Pulsing headsail

Status
Not open for further replies.

Todd

.
Sep 28, 2008
10
Hunter 27 89-94 Ithaca, NY
Greetings! I have a 1990 Hunter 27 which I purchased last fall. This is my first larger >18ft sailboat. Question is:

When I am beating upwind I get a fairly strong pulsing in the headsail and forestay. It is a fractional rig so the top of the mast is also vibrating more than I am used to. It has RF. When I tuned the rig this spring a took some of the rake out of the mast - it looked excessive to me. She exhibits no weather helm to speak of and sails well enough on all points of sail but in a strong wind I get this pulse/vibration when beating. Any thoughts here would be gretaly appreciated.

Todd
 
Jun 7, 2004
383
Schock 35 Seattle
Suggest you check in with Hunter and get their specs. for the rig. You may have loosened something more than you should have.
 
B

brucecaptain

Retune it...

Something's out of balance. Go around the rig like you'd torque headbolts on the engine.

Greetings! I have a 1990 Hunter 27 which I purchased last fall. This is my first larger >18ft sailboat. Question is:

When I am beating upwind I get a fairly strong pulsing in the headsail and forestay. It is a fractional rig so the top of the mast is also vibrating more than I am used to. It has RF. When I tuned the rig this spring a took some of the rake out of the mast - it looked excessive to me. She exhibits no weather helm to speak of and sails well enough on all points of sail but in a strong wind I get this pulse/vibration when beating. Any thoughts here would be gretaly appreciated.

Todd
 
Apr 5, 2009
3,079
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Can you tell where the vibration is being generated? One likely source is leach flutter. When the training edge of the sail is fluttering it will shake the whole rig. If your sail has a leach line, try tightening it until the flutter stops.
 
J

Johnt1594

headstay

I have some head stay pumping on my 2000 H340 when beating but only when I am too close to the wind. If you bear off a bit the sail settles down. My boat has the B&R rig with no backstay. There is some loseness to the forestay on these rigs that is hard to tune out.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,048
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Dunno, Todd.. Pulsing is the luff flapping? or the leech flapping? Maybe try bringing sheet lead forward and tightening the luff tension line at the back of the sail? Headstay tension? Halyard tesnion?
 
C

Captainjimbolio

Headstay vibration

I have a Capri 26 and the mast rake is essential to proper tuning. We have a user group that frequently discuss issues such as this. I have found that while sailing, my luff will flog excessively unless I have the sheet (via the genoa car placement) moved forward. Rule of thumb, the closer to the wind, the further forward to move your sheet car. If you don't have moveable sheet leads, try increasing the tension on the leech and sheeting in a little.

Sounds mostly like your shrouds/stays are not tensioned correctly.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Probably/possibly 'an induced harmonic vibration' .... a certain member of the mast or rigging system being excited at its 'natural frequency of oscilation', easy to develop and easy to remedy. Second possibility, as another poster listed is a loose leech (control line) on a sail or improperly adjusted jib fairlead car.

Just like a violin string, any part of the rig can start vibrating, sometimes violently, if the natural frequency of vibration for that 'part' is being 'induced' to vibrate at that certain resonant frequency. This can include rigging wire as well as the mast ... and they can at that natural frequency begin to 'pump' at a rate to match the natural frequency of the component. As stated above, sometimes a violin or other stringed musical instrument will sometimes 'play' (apparently all by itself) an untouched string if the string is in resonance with another being played .... resonant induced harmonic vibration.

The natural frequency is dependent of the 'stiffness' or tension of the part vibrating. Generally if a naturally occurring oscillation occurs in a shroud or wire ... simply change the tension in the shroud - shifts the natural frequency to a different 'pitch' and will take a totally different set of circumstances to make the wire vibrate. Remedy, change/increase the rig tension to shift the natural frequency to occur at a harmonic condition much higher than you normally sail.

Sometimes in very high wind conditions long distance passage sailors experience violent mast pumping (induced harmonic response) when the wind across the sails and mast is 'matching' the vibratory exitation node (natural frequency) of the mast ... on such boats the sailor then simply applies tension to a running backstay etc., or can simply pull on one of the shrouds perpendicularly with a length of line to a winch and the tension imparted changes the natural frequency to the system/part that is vibrating. If the mast is vibrating (pumping) you can easily 'tune-out' the pumping by setting up the rigging so that the mast has more (forward) 'bow' to it. Traditional masts (not B&R rigs) usually should be set up with 3/4" forward bow for a single spreader rig and 1/2" forward bow for each spreader set on a multiple spreader rig; this 'bowing' changes the natural frequency of the mast by changing the geometric 'moment of inertia'

Is such an excitation dangerous? Yes indeed, as the collective/additive impact forces of such a vibration can subtract from to the fatigue endurance life of the system/component, rapidly weakening the metal, etc. components and shortening the service life; such vibrations can rapidly lead to the metals involved becoming - 'tired out'.

When this 'vibration' occurs go forward and look to see actually/exactly WHICH component is vibrating. Changing of the natural harmonic frequency is done by changing the tension, changing the geometry (by increased 'bowing' of a mast), or changing the total mass (adding a small mass/weight to the middle of the vibrating part sometimes will sometimes do it).

----
Sails can sometimes develop aerodynamic flutter ... a condition similar to the above. The fibers or membranes of sail material are elastic (almost all solid materials are elastic) and whole sections of a sail can develop the same harmonic vibratory effects. If the sail is not MAL-shaped or otherwise badly trimmed a slight change in edge tension (via halyard/sheet, etc.) which changes the shape of the sail will lessen or remedy such 'flutter'.
The leech is most prone to 'flutter', especially if the leech cord tension is ignored or there isnt a leech cord to add a bit of tension to the leech. Tightening the leech cord will change the natural (flutter) frequency here too, ... so will moving the jib fairlead car a wee bit forward if one doesnt have a leech cord.
(Very thin sectioned keels can also vibrate at a 'node speed' for the same reasons. for instance the bilge boards on the exceptionally fast Inland Lake Scows at super high speed will begin to loudly hummmmmmmm - induced harmonic vibration!!!)
Again in sails as in other 'solids', changing of the natural harmonic frequency is done by changing the tension, changing the geometry/shape, or changing the total mass (adding a mass/weight to the middle of the vibrating part sometimes will sometimes do it),

Hope this helps. :)
 

Alan

.
Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Sounds like your rig is far too loose. Mast pumping is a dangerous issue.
You say, "When I tuned the rig this spring a took some of the rake out of the mast - it looked excessive to me. " I have to ask 'what does excessive mast rake look like? Your mast rake should be set at 1 - 2 % of mast height. 39'2" or 470" X 1.5% = 7"
After you set the rake correctly, tension the shrouds to 20% and go for a sail. If mast pumping is gone, you're done. If not increase the shroud tension to 25%. Go for another sail.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,240
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I have a masthead rig so my thoughts are purely from non-experience with a Hunter fractional rig, but .... it sounds to me like you took the right tune out of your rig by relieving the back stay tension. More than rake, you are impacting the intentional bend of your mast that can be achieved with a fractional rig. I think you basically reduce rake by pulling your headstay tighter, so you may not have changed rake, but you did change bend.

We can't effectuate bend on our mast because we have a masthead rig, but I thought one of the principal reasons for a fractional rig was to induce bend. Your main sail is probably cut for the intended bend and you have now changed that balance. Personally, I don't think the pulsing is due to flutter. We have a 150 genoa with a lonnnng leach, and it is really difficult to reduce or eliminate flutter when we are beating in a strong breeze. This doesn't cause a pulsing symtom as you describe at all. You may notice it in the headsail, but I think your main sail is out of balance in a beat and you may have done that by eliminating the bend that you need in your mast. In a fractional rig, the power is in the main sail.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,240
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
and like Alan said ...

If you change your position fore and aft via the headstay and the backstay, the shrouds also have to be adjusted because they need to be tuned for the new position. But I have to wonder if there was something other than the 'look' that caused you to change it in the first place.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
If not increase the shroud tension to 25%.
Would advise against such high static loads in rigging. Rigging is primarily stainless steel which is very subject to fatigue failure, especially when above 30% of its ultimate tensile values. Setting the rig to 25% leaves only 5% for additional sail/wind and other dynamic loads before exceeding the 'fatigue endurance limit - 30% of UTS' of the ss material. Setting a rig so that it 'usually' goes well beyond 30% tension will greatly shorten the service life of the rigging; this is well OK for racing sailors who expect to change-out rigging often but not something a technically knowledgeable rigger would advise for a cruiser or long distance sailor. :)
 

Todd

.
Sep 28, 2008
10
Hunter 27 89-94 Ithaca, NY
Wow! Lots of good thoughts on this. I went down to the boat today and did tighten up on the leach line. I also moved the jib cars forward a little. I had them set to bi-sect the clew but now they are about 6 inches forward of that. The forestay does seem a little loose to me but I did not mess with it as I was running out of time. This weekend we will get out for a sail to see if any improvement has been made and I will check the mast rake as described above. Thanks to all for the helpful suggestions and insight. I will report back on this when I get it right. Only about 2 more weekends for me this year and then the long wait for April begins. Thanks again,

Todd
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,161
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Todd...... put the rake back in the mast. You do not have enough experience with this boat to know what is "excessive rake" just by looking at it. Sail the boat before you start messing with everything. By the way, you should have a little weather helm.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,240
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I will reiterate ...

Please make sure you know the difference between rake and bend since a fractional rig utilizes both. Rake is the angle of a perfectly straight mast angled (typically) toward the stern. I'm assuming that because you have a furler attached with your head stay that you didn't make any adjustment to the head stay (please correct me if I am making the wrong assumption). If your mast is raked slightly astern, you adjust the rake with your forestay, not your backstay (unless your backstay was a rigid rod). I will acknowledge that I am not accounting for the reduction of stretch in the forestay when you relieved tension on the backstay (that would impact rake slightly).

What your backstay is doing is inducing bend in the mast because the forestay is locking the rake in place while the very top of the mast bends because it is unsupported by a forestay. This bend, I assume, is desired by the Hunter rig designers and the sail designers would cut the sail specifically for the desired bend. If you eliminated the bend, you created an imbalance. It's like trying to sail a windsurfing rig with no tension in the downhaul to bend the mast to the shape of the sail. You have an unbalanced rig.

I don't think the flutter in the leach of your headsail is going to make any difference and I think it is a waste of time to be focusing on the set of your fairleads. The symptom is a pumping mast ... the genny has nothing to do with it. But then again, I could be wrong!
 

Todd

.
Sep 28, 2008
10
Hunter 27 89-94 Ithaca, NY
Scott, it is a fair point. I know the difference between rake and bend but I do tend, incorrectly, to use rake for both. In this case I took some of the bend out of the mast this spring. It looked quite severe even when compared to other fractonal rigs in my marina and even as I currently have it the bend is a bit more than most. Gonna have to play with it and find what is correct for this boat.

Todd
 
B

bjviking40

reply to todd

Todd,

You likely have a Z-Spar rig.

The rake in the mast should be noticable which keeps the luff of the mainsail taut.

The "pumping" or vibration you experience may be due to the mainsail not the jib.

A test to check this out might be to place a line at your lowest cringle or grommet (reefing point) on your main and pull the main down tight at the luff. ( cunningham). This would ease the amount of slack in the luff of your main and partly compensate for your loss of rake.

If you find this lessens the "pump" then add more rake to the mast to tighten the luff.

If you overdo the rake of the mast, the leech of the mainsail will flutter and can be controlled by the leech line. ( the small line at the back of the mainsail needs to be tightened to remove the flutter at the back of the mainsail)

Other causes might be a rig too loose all round. Check out how much the forestay deflects when beating.

Hope this may help.

BJ



Greetings! I have a 1990 Hunter 27 which I purchased last fall. This is my first larger >18ft sailboat. Question is:

When I am beating upwind I get a fairly strong pulsing in the headsail and forestay. It is a fractional rig so the top of the mast is also vibrating more than I am used to. It has RF. When I tuned the rig this spring a took some of the rake out of the mast - it looked excessive to me. She exhibits no weather helm to speak of and sails well enough on all points of sail but in a strong wind I get this pulse/vibration when beating. Any thoughts here would be gretaly appreciated.

Todd
 
Jun 5, 2004
209
- - Eugene, OR
Noting that you said you took some of the bend out of your mast, it may be that you have insufficient bend for the cut of your mainsail. Bending the mast, which a backstay adjuster does for a fractional rig, pulls sail fabricl forward, flattening the mid section of the sail. Without the bend, your draft may be too deep and too far back. As previously suggested, go back to the recommended tuning, then make your changes incrementally, testing the result in a variety of conditions before making further changes.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
 
Status
Not open for further replies.