It easy for two, much more so for 4.

Don't worry about the deep draft. Get that keel. It goes to wind like a witch.

In the cockpit the traveler is there of course but lots of room for 6+

Reef upwind in 15 knots short handed and all be will happier.

Racing.

Crusing.

Questions? Ask away.

 

[Sandy Stone]

A friend of mine recently bought a 36.7 and he absolutely loves it. It smokes on the racecourse, and the cockpit is very comfortable. For family sailing I think a roller furling jib would be a good idea, and probably also lazyjacks. The one thing he is having trouble getting used to is the saildrive - like most of us, he is accustomed to docking maneuvers with propwash on the rudder helping you turn the boat. The saildrive is located a little too far forward of the rudder for that to be effective. Great boat, just have to practice docking.

 

[Stu Jackson]

A dockmate has had one for going on five years. He singlehands. All the time. I have NO idea what his family life is...

He has a roller furler and lazy jacks with a standard mainsail cover.

Looks like a very nice boat, and Jack's, of course, right with his comments.

ITWMB, I'd get a jib furler right away. Hankin' sails on that big a boat will get tiresome very quickly. I did if for 13 years on our Catalina 25, but wouldn't think it'd be fun on our current boat. I'd bet you could get a good furler for south of $2K, and either modify your existing jib or buy a new or used one.

 

[barthrh]

Ah, Where to begin?
Questions? Ask away.

Thanks to everyone who has responded! Wonderful feedback and now I'm quite certain that this is the right boat.

Furlers: Do you add one to the existing track or add an additional track at the bow (not sure how that would be done). Any recommendations on furler models?

Sails: What size jib would you put on the furler as the cruiser / Tuesday night racer?

Spinnakers: Is anyone doing Asyms / Gennnakers? Adding sprit poles? Most of my experience is on a J105 and I'm quite fond of Asyms. I recently purchased a J22 so I'm building experience on symmetricals. They are certainly more of a hassle for cruising.

Storage: Where do you store your spinnakers? In "cruise" mode, if you have a furling jib you free up storage below; however, where does the chute go? I noticed a trap door beyond the bow cabin. Is that storage?

Issues: Are there any chronic issues / mechanical issues I should be aware of?

Once again, thanks for the very informative responses.

 

[Sandy Stone]

For general hacking around I prefer a high-clewed 135% jib, for visibility, ease of use, and the ability to roll up to 110% or so and still have some kind of sail shape. You could race with that sail, especially if you get a rating credit for an undersized jib, but most racers would prefer a 150% unless you sail in an area with consistently high wind. As far as chutes, it depends a lot on whether the boat already has a pole. If not, I'd go with a gennaker and be done with it. If the boat does have a pole, it comes down to the courses you sail on Tuesday nights. Assyms are generally not that great for windward-leeward, but are so much easier to handle if you do reaching-type courses around fixed marks. But if you sail a 105, you probably already knew that.

 

[Jackdaw]

We have a harken mark 4. It's very nice because the drum is easily removable. We do that for serious races and put on the laminates.

When cruising we only use the 110 jib. The boat is still very quick and is still faster than most boats, even in light air. You will lose time in lighter air racing however. That sail combo is great, and in Europe most race like this because they get IRC credit for the smaller non-overlapping headsail. Under PHRF sadly this in not the case.

The OD class Genoa is a 140. That powers up the boat nicely in light air racing.

Spins racing we use both. For asym we have a very small sprit that attaches to the anchor roller, just enought to not effect rating and clear the bow pulpit.

Cruising only asyms as its only two of us. We race double handed with syms but of course that's more work.

Sails we store either in the vee or stbd stateroom. It's our sail locker with fusions and reading lights!

When we cruise we only have the asym. Easy to store.

 

[Maine Sail]

A good friend and customer has one and I can run down what they likes and could be better list. I was out sailing on her yesterday in 20-30 knots, a really fun boat and what I consider a great value. They run a 110 dacron for cruising but also have a couple full set of race sails.... We cruised with them for 13 days this summer so spent a lot of time listening to the likes & "could be better's".

Keep in mind their primary purchase decision for this boat was a fast boat to race, that could also be cruised. They accept the compromises and much of the could be better points will be addresses pretty easily..

Likes:
Great sailing boat with great sail control
Harken MK-IV furler
Lazy Jacks (a recently added must-do)
Layout down below
Good sized cockpit
Draft - Means really great pointing
Speed - great cruiser / racer
Light air performance
Traveler - One of the best main sheet trimming systems out there
Space - For a relatively narrow boat it has a great use of space
Speed, speed, speed!
Aesthetics - She's a nice looking boat
Ventilation - Excellent ventilation with hatches & opening ports
Ultraleather interior cushions, with kids, makes for easy clean up
Synthetic "teak & holly" sole is very durable

Could Be Happier Items: (many of these items are being addressed over the winter)
Battery Capacity -requires custom work to fit usable cruising capacity
They do not fit in v-berth he is 6' 3"
Aft cabins are used for adults and v-berth for kids
Hull grid-liner makes keeping bilge dry a PITA
Head Access behind center-line table can be a pita if people are sitting to port.
Draft - The boat has too much draft to bring home in the winter something they had planned on. Requires an additional $800-$1000 to get it home in permits and a special trailer with pads tall enough.
Boom height - They are trying to add a dodger for cruising but it is not an easy option with the low boom height
Keel - the nearly vertical keel has been a pot buoy catcher
Galley - while workable the wife wishes it to be just a bit bigger, especially oven (loves sink though)
Lack of a decent sized lazarette means the starboard aft cabin becomes the "garage"..
No lifeline gate - tough for a mooring sailed boat with launch service
Dinghy access off stern/stern ladder a PITA for the kids
Emergency tiller access is a continual tripping hazard behind the wheel
Tim rubs his head on backstay when standing at wheel
Only 14 DC breakers he wishes he had room for expansion
Holding tank is very small and pick up tube broke off on delivery trip from Nova Scotia making pump out impossible.
Anchor handling / bow roller, as in non-existent.
Storage - on the light side
Leaks - A few pesky leaks that have not been identified or found yet

 

[Kings Gambit]

A good friend and customer has one and I can run down what they likes and could be better list. I was out sailing on her yesterday in 20-30 knots, a really fun boat and what I consider a great value. They run a 110 dacron for cruising but also have a couple full set of race sails.... We cruised with them for 13 days this summer so spent a lot of time listenting to the likes & "could be better's"...


Could Be Happier Items: (many of these items are being addressed over the winter)
Battery Capacity -requires custom work to fit usable cruising capacity
They do not fit in v-berth he is 6' 3"
Aft cabins are used for adults and v-berth for kids
Hull grid-liner makes keeping bilge dry a PITA
Head Access behind center-line table can be a pita if people are sitting to port.
Draft - The boat has too much draft to bring home in the winter something they had planned on. Requires an additional $800-$1000 to get it home in permits and a special trailer with pads tall enough.
Boom height - They are trying to add a dodger for cruising but it is not an easy option with the low boom height
Keel - the nearly vertical keel has been a pot buoy catcher
Galley - while workable the wife wishes it to be just a bit bigger, especially oven (loves sink though)
Lack of a decent sized lazarette means the starboard aft cabin becomes the "garage"..
No lifeline gate - tough for a mooring sailed boat with launch service
Dinghy access off stern/stern ladder a PITA for the kids
Emergency tiller access is a continual tripping hazard behind the wheel
Tim rubs his head on backstay when standing at wheel
Only 14 DC breakers he wishes he had room for expansion
Holding tank is very small and pick up tube broke off on delivery trip from Nova Scotia making pump out impossible.
Anchor handling / bow roller, as in non-existent.
Storage - on the light side
Leaks - A few pesky leaks that have not been identified or found yet

Geeze. I'd be thinking about trading it in next season for a Bav38. Have none of those problems; but, we're not real fast either (PHRF105) and we're not so tall. Headroom, headroom, headroom. That's what sells boats, so I hear.

 

[Jackdaw]

A good friend and customer has one and I can run down what they likes and could be better list. I was out sailing on her yesterday in 20-30 knots, a really fun boat and what I consider a great value. They run a 110 dacron for cruising but also have a couple full set of race sails.... We cruised with them for 13 days this summer so spent a lot of time listening to the likes & "could be better's".

Keep in mind their primary purchase decision for this boat was a fast boat to race, that could also be cruised. They accept the compromises and much of the could be better points will be addresses pretty easily..


Could Be Happier Items: (many of these items are being addressed over the winter)
Battery Capacity -requires custom work to fit usable cruising capacity
They do not fit in v-berth he is 6' 3"
Aft cabins are used for adults and v-berth for kids
Hull grid-liner makes keeping bilge dry a PITA
Head Access behind center-line table can be a pita if people are sitting to port.
Draft - The boat has too much draft to bring home in the winter something they had planned on. Requires an additional $800-$1000 to get it home in permits and a special trailer with pads tall enough.
Boom height - They are trying to add a dodger for cruising but it is not an easy option with the low boom height
Keel - the nearly vertical keel has been a pot buoy catcher
Galley - while workable the wife wishes it to be just a bit bigger, especially oven (loves sink though)
Lack of a decent sized lazarette means the starboard aft cabin becomes the "garage"..
No lifeline gate - tough for a mooring sailed boat with launch service
Dinghy access off stern/stern ladder a PITA for the kids
Emergency tiller access is a continual tripping hazard behind the wheel
Tim rubs his head on backstay when standing at wheel
Only 14 DC breakers he wishes he had room for expansion
Holding tank is very small and pick up tube broke off on delivery trip from Nova Scotia making pump out impossible.
Anchor handling / bow roller, as in non-existent.
Storage - on the light side
Leaks - A few pesky leaks that have not been identified or found yet

This a actually GREAT list, and mirrors what we have found. Most if not all reflect an intelligent trade-off on what makes a First a First. Don't like it? Buy an Oceanis! ;^)

We have 3 Group31s and a smaller starter in the battery well. JUST fits, and serves us fine cruising. Up from the 2+1 OEM setup.
The 10 gallon holding tank is a JOKE and needs to be swapped with a 20, which fits just fine.
The grid system is a PITA but helps keep the bottom flat. Get a wet dry vac to help keep dry.
All the berths are small. Every owner I know sleeps port aft. You need to be sub 6 foot to use the vee.

All manageable. The boat is fast. If you are looking for fast, the list for fast 35 footers starts here.

 

[Jackdaw]

Geeze. I'd be thinking about trading it in next season for a Bav38. Have none of those problems; but, we're not real fast either (PHRF105) and we're not so tall. Headroom, headroom, headroom. That's what sells boats, so I hear.

OMG KG, I have to say that is the silliest thing I've read in a long time. These are not problems, but intelligent design choices the designer (Farr) and Beneteau made to make a very quick 35 foot boat that can also be cruised for weeks at a time. A single boat cannot be all thing to all people. Don't like those trade-offs? Buy an Oceanis.

Sorry, but a 38 footer that rates 105 is simply a slow boat, and in a different design world than a boat like this. We've raced against a B38 and simply crushed it, both on real time and handicap. They could not make it go fast. Looking at results it seems to be an common issue with the boat ;^)

 

[Kings Gambit]

I admitted the Bav38 is slow; not the other way around. Lugging around all that teak on deck plus furniture below, etc. However, if they're not "problems" then why could the owners be "happier?" Also, forgive me, hidden leaks are not design compromises.

 

[Jackdaw]

I admitted the Bav38 is slow; not the other way around. Lugging around all that teak on deck plus furniture below, etc. However, if they're not "problems" then why could the owners be "happier?" Also, forgive me, hidden leaks are not design compromises.

I LOVE my boats and there is a long list of things that I would have been happier with if the designer/builder had taken a slightly different path. The B38 must be pretty incredible if there is nothing that you would be 'happier' with. These are PRODUCTION boats for chissake. The only person I know that was totally 'happy' with the way his boat came had it custom built. And frankly he still complained about stuff.

I know about 30 367 owners, and none have leak issues. One owner with one leak hardly makes a problem. The OP is looking for a fast cruiser. Clearly your boat is not it. Normally I enjoy your posts, but am having trouble trying to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this thread.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I LOVE my boats and there is a long list of things that I would have been happier with if the designer/builder had taken a slightly different path. The B38 must be pretty incredible if there is nothing that you would be 'happier' with. These are PRODUCTION boats for chissake. The only person I know that was totally 'happy' with the way his boat came had it custom built. And frankly he still complained about stuff.

I know about 30 367 owners, and none have leak issues. One owner with one leak hardly makes a problem. The OP is looking for a fast cruiser. Clearly your boat is not it. Normally I enjoy your posts, but am having trouble trying to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this thread.

The Beneteau First series is its racing class; so, if somebody buys one of those he's buying principally a race boat, albeit one with relatively comfortable accommondations. I was stand-by crew for a guy with a new 40 First for a few months racing in Sydney Harbor, Australia with the CYCA against, among other classes, Sydney 38's. The boat was new, sails were new, skipper was also new; crew was new--we never finished high the several times I was aboard. Very nice boat, however, and I loved racing on it. Bavaria's racing class yacht was the Match series, including the Match 38--basically a Bav38 but about a ton lighter, which never really made it as a racer/cruiser.

Essentially, Bavaria Yachtbau makes cruising yachts and the bare-boat charter companies of the Caribbean, Med, Australia, and British Columbia buy a lot of 'em, etc. So they're designed to take two or more couples on short cruises of a few days to perhaps a couple of weeks. At that--they EXCEL. And when we're doing that--at the islands for the weekend, or longer, with another couple--my wife and I could not be happier with the boat. Neither of us are happy, however, when having trouble staying ahead of a Catalina 36 that we owe time to, much less challenging the racer/cruisers made by J or Beneteau yachts, even though ours is the "Sport Package" of the Bavaria 38E. I suppose I had a knee-jerk reaction to Maine Sail's list of what would make his friends happier with their 35.7 as too much to overcome to enjoy weeks-long of cruising and still maintain a competitive racing yacht, IMHO. It just speaks to the fact that the boat is first a racer which can be used secondarily for cruising, if you're willing to accept its limitations there. And FYI to the OP, moving stuff around below is a PITA second only to pulling stuff off for racing and then putting it back on again for cruising, ESPECIALLY if ground tackle is involved. So, my contribution--have a realistic assessment of how you're going to use the boat most of the time, and if you want the family along--what activities they will enjoy most in boating.

 

[Jackdaw]

OK that makes more sense. A couple of thought on what you wrote:

Beneteau's Firsts are not really race boats. They are designed, built, marketed, and sold as fast cruisers. They have WAY too much stuff below to be a true race boat. Beneteau simply knows that is where the market is centered. Someone stepping below in the 36.7 would have a hard time telling it is not an Oceanis. We have the same cruiser hardware. Its just that 1000 design choices where made to make the boat sail faster all the time. A second here, a seconds there. It adds up. That's why you can't usually turn a cruiser into a raceboat. Too many little things would have to change. You just can't take off the big anchor and put up a nice suite a sails. No workie.

Like the First 40 (which has won the Sydney-Hobart race several times), the 367 can be raced very effectively. But frankly neither will be as fast over the water as a dedicated race boat, even if they do very often beat them on handicap, which is the name of the game anyway.

For a more racy boat of this size, look at the SunFast 3600. No wood below, open head, no refrigerator, alcohol stove. Race boat, and I can guarantee that no-body is going to convince his skeptical partner that this is (or could be) a cruiser. Actually a VERY nice boat. We sail against one and have never lost a race to it, most of the time beating it on the water. That 2nd part is crew issue on the 3600. I'd love to have a go on it!

Its a time honored tradition that before race you pull off all the heavy cruising stuff. We pull off a ton. Its whats you do to be fast. You don't have to do it. But as you know, that will make you slower.