Just curious. Someone told me that the total Jib Sheet (foot = 8.92ft) length (1 line going through the jib, pulled to port or starboard through travelers led back to cockpit. Should be about 30ft per side, or total about 60ft. Is this correct? The boat has a furled working jib. Steve
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Not enough
To tell you the truth, I don't quite remember. The boat is only a couple of months old to me ("new" old boat) and all I did was follow instructions to wrap the jib up until it wasn't showing any more. I don't think it hit the stops initially. When the wind started blowing, however, we did turn it all the way, which wasn't more than a turn or two. I had to actually cut the figure eight knots from each of the sheets and wrap EVERYTHING that was left around the sail... but by this time the wind was high and the sheet did not ride up the forestay more than half way and secure the upper part of the sail, which partially unwrapped. I would say that I had an area of the leech about two feet by six flapping in the breeze... despite the lower half of the sail being secured with all kinds of line... beyond just the sheets. You might conclude that the wrap of the furl was not tight enough... probably. I remember when we furled it originally, it was under way, although not windy and my son had a hard time pulling the furling line, although UNFURLING was as easy as a windowshade. Stu said three wraps should do it. I will take that to be correct, although I will look at what other boats in the area are doing. I think it is a matter of wrapping TIGHT, although this may not be the best for drying the sail out. The "fix" to this would be to wrap it when the sail is dry. If it is raining, go back a day or so later, when it is dry and open the sail, let it dry and refurl. Any other suggestions from others welcome.
To tell you the truth, I don't quite remember. The boat is only a couple of months old to me ("new" old boat) and all I did was follow instructions to wrap the jib up until it wasn't showing any more. I don't think it hit the stops initially. When the wind started blowing, however, we did turn it all the way, which wasn't more than a turn or two. I had to actually cut the figure eight knots from each of the sheets and wrap EVERYTHING that was left around the sail... but by this time the wind was high and the sheet did not ride up the forestay more than half way and secure the upper part of the sail, which partially unwrapped. I would say that I had an area of the leech about two feet by six flapping in the breeze... despite the lower half of the sail being secured with all kinds of line... beyond just the sheets. You might conclude that the wrap of the furl was not tight enough... probably. I remember when we furled it originally, it was under way, although not windy and my son had a hard time pulling the furling line, although UNFURLING was as easy as a windowshade. Stu said three wraps should do it. I will take that to be correct, although I will look at what other boats in the area are doing. I think it is a matter of wrapping TIGHT, although this may not be the best for drying the sail out. The "fix" to this would be to wrap it when the sail is dry. If it is raining, go back a day or so later, when it is dry and open the sail, let it dry and refurl. Any other suggestions from others welcome.
Makes sense
Joe: Thanks for your advice... it makes sense... a good argument for two lines instead of one. Have you every considered used a snap shackle (not sure if this is the right term) to "clip" the sheet to the clew instead of tie... makes sail changes even faster, only you may have this bouncing on the deck when you tack or jibe. Just wanted to know how others might handle it. Your idea of separately tieing up the furl with lines other than sheets is interesting... do you tie those to the clew also? Or what else can one do to secure the furl? Any type of bungie cord? Steve
Joe: Thanks for your advice... it makes sense... a good argument for two lines instead of one. Have you every considered used a snap shackle (not sure if this is the right term) to "clip" the sheet to the clew instead of tie... makes sail changes even faster, only you may have this bouncing on the deck when you tack or jibe. Just wanted to know how others might handle it. Your idea of separately tieing up the furl with lines other than sheets is interesting... do you tie those to the clew also? Or what else can one do to secure the furl? Any type of bungie cord? Steve
More Jib Sheet Stuff
Steve The three wraps I mentioned is only for "normal" conditions. If you are facing heavier winds, other methods are required. Good idea to check other boats, although there's no guarantee they know what they're doing. Wrapping tight is also not necessarily the answer, because all you're doing is crushing the sail. If it's going to get THAT windy, simply take the sail off: you'll be better off, and you get to exercise your system, check the condition of the halyard, the sail itself, the extrusions and its screws, and everything else associated with the system. If it's to make sure you are covered for unexpected conditions (usually calm, no problem, but it might blow hard sometimes), then I understand your concerns and issues. Tying your jib sheets tight to keep them off the deck isn't a bad idea, but the jib sheets do NOT hold the furler in place when furled, the furling line does it. The jib sheets DO keep the sail from starting to flog. Think again about it: to pull the sail OUT, you have to UNTIE (uncleat) the furling line, and THEN pull the jib sheets; this turning pulls the furling line forward, and starts wrapping it around the drum. When you furl the sail, you pull the furling line, which is now taking the furling line OFF the drum, and slacken the jib sheets. If you like to keep your jib sheets off the deck, and also like them long, either tie them around the winch with a half hitch or two, or if you have turning blocks aft of the winch, just put a quick figure eight knot in the doubled up end of the extra jib sheet line so the turning block holds the sheet (this is in the middle of the doubled line, NOT the figure eight knot at the end of the sheet). To balance all this out, you'll need to make sure you have enough wraps of the furling line around the drum to add jib sheet wraps when furled if you think you need more than three. Of course, you also need to check that all this furling line on the drum to start with doesn't overload the drum when the sail is out, and th drum has all the furling line on IT. There also has been literally endless discussions on this forum about shackles on jib sheets. You could try the archives, or simply wait for the hurricane of responses. To summarize: yes, they're easier to switch, however, they're headbusters! Your boat, your choice. Stu
Steve The three wraps I mentioned is only for "normal" conditions. If you are facing heavier winds, other methods are required. Good idea to check other boats, although there's no guarantee they know what they're doing. Wrapping tight is also not necessarily the answer, because all you're doing is crushing the sail. If it's going to get THAT windy, simply take the sail off: you'll be better off, and you get to exercise your system, check the condition of the halyard, the sail itself, the extrusions and its screws, and everything else associated with the system. If it's to make sure you are covered for unexpected conditions (usually calm, no problem, but it might blow hard sometimes), then I understand your concerns and issues. Tying your jib sheets tight to keep them off the deck isn't a bad idea, but the jib sheets do NOT hold the furler in place when furled, the furling line does it. The jib sheets DO keep the sail from starting to flog. Think again about it: to pull the sail OUT, you have to UNTIE (uncleat) the furling line, and THEN pull the jib sheets; this turning pulls the furling line forward, and starts wrapping it around the drum. When you furl the sail, you pull the furling line, which is now taking the furling line OFF the drum, and slacken the jib sheets. If you like to keep your jib sheets off the deck, and also like them long, either tie them around the winch with a half hitch or two, or if you have turning blocks aft of the winch, just put a quick figure eight knot in the doubled up end of the extra jib sheet line so the turning block holds the sheet (this is in the middle of the doubled line, NOT the figure eight knot at the end of the sheet). To balance all this out, you'll need to make sure you have enough wraps of the furling line around the drum to add jib sheet wraps when furled if you think you need more than three. Of course, you also need to check that all this furling line on the drum to start with doesn't overload the drum when the sail is out, and th drum has all the furling line on IT. There also has been literally endless discussions on this forum about shackles on jib sheets. You could try the archives, or simply wait for the hurricane of responses. To summarize: yes, they're easier to switch, however, they're headbusters! Your boat, your choice. Stu
Good Avice, Stu
During the big blow, I DID notice what other boats seemed to do. Their furling seemed to be rather tight and they had more than three turns, perhaps five. The ones that were done properly had NO part of the sail flapping in the breeze. If we have a hurricane forecast, I will take the sail off the furler, but I did not notice anyone else doing so... probably because it was a sudden condition. I was aware that the jib sheets did not hold the furler in place. The furling line on my boat is secured via a cam cleat which is mounted on the outside of the stanchions, against the side of the gunwale... the furling line is led out there, via fairleads. This may not be the best idea, since one has to virtually stand on the gunwale to keep the furling line straight to pull it. Consider that in slightly windy conditions, it takes a bit of power to pull the furler to get the jib in, it is a little difficult to position yourself with one foot against the cabin rear and the other foot on the gunwale. I would like to lead the line in a 90 degree angle up and around a winch. Would a winch be over-kill to assist furling? I have visions of mounting a swivel block somewhere on the gunwale or the side just below to allow the line to make the turn. The furler manufacturer (Shaeffer) recommends twelve feet of line in the furler to do the sail... I hope that is right, if not I might try something like fifteen... hope the drum hold that much line. (I am not using very thick line) I had a Clipper 26 in Florida that had a snapshackle to tie into the 150 Genny. I know what you are talking about... the "headbanger"... also played heck with the deck if you weren't careful. This boat has a new paint job, so maybe I will use the bowline knots... Steve
During the big blow, I DID notice what other boats seemed to do. Their furling seemed to be rather tight and they had more than three turns, perhaps five. The ones that were done properly had NO part of the sail flapping in the breeze. If we have a hurricane forecast, I will take the sail off the furler, but I did not notice anyone else doing so... probably because it was a sudden condition. I was aware that the jib sheets did not hold the furler in place. The furling line on my boat is secured via a cam cleat which is mounted on the outside of the stanchions, against the side of the gunwale... the furling line is led out there, via fairleads. This may not be the best idea, since one has to virtually stand on the gunwale to keep the furling line straight to pull it. Consider that in slightly windy conditions, it takes a bit of power to pull the furler to get the jib in, it is a little difficult to position yourself with one foot against the cabin rear and the other foot on the gunwale. I would like to lead the line in a 90 degree angle up and around a winch. Would a winch be over-kill to assist furling? I have visions of mounting a swivel block somewhere on the gunwale or the side just below to allow the line to make the turn. The furler manufacturer (Shaeffer) recommends twelve feet of line in the furler to do the sail... I hope that is right, if not I might try something like fifteen... hope the drum hold that much line. (I am not using very thick line) I had a Clipper 26 in Florida that had a snapshackle to tie into the 150 Genny. I know what you are talking about... the "headbanger"... also played heck with the deck if you weren't careful. This boat has a new paint job, so maybe I will use the bowline knots... Steve
Sail Repair
Steve, there is no business in Everett that repairs sails. The best place that I know of is Rush Sails on East Lake Ave.near Ballard They do outstanding work and get the sail back to you quickly. When I had my 163% jib cut down for a furler, it was only $50. Their prices are very reasonable. It's a long way to travel though. I take my jib off of the furler in the winter. I don't see any sense in exposing it to the elements every day since I don't go that much when it's so cold. By the way, we don't get any hurricanes like Florida. Tuesday is as bad as it gets. The down side is, we get no warning. Sean S/V Carnaby Street
Steve, there is no business in Everett that repairs sails. The best place that I know of is Rush Sails on East Lake Ave.near Ballard They do outstanding work and get the sail back to you quickly. When I had my 163% jib cut down for a furler, it was only $50. Their prices are very reasonable. It's a long way to travel though. I take my jib off of the furler in the winter. I don't see any sense in exposing it to the elements every day since I don't go that much when it's so cold. By the way, we don't get any hurricanes like Florida. Tuesday is as bad as it gets. The down side is, we get no warning. Sean S/V Carnaby Street
More
Steve This is fun! You noted: "I would like to lead the line in a 90 degree angle up and around a winch. Would a winch be over-kill to assist furling? I have visions of mounting a swivel block somewhere on the gunwale or the side just below to allow the line to make the turn." I wouldn't use a winch. Ever. Even my ProFurl says you can, but I wouldn't. You'd lose the "feel" and perhaps break something, where if you find binding by hand, you'd know and would look for something being jammed. Biggest culprit is the line binding in the drum, open or closed. You use a winch, you break the drum, rather than simply going forward and finding out what the problem was. As far as the cockpit end of your furling line, it sounds like you could use a better fair lead. What we have is the line, led through blocks on the stanchions, to the forward end of the pulpit (forward stanchion base of the aft end stainless rails). The base of this has a swivel block mounted on the rail. Above this is a rail mounted small Johnson cleat. The swivel block gives me plenty of leeway in angles to either pull or tail the furling line, and the cleat is about as secure as can be for mking sure the furling line stays where it is supposed to be. Seems more secure than a cam cleat. Always better to go with longer furling line and do the "balance" work I described earlier. Hard to make the line longer (although you do have a chance with the furling line if your stanchion blocks are spaced far apart - but why bother). Good luck, I'll be offline until Sunday - going sailing. Stu
Steve This is fun! You noted: "I would like to lead the line in a 90 degree angle up and around a winch. Would a winch be over-kill to assist furling? I have visions of mounting a swivel block somewhere on the gunwale or the side just below to allow the line to make the turn." I wouldn't use a winch. Ever. Even my ProFurl says you can, but I wouldn't. You'd lose the "feel" and perhaps break something, where if you find binding by hand, you'd know and would look for something being jammed. Biggest culprit is the line binding in the drum, open or closed. You use a winch, you break the drum, rather than simply going forward and finding out what the problem was. As far as the cockpit end of your furling line, it sounds like you could use a better fair lead. What we have is the line, led through blocks on the stanchions, to the forward end of the pulpit (forward stanchion base of the aft end stainless rails). The base of this has a swivel block mounted on the rail. Above this is a rail mounted small Johnson cleat. The swivel block gives me plenty of leeway in angles to either pull or tail the furling line, and the cleat is about as secure as can be for mking sure the furling line stays where it is supposed to be. Seems more secure than a cam cleat. Always better to go with longer furling line and do the "balance" work I described earlier. Hard to make the line longer (although you do have a chance with the furling line if your stanchion blocks are spaced far apart - but why bother). Good luck, I'll be offline until Sunday - going sailing. Stu
Sean Ive got GOOD news....maybe
Sean: Thanks for the reference to Rush sails. I have heard that they do good work and are extremely nice to deal with. However, Churchill Bros, right around the corner from the marina, also repairs sails. I have put a link to their website. I also called them to confirm that they DO sail repairs. They are open from 8:00 to 5:30 weekdays and from 9:00 to 12:00 on Saturday. I have not dealt with them, yet, but I will get an estimate. If it is too high, I will get another one from Rush. I really would like to do SOME sailing this winter, but if the weather is going to be really miserable, taking the jib off as well as the main for the winter would not be out of hand. I have been living here almost seven years, come to Washington via Kansas City from Fort Lauderdale. I KNOW we do not get hurricanes... at least with THEM there is lots of warning... we do get "Norwesters", which actually can be worse (Snow, Hail, etc.) I have been out in 12 foot seas in a 26 foot boat and 8 foot seas in a 16 foot boat in Florida, so I am not afraid of high water, but I would NOT have wanted to be out even in POSESSION SOUND (let alone Puget Sound) during THAT storm! Thanks for your information. Hope to see you around the marina. Steve
Sean: Thanks for the reference to Rush sails. I have heard that they do good work and are extremely nice to deal with. However, Churchill Bros, right around the corner from the marina, also repairs sails. I have put a link to their website. I also called them to confirm that they DO sail repairs. They are open from 8:00 to 5:30 weekdays and from 9:00 to 12:00 on Saturday. I have not dealt with them, yet, but I will get an estimate. If it is too high, I will get another one from Rush. I really would like to do SOME sailing this winter, but if the weather is going to be really miserable, taking the jib off as well as the main for the winter would not be out of hand. I have been living here almost seven years, come to Washington via Kansas City from Fort Lauderdale. I KNOW we do not get hurricanes... at least with THEM there is lots of warning... we do get "Norwesters", which actually can be worse (Snow, Hail, etc.) I have been out in 12 foot seas in a 26 foot boat and 8 foot seas in a 16 foot boat in Florida, so I am not afraid of high water, but I would NOT have wanted to be out even in POSESSION SOUND (let alone Puget Sound) during THAT storm! Thanks for your information. Hope to see you around the marina. Steve
Hi Steve, last Tuesday would have been an...
interesting sail around Gedney for anyone crazy enough to venture out. We're number one on the 40 open wait list so I expect we'll be moving our boat down from Semi-ah-moo shortly. At least that's my excuse for not going out, and I'm standing by it. Ha, ha. Do you belong to Mill Town? Hope to see you around the marina soon. Terry S/V Belle-Vie
interesting sail around Gedney for anyone crazy enough to venture out. We're number one on the 40 open wait list so I expect we'll be moving our boat down from Semi-ah-moo shortly. At least that's my excuse for not going out, and I'm standing by it. Ha, ha. Do you belong to Mill Town? Hope to see you around the marina soon. Terry S/V Belle-Vie
Terry:
Terry: How big is your boat? Would be a nice trip from Semi-ah-moo down to here. Couldn't find anything closer? We came from Gig Harbor (where we bought the boat) through Oak Harbor (what a drive from Everett!) while we waited for Everett, and now we are here. In YOUR boat, I might have tried being out in the mess, but not mine. At least, not willingly. I HAVE been out in some soup, but Tuesday was actually scary. Another boat in the yard, on chocks actually was blown over. I would like to know more about MilL Town. They don't have a website do they? We are thinking of joining the Power Squadron. What do you think? Steve
Terry: How big is your boat? Would be a nice trip from Semi-ah-moo down to here. Couldn't find anything closer? We came from Gig Harbor (where we bought the boat) through Oak Harbor (what a drive from Everett!) while we waited for Everett, and now we are here. In YOUR boat, I might have tried being out in the mess, but not mine. At least, not willingly. I HAVE been out in some soup, but Tuesday was actually scary. Another boat in the yard, on chocks actually was blown over. I would like to know more about MilL Town. They don't have a website do they? We are thinking of joining the Power Squadron. What do you think? Steve
Shackles on jib sheets....
... I don't recommend using metal shackles on jib sheets unless you can afford the "J Lock" type. They open under load and won't hang up in the rigging. The one's I have seen are well over $100 a piece. The main reason for not using shackles is the danger they pose to crew and equipment when they are flogging around and their propensity to get hung up on the rigging. Also, since the sheets would always be rigged the same way, the wear points would remain concentrated in one small area. There are alternatives to the traditional metal shackle, but I have no experience with them. Besides, a bowline is the sailor's most important knot. (in my opinion) and it's free! Now with spinnaker sheets, it's a different matter. Some kind of clip or shackle is recommended... preferably one that can be operated with one hand. I might add that the big time race boats use fancy shackles on their jib sheets, but ... hey... they have a pretty big budget.
... I don't recommend using metal shackles on jib sheets unless you can afford the "J Lock" type. They open under load and won't hang up in the rigging. The one's I have seen are well over $100 a piece. The main reason for not using shackles is the danger they pose to crew and equipment when they are flogging around and their propensity to get hung up on the rigging. Also, since the sheets would always be rigged the same way, the wear points would remain concentrated in one small area. There are alternatives to the traditional metal shackle, but I have no experience with them. Besides, a bowline is the sailor's most important knot. (in my opinion) and it's free! Now with spinnaker sheets, it's a different matter. Some kind of clip or shackle is recommended... preferably one that can be operated with one hand. I might add that the big time race boats use fancy shackles on their jib sheets, but ... hey... they have a pretty big budget.
Convinced Me
Thanks for the opinion and info. I think I will continue doing as the former owner had done... with the bowline. I agree that that shackle DID mess with the rigging and was a pain... now that I remember it (over seven years ago). We are talking about a light working jib, not a huge Genoa, anyway. I am going to buy 75 ft. of line and cut it in half with a bowline to the clew in each. That way it can be used on any sail we decide to put up. Just have to make sure the halyard will bring down the jib easily and quickly. Steve
Thanks for the opinion and info. I think I will continue doing as the former owner had done... with the bowline. I agree that that shackle DID mess with the rigging and was a pain... now that I remember it (over seven years ago). We are talking about a light working jib, not a huge Genoa, anyway. I am going to buy 75 ft. of line and cut it in half with a bowline to the clew in each. That way it can be used on any sail we decide to put up. Just have to make sure the halyard will bring down the jib easily and quickly. Steve
Steve, what is your e-mail address so we can...
take our discussion off line. Ours is tandpcox@verizon.net. Terry
take our discussion off line. Ours is tandpcox@verizon.net. Terry
Churchill Bros.
Steve, I didn't know they did sails. I had Dean build me a sail cover and I can tell you he does outstanding work. I just saw a dodger he built and it was also awesome. I wouldn't think a seam would a very expensive repair. Sean
Steve, I didn't know they did sails. I had Dean build me a sail cover and I can tell you he does outstanding work. I just saw a dodger he built and it was also awesome. I wouldn't think a seam would a very expensive repair. Sean
Maybe more than a seam!
Just unfurled the sail. It looks like a length of the leach tore away from the rest about maybe 5 feet or less, about eight feet up from the clew. Right at the edge about two feet or less from the leech. Maybe a patch? Hopefully not too time consuming ($50/Hr). I saw the dodger that Churchill had on display. Made my mouth water... it would actually fit my boat! Oh, well, let them give me a decent estimate on the sail. By the way, it is a woman that does the sail repair, not a guy. Hope she works fast. Steve
Just unfurled the sail. It looks like a length of the leach tore away from the rest about maybe 5 feet or less, about eight feet up from the clew. Right at the edge about two feet or less from the leech. Maybe a patch? Hopefully not too time consuming ($50/Hr). I saw the dodger that Churchill had on display. Made my mouth water... it would actually fit my boat! Oh, well, let them give me a decent estimate on the sail. By the way, it is a woman that does the sail repair, not a guy. Hope she works fast. SteveIf anyone is curious
Just got the estimate from Churchill Bros for the sail repair. The estimate was about 1 1/2hr of labor which was a pretty good deal, I think. Steve
Just got the estimate from Churchill Bros for the sail repair. The estimate was about 1 1/2hr of labor which was a pretty good deal, I think. Steve
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