Was watching a show on History Channel yesterday about a schooner that sunk in Lake Ontario about 130 years ago. Issue was since it appeared in almost pristine condition on the bottom why did it sink? One of the theories was that it got stuck in the ice (the show debunked that theory), but it got me wondering. Do all boats get pulled out of the water in winter, and if so how was this done 100 years ago? Are there ice free harbors on the lakes? Seems that it would probably ice up close to shore but I can't imagine the whole lake freezing. Do the lakes freeze over? May seem like a dumb question, but being a southern boy, winterizing for me involves draining my holding tank and leaving the faucets open.
Question for Great Lakes Sailors
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Yes, it does Freeze!
All the ports on the St. Lawrence Seaway close for the winter due to ice, usually from January to early April. Toronto inner harbour generally ices over in late December and is solid until late March, although a route to the islands is kept open for the few hundred permanent residents by an ice-breaking ferry year round. Lake Erie froze over all the way across a few years ago, but generally there is open water offshore in all the lakes. Everyone with a small boat has to get hauled out or have a bubbler system to keep the water around the boat ice-free. Pictures of Toronto harbour from the 19th century show winter boats frozen in over the winter. This was a well known problem not only in Canada but also northern Europe. So far as I know boats did not sink due to this, I think because they used shoring and other devices to divert the ice pressure. Come up and visit some time, but maybe not from December to March!
All the ports on the St. Lawrence Seaway close for the winter due to ice, usually from January to early April. Toronto inner harbour generally ices over in late December and is solid until late March, although a route to the islands is kept open for the few hundred permanent residents by an ice-breaking ferry year round. Lake Erie froze over all the way across a few years ago, but generally there is open water offshore in all the lakes. Everyone with a small boat has to get hauled out or have a bubbler system to keep the water around the boat ice-free. Pictures of Toronto harbour from the 19th century show winter boats frozen in over the winter. This was a well known problem not only in Canada but also northern Europe. So far as I know boats did not sink due to this, I think because they used shoring and other devices to divert the ice pressure. Come up and visit some time, but maybe not from December to March!
I've sailed The Great Lakes
and lived near the lakes my whole life, 58yrs. Yes all Lakes freeze. That being said, the Lakes don't usually freeze over, ice from one side to the other. sometimes, in some areas they don't freeze at all. The connecting rivers, St. Clair and Detroit, because of the current, seldom freeze. Hard winters with long periods of cold freeze more water. The biggest problem is rhe ice is not static, it moves, alot. It depends on the current, the winds and the tempurature. When we fish through the ice we walk with a sounder pole and constantly check for thin ice. When it comes to laying up the boats most people take the boats out of the water, near shore and tributary rivers usually freeze. Ice can damage boats at and under the water line. Sailboats can sustain more damage than planeing boats due to hull shape. Some people "bubble" thier boats, create water motion for a few feet around the boat. If a boat make it through the winter without ice damage, the owner better check the algae growth in the spring. The haul-out season is also fix-up season, new bottom paint, rudder, keel and instrument inspection. All in all, life is GOOD on the Great Lakes, where, unlike the ocean, we eat the fish, they don't eat us.
and lived near the lakes my whole life, 58yrs. Yes all Lakes freeze. That being said, the Lakes don't usually freeze over, ice from one side to the other. sometimes, in some areas they don't freeze at all. The connecting rivers, St. Clair and Detroit, because of the current, seldom freeze. Hard winters with long periods of cold freeze more water. The biggest problem is rhe ice is not static, it moves, alot. It depends on the current, the winds and the tempurature. When we fish through the ice we walk with a sounder pole and constantly check for thin ice. When it comes to laying up the boats most people take the boats out of the water, near shore and tributary rivers usually freeze. Ice can damage boats at and under the water line. Sailboats can sustain more damage than planeing boats due to hull shape. Some people "bubble" thier boats, create water motion for a few feet around the boat. If a boat make it through the winter without ice damage, the owner better check the algae growth in the spring. The haul-out season is also fix-up season, new bottom paint, rudder, keel and instrument inspection. All in all, life is GOOD on the Great Lakes, where, unlike the ocean, we eat the fish, they don't eat us.
haul it out - and hate it !!
Yea Hugh, We haul them out every winter and get it drained and covered up. there are some ice free harbors, near rivers, ther are also bubblers and swirlers to keep the water moving around the boat but the wind is real bad in winter and it would take a beating at the dock. The only good thing is that my boat is actually only half its real age as mine has been kept indoors every winter, and only in fresh water. It is a long drawn out ordeal twice a year but until we sail ours down to your area, wattaya gonna do? Dean www.blowinganddrifting@yahoo.com
Yea Hugh, We haul them out every winter and get it drained and covered up. there are some ice free harbors, near rivers, ther are also bubblers and swirlers to keep the water moving around the boat but the wind is real bad in winter and it would take a beating at the dock. The only good thing is that my boat is actually only half its real age as mine has been kept indoors every winter, and only in fresh water. It is a long drawn out ordeal twice a year but until we sail ours down to your area, wattaya gonna do? Dean www.blowinganddrifting@yahoo.com
Comparison please
I agree with the above. What is the situation on the East Coast? How far north do you have to go before hauling out in winter is common? How far south do you have to go before winter hauling is the exception?
I agree with the above. What is the situation on the East Coast? How far north do you have to go before hauling out in winter is common? How far south do you have to go before winter hauling is the exception?
Ghost Lake Sailors
Hugh et al, Ghost Lake is a 7 by 2 km lake west of Calgary, Alberta in Canada. The lake has a very active sailing community with many boats in the 18-27 foot range. The season is quite short from early June to mid-October. In mid-winter, the ice thickness averages 18 inches. All boats are hauled out well before freeze-up and the mooring buoys marked for spring retrieval. There are many sailors well north of Ghost Lake on other Alberta lakes. There is also an active ice-yacht racing group for the seriously addicted. Peter
Hugh et al, Ghost Lake is a 7 by 2 km lake west of Calgary, Alberta in Canada. The lake has a very active sailing community with many boats in the 18-27 foot range. The season is quite short from early June to mid-October. In mid-winter, the ice thickness averages 18 inches. All boats are hauled out well before freeze-up and the mooring buoys marked for spring retrieval. There are many sailors well north of Ghost Lake on other Alberta lakes. There is also an active ice-yacht racing group for the seriously addicted. Peter
Chesapeake
I've heard some of the folks on the Northern Chesapeake haul out but I'm not sure if it's the rule. I'd say from NC south hauling for winter would be the exception. I don't know anybody who hauls out. Some folks do a full winterization but most people I know just drain tanks and maybe put some pink stuff in.
I've heard some of the folks on the Northern Chesapeake haul out but I'm not sure if it's the rule. I'd say from NC south hauling for winter would be the exception. I don't know anybody who hauls out. Some folks do a full winterization but most people I know just drain tanks and maybe put some pink stuff in.
100 years ago
Small boats were hauled out, just like now. Ships sailed south, where they could continue to work. Up here there are a whole set of fall chores for house, car, and boat that I never had in San Diego. Strangely, people look forward to the changing seasons. Funny that we never went to the beach in the winter when I lived where it was mild.
Small boats were hauled out, just like now. Ships sailed south, where they could continue to work. Up here there are a whole set of fall chores for house, car, and boat that I never had in San Diego. Strangely, people look forward to the changing seasons. Funny that we never went to the beach in the winter when I lived where it was mild.
lets see if I can answer some things
Lake Erie does freeze over the fastest because it is the shallowest. The western basin freezes over every year. Along the shoreline it freezes over. Sometimes it can freeze over near the shore, and then be gone the next day, if the ice doesn't have time to build up. In the past, it depended on how big the ship was, if it was pulled up or not. Most just tied up in rivers, like the Cuyahoga, Ashtabula, Huron, or Rocky River (I saw pictures as a lot of water sided restaurants have them up for viewing.) The main problem then was the thaw in the Spring, when Ice Jams form. They make a dam and everything backs up. They use to use anything from howitzers to dynamite to CG Icebreakers to break up the jam. And when it goes, nothing, and I mean nothing, stops it. I've seen whole docks, restaurants, cars, you name it, going by. It really is a sight to see. As for the sinking...a few years ago a tall ship came in to Cleveland for the Tall Ship Festival. At the bow, on the dock, was most of the upper forward mast (top gallant maybe?). It was about 50 feet long and 2'to 3' in diameter. HUGE. We asked the Captain what happened and he said this. "I came in from the St. Laurance. I heard of stories of the Great Lakes and Lake Erie, but paid little attention to them, thinking they were myths (same happened in the Chicago to Macinac race with Dennisw Conners a few years ago). I knew nothing of Lake Erie and so assumed it was like the ocean. We sailed a few miles into the lake knowing there was a storm coming. It appeared to me to be less intense than an ocean storm, so I discounted it. We had all but the top sail up and it hit us broadside. Blew out several of the mains in a heartbeat, and the three sails on the bowsprit were toast. And we heard this crack from above and saw what you see on the dock hanging on by the lines and acting as a battering ram was tearing up the rest of the front rigging. In the process of the first winds to hit, we healed over so much that the port rail was completely underwater. I never, ever, saw a boat do that on the ocean in my 11 years as Captain. I ordered everyone to get life jackets on NOW, and for all but a selected few to stay below. We came within a few degrees of going turtle, which would have sunk us in minutes. NOW I know what the stories were about and have a new respect for anyone who sails on this lake." I asked them why he had them stay below and he said it was too dangerous with the rigging being destroyed, and most of the crew was high school or college kids, and most of them were puking anyway and useless. Better to have them below and out of the way. It was a tossup, and I was scared to death to make the wrong decision." We actually prefer the lakes to freeze up. Why? It keeps the water from evaporating and allows it to build up in height, which means the 600 and 700 footers can carry more cargo at the same cost, which increases profits and lowers our costs. It also stops the notorious Lake Effect snow machine. See, the water evaporates and the moisture heavy air blows over the land and when it hits the high elevations it falls. Last year on this date in Chagrin (just east of Cleveland) they had 44" of snow in one falling, 48" for the day (which set a record) and 60"+ for the storm. Yes it caved in roofs till people shoveled them off. There are only three places on Earth that get Lake Effect snow, and Lake Erie is one of them. So the next time you see Buffalo getting 20"+ you know why. Cool things. On a still winter night, with the lake frozen in spots or all over, you can walk on the ice (they drive cars on it to ice fish on the Western Basin. The ice gets several inches thick. I think 4 inches it the limit for cars to safely go over it.) The ice is a live thing. It moves, shifts, cracks, and in the stillness, you can hear it. Spooky. Maybe thats why they call it Lake Eerie. We scrape the snow off the ice at the marina and look for lost stuff from the summer that dropped overboard. The water settles and gets clear and you can see the bottom at 8'. We have read the labels on beer bottles. If we find something retrievable, we bore a hole using a post hole digger, or just chip it out, then try to retrieve the object. The ice builds up these huge walls of ice as the winds push the flows to more solid, unmoveable ice or the shoreline. There is name for these mountains of ice and they can be near shore or out there miles from shore. In the spring, if you are careful you can motor or sail through these leftover "icebergs" and see how far down they go. Very cool, but dangerous. Lastly, look up DURECHO. We have them a lot here. They are sideways tornadoes and can occur year round. In 1911 they had one in November that sunk something like 100 ships on the Great Lakes. Winds are as high as hurricane force, only for some reason they don't call them hurricanes. There is a book out on one called "White Storm" or "White Squall" subtitled "the storm of the century." I saw the one on July 4th. It killed three people and sunk a lot of boats and shut down Cleveland for days because of the thousands of fallen trees. ANd Toledo got it worse then we did!! People were running their powerboats onto the shore, where ever they found it (Lake Erie is mostly cliffs up to 80' high. Hardly anyone has sand beaches because they wash away so fast. A few years ago they imported sand from Minnesota, tons and tons of it, to restore the beach after just one bad winder took it from 100 feet to about 10. The next year, most of the new stuff was gone too.
Lake Erie does freeze over the fastest because it is the shallowest. The western basin freezes over every year. Along the shoreline it freezes over. Sometimes it can freeze over near the shore, and then be gone the next day, if the ice doesn't have time to build up. In the past, it depended on how big the ship was, if it was pulled up or not. Most just tied up in rivers, like the Cuyahoga, Ashtabula, Huron, or Rocky River (I saw pictures as a lot of water sided restaurants have them up for viewing.) The main problem then was the thaw in the Spring, when Ice Jams form. They make a dam and everything backs up. They use to use anything from howitzers to dynamite to CG Icebreakers to break up the jam. And when it goes, nothing, and I mean nothing, stops it. I've seen whole docks, restaurants, cars, you name it, going by. It really is a sight to see. As for the sinking...a few years ago a tall ship came in to Cleveland for the Tall Ship Festival. At the bow, on the dock, was most of the upper forward mast (top gallant maybe?). It was about 50 feet long and 2'to 3' in diameter. HUGE. We asked the Captain what happened and he said this. "I came in from the St. Laurance. I heard of stories of the Great Lakes and Lake Erie, but paid little attention to them, thinking they were myths (same happened in the Chicago to Macinac race with Dennisw Conners a few years ago). I knew nothing of Lake Erie and so assumed it was like the ocean. We sailed a few miles into the lake knowing there was a storm coming. It appeared to me to be less intense than an ocean storm, so I discounted it. We had all but the top sail up and it hit us broadside. Blew out several of the mains in a heartbeat, and the three sails on the bowsprit were toast. And we heard this crack from above and saw what you see on the dock hanging on by the lines and acting as a battering ram was tearing up the rest of the front rigging. In the process of the first winds to hit, we healed over so much that the port rail was completely underwater. I never, ever, saw a boat do that on the ocean in my 11 years as Captain. I ordered everyone to get life jackets on NOW, and for all but a selected few to stay below. We came within a few degrees of going turtle, which would have sunk us in minutes. NOW I know what the stories were about and have a new respect for anyone who sails on this lake." I asked them why he had them stay below and he said it was too dangerous with the rigging being destroyed, and most of the crew was high school or college kids, and most of them were puking anyway and useless. Better to have them below and out of the way. It was a tossup, and I was scared to death to make the wrong decision." We actually prefer the lakes to freeze up. Why? It keeps the water from evaporating and allows it to build up in height, which means the 600 and 700 footers can carry more cargo at the same cost, which increases profits and lowers our costs. It also stops the notorious Lake Effect snow machine. See, the water evaporates and the moisture heavy air blows over the land and when it hits the high elevations it falls. Last year on this date in Chagrin (just east of Cleveland) they had 44" of snow in one falling, 48" for the day (which set a record) and 60"+ for the storm. Yes it caved in roofs till people shoveled them off. There are only three places on Earth that get Lake Effect snow, and Lake Erie is one of them. So the next time you see Buffalo getting 20"+ you know why. Cool things. On a still winter night, with the lake frozen in spots or all over, you can walk on the ice (they drive cars on it to ice fish on the Western Basin. The ice gets several inches thick. I think 4 inches it the limit for cars to safely go over it.) The ice is a live thing. It moves, shifts, cracks, and in the stillness, you can hear it. Spooky. Maybe thats why they call it Lake Eerie. We scrape the snow off the ice at the marina and look for lost stuff from the summer that dropped overboard. The water settles and gets clear and you can see the bottom at 8'. We have read the labels on beer bottles. If we find something retrievable, we bore a hole using a post hole digger, or just chip it out, then try to retrieve the object. The ice builds up these huge walls of ice as the winds push the flows to more solid, unmoveable ice or the shoreline. There is name for these mountains of ice and they can be near shore or out there miles from shore. In the spring, if you are careful you can motor or sail through these leftover "icebergs" and see how far down they go. Very cool, but dangerous. Lastly, look up DURECHO. We have them a lot here. They are sideways tornadoes and can occur year round. In 1911 they had one in November that sunk something like 100 ships on the Great Lakes. Winds are as high as hurricane force, only for some reason they don't call them hurricanes. There is a book out on one called "White Storm" or "White Squall" subtitled "the storm of the century." I saw the one on July 4th. It killed three people and sunk a lot of boats and shut down Cleveland for days because of the thousands of fallen trees. ANd Toledo got it worse then we did!! People were running their powerboats onto the shore, where ever they found it (Lake Erie is mostly cliffs up to 80' high. Hardly anyone has sand beaches because they wash away so fast. A few years ago they imported sand from Minnesota, tons and tons of it, to restore the beach after just one bad winder took it from 100 feet to about 10. The next year, most of the new stuff was gone too.
Tahoe doesnt freeze.....
DMC wrote: "Yes all Lakes freeze." Perhaps he meant all the great lakes can freeze. Due to it's depth, the cold water at the surface is always sinking and the warmer water below is rising. The convection keeps Lake Tahoe from freezing. Interesting, huh? Tim
DMC wrote: "Yes all Lakes freeze." Perhaps he meant all the great lakes can freeze. Due to it's depth, the cold water at the surface is always sinking and the warmer water below is rising. The convection keeps Lake Tahoe from freezing. Interesting, huh? Tim
Winterizing ...
Some of the marinas on the Hudson River have winter storage in the slip, if the marina is in a sheltered cove and the water is kept open with bubblers. The Hudson has massive ice flows that will extend even into New York Harbor during cold periods. In New Jersey, Barnegat Bay can freeze over and so does Raritan Bay. A few years ago, there were 2 winters in a row where ferry service from Atlantic Highlands to Manhatten was closed down in January because of the ice in the bay. If you have your boat in the water, you still have to winterize; otherwise, your engine block can easily freeze solid when the interior of the boat gets below the freezing mark. Larger boats with heating systems can remain remain functional, I'm sure. One interesting historical tidbit I heard about Lake George in the Adirondacks ... during the Revolutionary war when real men did real labor, the American Navy actually had ocean going ships in Lake George to fight the British and protect the territory. They would actually sail the ships to the southern end of Lake Champlain and disassemble the ships to be carried overland near Fort Ticonderoga to the northern end of Lake George where they re-built them. I suppose that is how they got ships into Lake Champlain in those days, too (up the St. Lawrence and then a short overland portage). Anyway, when the first winter was approaching and they knew that the ships would be vulnerable to British attack when the lake froze solid, they came up with a plan where they deliberately sunk the ships and planned on raising them in the spring. I don't think it was a successful plan and there may be a few still at the bottom of the lake I think I was told. They did this at the far southern end in water that is about 50' deep I think. It sounded like they had a fairly solid plan for raising the ships but something proved too difficult to overcome.
Some of the marinas on the Hudson River have winter storage in the slip, if the marina is in a sheltered cove and the water is kept open with bubblers. The Hudson has massive ice flows that will extend even into New York Harbor during cold periods. In New Jersey, Barnegat Bay can freeze over and so does Raritan Bay. A few years ago, there were 2 winters in a row where ferry service from Atlantic Highlands to Manhatten was closed down in January because of the ice in the bay. If you have your boat in the water, you still have to winterize; otherwise, your engine block can easily freeze solid when the interior of the boat gets below the freezing mark. Larger boats with heating systems can remain remain functional, I'm sure. One interesting historical tidbit I heard about Lake George in the Adirondacks ... during the Revolutionary war when real men did real labor, the American Navy actually had ocean going ships in Lake George to fight the British and protect the territory. They would actually sail the ships to the southern end of Lake Champlain and disassemble the ships to be carried overland near Fort Ticonderoga to the northern end of Lake George where they re-built them. I suppose that is how they got ships into Lake Champlain in those days, too (up the St. Lawrence and then a short overland portage). Anyway, when the first winter was approaching and they knew that the ships would be vulnerable to British attack when the lake froze solid, they came up with a plan where they deliberately sunk the ships and planned on raising them in the spring. I don't think it was a successful plan and there may be a few still at the bottom of the lake I think I was told. They did this at the far southern end in water that is about 50' deep I think. It sounded like they had a fairly solid plan for raising the ships but something proved too difficult to overcome.
Lake Erie Winter Lay Up
Hugh - Also, I'm sure it's the same on most of the Great Lakes, but Buffalo has a shipping canal that has no current, no tide, etc., so ships would hunker down in the canal all winter. The ice would not crush them because there was no current to move the ice, and the canal is fairly protected from winds (at least that's what I've read). I also have a book that shows small boats (less than 30') hauled onto the shore and set upright with large wooden poles. Unfortunately, lake freighters no longer lay up here in Buffalo. At one time, this city was a busy port. Hugh - Also, check out www.boatnerd.com. That site shows ship traffic on the Great Lakes, and provides some insight into the shipping life on the Great lakes.
Hugh - Also, I'm sure it's the same on most of the Great Lakes, but Buffalo has a shipping canal that has no current, no tide, etc., so ships would hunker down in the canal all winter. The ice would not crush them because there was no current to move the ice, and the canal is fairly protected from winds (at least that's what I've read). I also have a book that shows small boats (less than 30') hauled onto the shore and set upright with large wooden poles. Unfortunately, lake freighters no longer lay up here in Buffalo. At one time, this city was a busy port. Hugh - Also, check out www.boatnerd.com. That site shows ship traffic on the Great Lakes, and provides some insight into the shipping life on the Great lakes.
Letterman
Letterman, in another post you said that you live aboard year round. Do you use circulators to keep the ice at bay? Are you at CYC, EYC or elswhere?
Letterman, in another post you said that you live aboard year round. Do you use circulators to keep the ice at bay? Are you at CYC, EYC or elswhere?
winterizing here
means we throw an extra blanket in the boat just in case ;d p.s. we don't put studded tires on our trailers either
means we throw an extra blanket in the boat just in case ;d p.s. we don't put studded tires on our trailers either
I was on the river
We had a place (since sold for condo development) up-river where a lot of boaters stayed through the winter. At that point, the steel mill's waste water (actually cleaned purer than drinking water) kept the river from freezing to Collision Bend most of the year, and at Collision Bend, if it did freeze, the ice there was minimal in thickness. Many boaters stayed along the wall past Collision Bend with no problems, even though that area freezes. Nobody had any bubblers.
We had a place (since sold for condo development) up-river where a lot of boaters stayed through the winter. At that point, the steel mill's waste water (actually cleaned purer than drinking water) kept the river from freezing to Collision Bend most of the year, and at Collision Bend, if it did freeze, the ice there was minimal in thickness. Many boaters stayed along the wall past Collision Bend with no problems, even though that area freezes. Nobody had any bubblers.
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