The survey report on the Hunter 30 (91) I just bought pointed out that the holding tank and galley though hulls had PVC fittings (quite nicely) fitted to them. It sternly advised that PVC fittings are unsuitable for use below the waterline. They are I believe, Hunter standard fit. My house insurers (Allstate - $360) wanted these fixed before they would cover even the trip home. As I couldn't fix these in time, I insured with Boat US ($680) just to get me home and for the first year. Now I'm looking at these fittings and wonder if I should replace them (bit of a pain as the galley one is buried under a cupboard floor I'd have to cut out.. Nigel Calder's book says PVC fittings are ok. What is the reality? I'd like to move to Allstate next year to save the $$s but they will presumably want the PVC out.
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I'm surprised that
Calder said PVC fittings are ok. Are you sure they are not Marelon which is an acceptable substitute for bronze thru-hulls? PVC is not acceptable.
Calder said PVC fittings are ok. Are you sure they are not Marelon which is an acceptable substitute for bronze thru-hulls? PVC is not acceptable.
Yes - "PVC schedule 40
(whatever that is) is good for any plumbing job on board.."(this is in the heads section (pp302-303) Boatowners Mech and Elec Manual. ISBN 0-7136-3251-8 My Hunter is full of the stuff (anyone elses'?)
(whatever that is) is good for any plumbing job on board.."(this is in the heads section (pp302-303) Boatowners Mech and Elec Manual. ISBN 0-7136-3251-8 My Hunter is full of the stuff (anyone elses'?)
Your surveyor is right...
I think you need to read a little further in Calder, Pat. PVC can be used on a boat, but only for plumbing (and then it's only recommended for long straight runs), and only if it's "soft-coupled" to anything rigid--including a thru-hull--with enough hose to cushion shock. But through-hulls aren't interior plumbing...they're exposed to the environment outside the boat. Schedule 40 has no UV inhibitors, plus it gets VERY brittle below 40 degrees...it'll literally shatter if you rap it hard. It's not acceptable for below-waterline thru-hull use, and marginal for above waterline. It may be PITA to get to the one in the galley to replace it, but you need access to it anyway, 'cuz below waterline seacocks should be left closed when you're away from the boat....plus, hose connections--especially below waterline--should be inspected regularly and reclamped/recaulked as necessary. If you have to cut out the sole to get to it, unless you do, how would you ever be able to close it if the boat started taking on water through it? I'm kinda surprised your surveyor didn't comment on that, 'cuz ABCY standards call for immediate access to ALL seacocks for just the reasons I've described. And btw, all below waterline hose connections should also be double clamped, so whether they are now or not, be sure to do it.
I think you need to read a little further in Calder, Pat. PVC can be used on a boat, but only for plumbing (and then it's only recommended for long straight runs), and only if it's "soft-coupled" to anything rigid--including a thru-hull--with enough hose to cushion shock. But through-hulls aren't interior plumbing...they're exposed to the environment outside the boat. Schedule 40 has no UV inhibitors, plus it gets VERY brittle below 40 degrees...it'll literally shatter if you rap it hard. It's not acceptable for below-waterline thru-hull use, and marginal for above waterline. It may be PITA to get to the one in the galley to replace it, but you need access to it anyway, 'cuz below waterline seacocks should be left closed when you're away from the boat....plus, hose connections--especially below waterline--should be inspected regularly and reclamped/recaulked as necessary. If you have to cut out the sole to get to it, unless you do, how would you ever be able to close it if the boat started taking on water through it? I'm kinda surprised your surveyor didn't comment on that, 'cuz ABCY standards call for immediate access to ALL seacocks for just the reasons I've described. And btw, all below waterline hose connections should also be double clamped, so whether they are now or not, be sure to do it.
Boat Insurance
Pat The $$ you think you'll save by going from BOATUS to Allstate will really cramp your style if and when you have a boating related insurance claim. Allstate knows diddly about boats and have been reported to delay claims for amazingly bizzarre reasons (like what's a boat?), while BoatUS has an outstanding record for fairness when it comes to claims. The latest east coast hurricane is but one example. Good luck with your plastic pipes, Peggie's right. Stu
Pat The $$ you think you'll save by going from BOATUS to Allstate will really cramp your style if and when you have a boating related insurance claim. Allstate knows diddly about boats and have been reported to delay claims for amazingly bizzarre reasons (like what's a boat?), while BoatUS has an outstanding record for fairness when it comes to claims. The latest east coast hurricane is but one example. Good luck with your plastic pipes, Peggie's right. Stu
Really---PVC?
First, I'd call Hunter. I had the same year Vision 32 and there was NO PVC at the seacocks. I'd find it really odd that they would not use it on mine, but would on yours. There were hose barbs that were marine plastic (Marelon), as there is on my 1994 40.5. Could that be what he's referring to? They are not PVC. They work well. Some folks get all crazy about mixing the plastic and bronze parts, but there is a real problem with nipples and barbs made of brass which can turn to swiss cheese really fast. Unless it has been modified, I would be surprised if it were PVC, but i'd call Hunter to find out and not guess. Let us know what you find out. Rick D.
First, I'd call Hunter. I had the same year Vision 32 and there was NO PVC at the seacocks. I'd find it really odd that they would not use it on mine, but would on yours. There were hose barbs that were marine plastic (Marelon), as there is on my 1994 40.5. Could that be what he's referring to? They are not PVC. They work well. Some folks get all crazy about mixing the plastic and bronze parts, but there is a real problem with nipples and barbs made of brass which can turn to swiss cheese really fast. Unless it has been modified, I would be surprised if it were PVC, but i'd call Hunter to find out and not guess. Let us know what you find out. Rick D.
Stu, isn't that a little extreme?
You don't work for Boat US do you?
I've used Allstate off and on over the years and found them to be reputable and honest. But we're talking about insurance companies here! The subject has been beaten to death.
You don't work for Boat US do you?
I've used Allstate off and on over the years and found them to be reputable and honest. But we're talking about insurance companies here! The subject has been beaten to death.I agree
Fred You're right. Beaten to death. But what's the conclusion, save a few bucks or not get your claim filled? OK, OK, let's not start all over. No I don't work for them. Point me to an archive !!!!! Have a nice weekend. Gee, shouldn't we be sailing? I'm going tomorrow, hadda work today. Stu
Fred You're right. Beaten to death. But what's the conclusion, save a few bucks or not get your claim filled? OK, OK, let's not start all over. No I don't work for them. Point me to an archive
!!!!! Have a nice weekend. Gee, shouldn't we be sailing? I'm going tomorrow, hadda work today. StuPVC? No way!
Unless the previous owner was some kind of 'hardware store engineer' I seriuosly doubt the thruhulls are made of PVC. While PVC is good for some things, (we use it all the time for underground electrical conduit) it would definitely not find a home on MY boat. It's just not suitable (IMHO) for onboard marine applications. BTW, 'Schedule 40' refers to the wall thickness of the pipe, 'Schedule 120' is extremely thin wall (cheap guys sprinkler pipe), Schedule 40 is medium wall thickness and the most common, Schedule 80 is heavy wall and substantually stronger. Betcha dollars to donuts those 'PVC' fittings are actually Marelon. Whole 'nother polymer, good stuff.
Unless the previous owner was some kind of 'hardware store engineer' I seriuosly doubt the thruhulls are made of PVC. While PVC is good for some things, (we use it all the time for underground electrical conduit) it would definitely not find a home on MY boat. It's just not suitable (IMHO) for onboard marine applications. BTW, 'Schedule 40' refers to the wall thickness of the pipe, 'Schedule 120' is extremely thin wall (cheap guys sprinkler pipe), Schedule 40 is medium wall thickness and the most common, Schedule 80 is heavy wall and substantually stronger. Betcha dollars to donuts those 'PVC' fittings are actually Marelon. Whole 'nother polymer, good stuff.
Are you sure the Thru-Hulls are PVC ?
I find that VERY hard to believe. But if I read more closely (I think) just the barbed hose fittings are PVC on top of the seacocks (things that shut off water flow into and out of boat). Much different issue. Secondly I would call your surveyor and ask if he knows what Marelon is? And then ask if he was SURE that those hose fitting were PVC or Marelon (Big Difference -- though I would want Marelon with Marelon thru-hull and Bronze with Bronze through -- it just makes all this easier). I kind of find it hard for Hunter or anyone in the '90's to use PVC below the waterline. If you feel uncomfortable or not sure of yourself when talking to your surveyor then get someone from your marina or boating freind that really knows his stuff and ask him if he can tell the difference between PVC and Marelon (I can) to verify it for you. If it turns out to be Marelon then have the discussion with your surveyor where he might need to redo his survey report. If it is PVC, then, while its not the best thing (PVC hose barbs), its not the end of the world and very easy to replace. You can even do this with the boat in the water. Just shut off the seacock, remove hose and clamps (hopefully double clamped) and unscrew and replace the barbed hose fittings with new ones. If your Seacock is Bronze, just replace them with bronze and some teflon tape. after you do that replace hose double clamp and check for leaks. The links show you to the bronze hose barbs at West Marine. (ps, I think the Calder reference was that PVC is ok for things like fresh water systems, NOT anything that is directly connected to the deep blue sea -- cause if this PVC fitting on the through-hull breaks your boat will sink if not caught in time. Who cares if a fitting on from your fresh water tank breaks)
I find that VERY hard to believe. But if I read more closely (I think) just the barbed hose fittings are PVC on top of the seacocks (things that shut off water flow into and out of boat). Much different issue. Secondly I would call your surveyor and ask if he knows what Marelon is? And then ask if he was SURE that those hose fitting were PVC or Marelon (Big Difference -- though I would want Marelon with Marelon thru-hull and Bronze with Bronze through -- it just makes all this easier). I kind of find it hard for Hunter or anyone in the '90's to use PVC below the waterline. If you feel uncomfortable or not sure of yourself when talking to your surveyor then get someone from your marina or boating freind that really knows his stuff and ask him if he can tell the difference between PVC and Marelon (I can) to verify it for you. If it turns out to be Marelon then have the discussion with your surveyor where he might need to redo his survey report. If it is PVC, then, while its not the best thing (PVC hose barbs), its not the end of the world and very easy to replace. You can even do this with the boat in the water. Just shut off the seacock, remove hose and clamps (hopefully double clamped) and unscrew and replace the barbed hose fittings with new ones. If your Seacock is Bronze, just replace them with bronze and some teflon tape. after you do that replace hose double clamp and check for leaks. The links show you to the bronze hose barbs at West Marine. (ps, I think the Calder reference was that PVC is ok for things like fresh water systems, NOT anything that is directly connected to the deep blue sea -- cause if this PVC fitting on the through-hull breaks your boat will sink if not caught in time. Who cares if a fitting on from your fresh water tank breaks)
Peggy - not PVC thru-hulls
"....holding tank and galley though hulls had PVC fittings (quite nicely) fitted to them.." The thru hulls are bronze but the 90deg elbows screwed directly to them are (according to the surveyor) white PVC. I find it odd that these would be fitted by Hunter and will take a closer look to see if they could be Marelon. How do you identify Marelon easily?
"....holding tank and galley though hulls had PVC fittings (quite nicely) fitted to them.." The thru hulls are bronze but the 90deg elbows screwed directly to them are (according to the surveyor) white PVC. I find it odd that these would be fitted by Hunter and will take a closer look to see if they could be Marelon. How do you identify Marelon easily?
Patrick, I have only
seen Marelon with black as the color. BTW everything from the thru-hull to the valve to the nipple is supposed to be of the same material.
seen Marelon with black as the color. BTW everything from the thru-hull to the valve to the nipple is supposed to be of the same material.
Yup definitely PVC :-(
I've just crawled in with a flashlight and mirror. Definitely PVC elbow attached to bronze valves. I have some work to do. I might wait until I haul out next and do a good job on the thru-hulls and their pads as well. I will put a post up specific to this boat on the Hunter forum to see if any other owners have the problem. Has anyone had direct experience of failed PVC fittings? I've done a lot of PVC plumbing on hot water spas that vibrate a lot and haven't seen a failure yet. (In fact I think the stuff is pretty well indestructible if glue/welded properly) I guess its the threaded bit on the PVC where it screws onto the valve that fails? Thanks for all the advice.
I've just crawled in with a flashlight and mirror. Definitely PVC elbow attached to bronze valves. I have some work to do. I might wait until I haul out next and do a good job on the thru-hulls and their pads as well. I will put a post up specific to this boat on the Hunter forum to see if any other owners have the problem. Has anyone had direct experience of failed PVC fittings? I've done a lot of PVC plumbing on hot water spas that vibrate a lot and haven't seen a failure yet. (In fact I think the stuff is pretty well indestructible if glue/welded properly) I guess its the threaded bit on the PVC where it screws onto the valve that fails? Thanks for all the advice.
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